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Any other suggestions, anyone?

--lylwik

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Originally Posted By: paul
lylwik

You might want to see if you can grow sugar beets in your zone.

Quote:
The energy requirement for converting sugar into ethanol is about half that for corn.

Quote:
Sugar beet byproducts include beet pulp, which can be sold for animal feed, and molasses, which is also sold for animal feed or further processed to extract more sugar.

Quote:
Sugar beets have gained a greater share of U.S. sugar production over the past decade, now accounting for 58.8 percent of the nation’s sugar output while sugarcane fell to 41.2 percent. Sugar producers and the members of farmer-owned cooperatives are increasingly interested in new technologies and product markets for their crops, including the growing ethanol market.

I would think that by burning any unused parts of the plant
the ashes could be used as fertilizer.
also this would avoid alot of methane release due to decomposition.
Quote:
farmers to take ownership of their processing facilities

http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/rbs/pub/sep06/ethanol.htm

then you might want to look into these web sites.

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/article.jsp?article_id=2751

http://www.rurdev.usda.gov/rbs/energy.htm

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/article.jsp?article_id=5441


if you grow sugar beets or a small plant you should be able to
make ( M ) shaped structures to place every 10 - 20 feet in a row, you can then cover the plants with plastic sheeting , then place strips of wood or metal on top of the plastic sheeting where the ( V ) part of the ( M ) is to hold the sheeting down.

this should work , and there might be funding available to test it.
this should capture the evaporated water and direct it back onto the plants.

try a row.
===


The "M" idea is a neat one, but I don't think it'd work well with tall plants like corn.

Also, about the bubble idea for trapping water....
I don't think you'll ever get down to the dew point temperature (where water will condense) with a heat trapping bubble. Maybe when the temp. got up to 120 F water would start condensing on the plastic, but this would be a whole different ecosystem for the plants and soils affected. Just think of the new pests and diseases that would opportunistically proliferate in that new "climate."

As temperatures cool during the night, some unique system might be utilized to enhance the capture of dew; but overall I think we need to avoid large, resource-intensive, "unnatural" systems.
===

...btw: semicolons separate dependant and independant clauses within a sentence, not two complete "sentences."
I rarely know if I'm using it correctly, but that is the definition that I learned.
Spelling and punctuation make expression of ideas more universally understandable, but a more creative writing of the language can often help reveal the context and import of an idea.
...or words to that effect. So while I appreciate the effort and effect demonstrated by a well written post, I also appreciate the diversity that develops. It's all good, but each still is what it is.
===

...bot....
Gosh, done on a large enough scale, using bubbles to trap transpired water might even start affecting the weather for areas "downwind" from the bubbled areas. Global dehumidification might result.

I still think we need to get more water up on the dry lands and desert margins, but I think there must be some way to use all these newly generated icebergs to help out with the re-greening of the lands.

Then we can start growing lots of biomass for CO2 sequestration, ethanol production, bio-oil production, bio-char production, food production, etc.

Speaking of biology, plants need oxygen too:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Why_is_oxygen_needed_for_photosynthesis
"Plants of course do need some oxygen for the same reason that we do. They use oxygen in respiration - the process in which food is 'burned' to release energy. However photosynthesis produces more oxygen than the plant uses up in respiration, so the excess is removed from the plant into the atmosphere."

...and as an example of the cycles that plants go through--having evolved enmeshed in daily (and other) cycles--here is an abstract about the complexity of cycles in the "simplest" of organisms.
Originally Posted By: Journal of Phycology
Metabolic rhythms of a diazotrophic cyanobacterium, cyanothece sp. strain atcc 51142, heterotrophically grown in continuous dark
Aerobic unicellular cyanobacteria temporally separate nitrogen fixation and photosynthetic activity to protect oxygen-sensitive nitrogenase. Diurnal metabolic oscillations in the unicellular diazotroph, Cyanothece sp. str. CGD occurred even when cells were grown under continuous dark conditions, as determined in this study. The metabolic processes of nitrogen fixation, respiration, carbohydrate storage, and nitrogen storage all remained highly synchronized during heterotrophic growth, despite the absence of light signals. This shows the importance of circadian regulation in this unicellular cyanobacterium. The nitrogenase complex is apparently tightly regulated at the transcriptional and post-translational levels. Carbohydrates accumulated during the subjective light phase were metabolized in a burst of respiration in the subjective dark phase. The utilization of carbohydrates occurred at the same time as the intense period of nitrogenase activity and downregulation of the capacity for photosynthetic oxygen evolution. Abundance of the D1 protein of photosystem II in Cyanothece sp. str. CGD remained relatively constant under continuous darkness, but the psbA transcript was more abundant in the subjective light phase. Accumulation of the psaAB gene products in photosystem I was highest in the subjective dark phase. The storage of fixed nitrogen as cyanophycin granules also exhibited periodic changes, with the amount of cyanophycin being greatest after the peak of nitrogenase activity. These results strongly implicate a circadian regulatory mechanism operating on these metabolic processes, independent of light cues, and stress the importance of circadian rhythms in global metabolic regulation in this unicellular cyanobacterium.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/119036384/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0


While I think the genetic modification of life--to create a cellulose digester/ethanol producer--is a very creative idea, I worry about the consequences for a world also dependant on cellulose for its integrity.
Cellulose digesters currently live in the microclimate of the gut of ruminants; hopefully they won't be modified to start living in room conditions.
As with plastic digesting bacteria, I wonder how they know when the material has been "trashed" and is "ready" to be digested?
===

I think solar pyrolysis of cellulose might be a better route to pursue, over the production of cellulosic ethanol. This still leaves room for sugar-based ethanol, and is much more carbon negative, simple, and doesn't rely on genetic modification--and the ensueing "big-business" implementation models.

~ smile


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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heres a video about growing foods indoors.
there is a vast array of posibilities.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipy1tF5DU-Y

samwik , I havent read all of your post yet , but will later today.

you do know that you can tie a plastic bag around a tree branch , and water will condense inside the bag.

you dont need 120 F temperatures.

it appears that the U.K. is not sucking the hind tit on this.
below is a link to a 220 acre greenhouse complex under construction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAGEhR_XukI





3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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I forgot to mention that my farm is hilly with shallow topsoil that I'd like to keep. So row crops are pretty much out of the question.

Switchgrass intrigues me because from what I've read it prevents erosion and it seems to yield quite a bit of ethanol. I don't remember if I've mentioned this before, but much of my farm is currently in CRP. I'd rather be paid for creating something than be paid for creating nothing.

Has anyone grown switchgrass or seen it grown?

Oh, also, my part of Missouri is, I think, on the wrong side of the lime line for sugar beets and too far north for sugar cane, although sorghum grains seem to do well there and are, I believe, the current crop of choice for ethanol production. Amaranth?

--lylwik

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lylwik

they are building refineries to process switchgrass , they might
already be built , might not.

unless you are just speculating for a future crop , you might want to keep the free subsidies until the infrastructure is in place.

they might let you grow the switchgrass as long as you dont
sell it , this way you could speculate wether or not the crop
would be a profitable one.

your county agent should be able to give you this information.

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=grass-makes-better-ethanol-than-corn

this excerpt is from an article in the above link.
dated jan-08-2008 , so you might need to check on the whereabouts
of any refineries , and take the distance to wherever you would need to transport the switchgrass to into consideration.

Quote:
because right now there are no biorefineries built that handle cellulosic material" like that which switchgrass provides




Quote:
But even a native prairie grass needs a helping hand from scientists and farmers to deliver the yields necessary to help ethanol become a viable alternative to petroleum-derived gasoline, Vogel argues. "To really maximize their yield potential, you need to provide nitrogen fertilization," he says, as well as improved breeding techniques and genetic strains. "Low input systems are just not going to be able to get the energy per acre needed to provide feed, fuel and fiber."



once you harvest the crop , and before the next years growing season , would there be a possibility that burning the dead tops
of the grass would kill the root system?

according to the above excerpt you will need to fertilize the switchgrass , and it might be that some , if not all of the needed nitrogen can be had by doing a controlled burn of just the dead tops.

perhaps a few days after a good soaker.




3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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Thanks, Paul. That's really helpful. (I have to admit that I've mostly scanned the material. It got me over-excited.)

Family oral history has it that the Iowa Indians who originally had my farm burned it off every fall. That, if I remember my agronomy, strengthens the root systems of grass and, I think, releases nutrients. I'm not sure, though.

The information in the "Scientific American" article, which I mostly read, reminds me of how all grasses and many other plants need to be maintained.

You've confirmed the feeling I've developed that switchgrass is right for my farm and probably for a lot of other farms and the country in general. Now, the problem may be the policy. That could be very tricky, but I'm working on it.

Also, does anyone notice in the picture from "Scientific American" the pure, simple, geometric beauty of what I would like to call the American steppes?

Again, thanks, Paul. That's exactly the kind of information I was looking for, and I think it really helps this thread and could eventually be reflected in the development of energy policy and agricultural policy internationally. Good work.

--lylwik

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Thank you lylwik

For such a nice and positive reply.

The indians lived here a long , long time before we did.

and they were much more connected to nature.

they probably hunted on your property !

the reason they burned the grasses might have been to insure
that the animals they hunted had a proper , fattening food source.

and may have reduced the number of insects at the same time.

such as ticks and fleas , that would have infected the buffalo as they roamed , and the deer and the antelope * as they played ,
on the range.

If I have helped in any way , I am glad.




* There are no true antelope native to the Americas. The Pronghorn "Antelope" of the Great Plains belongs to family Antilocapridae, not Bovidae.




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Now, to answer the original question, I personally don't believe much in subsidies. I'd prefer to practice diversified farming to cover the potential of a crop failure.

I'm going to stop at that for right now.

--lylwik

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