Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online Now
0 members (), 181 guests, and 2 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Top Posters(30 Days)
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 17 of 20 1 2 15 16 17 18 19 20
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940

"Pretending to know things in theosophy"
Knowing is such a vague term when applied by people who abuse language. Still, inowing about is not the same as knowing in.

"I remain convinced you have no knowledge of extrasensory perception"

"Knowledge of" is ambiguous. Back in the day I did quite a bit of reading in ESP - a sufficient amount to convince me that it's mostly fraud and self-deception.


I do not claim to have mastery of the subject of theosophy. Nor does one need to have mastery of it to state with reasonable certainty that it is incompatible with the practice of actual science.

"Sheesh. You're a blinding light of intellectual and spiritual inspiration."
Playing tinlike may make you feel good, but it doesn't do anything to increase actual understanding - yours or anyone else's.

.
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend


Knowing is such a vague term when applied by people who abuse language. Still, inowing about is not the same as knowing in.


You mean knowing of and knowing? You haven't yet convinced me you know anything about theology let alone decidedly established a knowing in. By the way some think spelling incorrectly is abusive to language..just a thought.. smile

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

"Knowledge of" is ambiguous. Back in the day I did quite a bit of reading in ESP - a sufficient amount to convince me that it's mostly fraud and self-deception.


I see..... reading a book or books on ESP is like reading a book or books on brain surgery. You suppose it would make you a brain surgeon?
You convinced yourself after reading a book, or books....now that is something, if not at least.. entertaining.


Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

I do not claim to have mastery of the subject of theosophy. Nor does one need to have mastery of it to state with reasonable certainty that it is incompatible with the practice of actual science.


OK. I can like a person who can make a claim toward something he has an opinion of. I have met quite a few. Nice people, who live their lives and die happy.

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

Playing tinlike may make you feel good, but it doesn't do anything to increase actual understanding - yours or anyone else's.


Its all a matter of perspective ain't it. Have you looked in the mirror lately?


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
I have read books on ESP and I have read numerous scientific articles and I have witnessed alleged ESP events. In fact, I got to do a bit of debunking of some of them. I might relate one story in particular some time - not that you're interested, but someone who is genuinely open-minded, inquisitive and humble might be able to learn something important.

Also, I took a course in college called esoteric psychology in which we studied the psychology of belief (systems). A large part of the course was the study of religious experience, ESP, etc. Of course, actually studying under a real scientist doesn't count in the world of tinlike, but there you have it.

The comparison to neurosurgery is utterly ridiculous and dishonest. We know that brains exist. We do not know that ESP exists. When actual scientists get involved the alleged abilities vaporize.


"Have you looked in the mirror lately?"
Some people never get out of third grade.

Conversing with you is a complete waste of time. I could actually be reading something interesting and informative rather than reading your tripe. I could be learning and teaching from people who actually display humility and knowledge instead of talking about it.

Just go on living your arrogant, unintelligent delusion and excreting your pearls of distilled stupidity across the net.


Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
The idea that you read books and took classes from/with naysayers, skeptics and disbelievers doesn't impress me. The history of the world is full of examples of disbelief and the evolution of awareness in which humanity takes a 180 degree turn to discover something they only ignored rather than could not see.
Card tricks and fortune telling comprises the majority of the superstitious thinking mind when it comes to the study of the enhanced senses, and since one who does not study the self hasn't the experience another has in the inward meditative process of enhanced perception, there is no comparison and no machine that can translate thought and experience into facts and data.
Such is the loss that takes place in mans narrow minded approach to those experiences he has not had nor will have as long as he decidedly rejects what he does not understand.

I agree this conversation has not produced anything in the way of change in your ability to accept your own prejudice. But never is planting seeds a waste of time. It's unfortunate but also typical of the evolving soul in that your mind is so set on a course of disbelief, and the authority for you is someone's opinion written and idealized in a book and authenticated by a group in belief. Such is the downfall of the awareness of reality that has occurred in religion and the church. Science from your descriptions and your beliefs is described much like a church made up of beliefs and thought patterns taken in a direction and limited by the minds inability to comprehend such as those things that have not been experienced or tagged by peer groups of belief and approved of.

C'est la vie.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940

"The idea that you read books and took classes from/with naysayers, skeptics and disbelievers doesn't impress me"

Impressing anyone is my a goal. I merely corrected your incorrect assertions. Impressing you is no more to be desired than impressing the drunks down at the local pub.

"...one who does not study the self ..."
There is a difference between actually studying and claiming to or believing that one studies a thing. Actual scientists are aware of the tendency of humans towards delusion and fraud and when actual scientific methods account for these things, the positive outcomes have a curious tendency to disappear. Your claims to study "the self" are comical.

"your own prejudice. "
Also comical.

Your slavish devotion to your cult prevents you from accepting that a person could carefully examine alleged claims and come to a negative conclusion. Anyone who rejects the inane claims of theosophy etc. is just accepting authority. This is a pretext for your not actually studying the subject, but in pretending to study the subject. Lots of people claim to "study" things or to have "done research" while their every word belies a gross misunderstanding of even the basics.

Evolution is a case in point. Not quite, but almost, universally, when we find a person who rejects evolution, we find a person who asserts he "has studied the subject" but who makes assertions that demonstrate unequivocally that he has not. Generally this is because of the comic book understanding of science, combined with the person's completely mistaken notion of what constitutes "research." It's as if you're trying to explain to a child the difference between reading and "reading critically" and the child stamps his feet down and says, "I AM READING CRITICALLY!" or "I AM STUDYING!"

Still waiting for you to say one intelligent thing on the subject of evolution (or anything else for that matter, but since this thread is about evolution, you could start there).



Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

Impressing anyone is my a goal.

Not sure what you're really trying to say..

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
I merely corrected your incorrect assertions.


You mean you made your own assertions to counter mine as you perceive them...

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

There is a difference between actually studying and claiming to or believing that one studies a thing.


Yes I agree.

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
Actual scientists are aware of the tendency of humans towards delusion and fraud and when actual scientific methods account for these things, the positive outcomes have a curious tendency to disappear. Your claims to study "the self" are comical.


Actual scientific methods are not specified in regards to this conversation or to the study of the self, only implied idealistic references in regard to your beliefs and your opinions.

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

"your own prejudice. "
Also comical.


Immensely.

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

Your slavish devotion to your cult prevents you from accepting that a person could carefully examine alleged claims and come to a negative conclusion.


Not so oh negative one. Everyone sees and accepts reality according to their understanding and comprehensive level of intellectual discernment, which if negative is often heavily influenced by belief and the current standards of education, and the vague possibility that the system is plugged into Truth or just summaries of conjecture and belief.

Not so sure there is any course which defines the meaning of life...Is there?

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

Anyone who rejects the inane claims of theosophy etc. is just accepting authority.


I'm not sure which claims you are referring to. The subject comprises several thousands of years of study, and hundreds of thousands of books, (most of which have been grossly mistranslated).

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

Lots of people claim to "study" things or to have "done research" while their every word belies a gross misunderstanding of even the basics.


So you have proven in this discussion regarding your claims to have considered this conversation based on the labels "science" and "theosophy". You seem easily sphinctered whenever someone uses the label "Science."

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

Evolution is a case in point. Not quite, but almost, universally, when we find a person who rejects evolution, we find a person who asserts he "has studied the subject" but who makes assertions that demonstrate unequivocally that he has not.


In the examples of this conversation I can relate, in that what you have provided, exhibits no knowledge but instead claims toward something idealized within your beliefs, and a prejudice with a need to apply labels to your ideals.


Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

Generally this is because of the comic book understanding of science, combined with the person's completely mistaken notion of what constitutes "research." It's as if you're trying to explain to a child the difference between reading and "reading critically" and the child stamps his feet down and says, "I AM READING CRITICALLY!" or "I AM STUDYING!"


"As if" is the inference to the interpretation of thoughts generated from a level of comprehension. A child (using your example) comprehends at a different level than an adult.
On the subject of expanded conscious awareness or even psychological awareness, a person who idealizes reality strictly within the limits of measure created by the instruments of current comprehension will need to accept that evolution will supersede technological and comprehensive idealism whenever one decides something relative is a constant.
The idea that every human experiences everything exactly the same would limit mans comprehensive levels to some kind of standard and that would be delusional.

I think Science has room for those things that are not measured by physical instruments created by man and yet are experienced by
the human instrument, and that the human instrument is at varying degrees of refinement within the evolving population. Leaving your opinion to a relative point not yet discussed, but in the interest of dominating the discussion by negating any relevance to any truth on my part I will assume you idealize as real and true, when compared to any seemingly contrary information on my part.

You seem pretty touchy about applying the label of "science" to anything other than what fits on your terms, or at least that's what I get from this discussion. It would also seem the only way to make the point is to degrade my input which has at least, been entertaining.

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

Still waiting for you to say one intelligent thing on the subject of evolution (or anything else for that matter, but since this thread is about evolution, you could start there).


I'll take that to mean you are still waiting for me to meet your expectations. But you may have to evolve beyond that, before your eyes can see and your ears can hear anything that lives and breathes outside of that box of expectations and limits.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
Z
Superstar
Offline
Superstar
Z
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 498
People aren't simply convinced of evolution by the same way, like scientists aren't convinced concerning Aether hypothesis - despite of many logical reasons and evidences. The stance of both sides is equivalent and scientists have no right to criticize the others for their stance.

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: Zephir
People aren't simply convinced of evolution by the same way, like scientists aren't convinced concerning Aether hypothesis - despite of many logical reasons and evidences. The stance of both sides is equivalent and scientists have no right to criticize the others for their stance.


Everyone has the right to participate in reality to become self observant. Those that speak their mind from an emotionally attached position don't always recognize an objective point of view and aren't capable of taking in any perspectives that might clash with personal beliefs. This is the ego fearing the invalidation of ones ideals and the possibility that all of the idntification one has placed on ones beliefs and actions toward some meaning in life is less valuable than they thought.
Those that are attached to their ideals become less and less flexible, and unable to blend within the potential of the universe as their opinions narrow the walls of belief around them.
Everyone should have the ability to express themselves and everyone should, without being affected by differing opinions, develop the art of listening so that all can be seen and heard.
(better to be the eyes of three blind men than just one) Then one can take what they will without some sort of prejudice or fear that their world will be diluted by the fears and projections of the personal hell one creates within their own mind.

The universe is ultimately flexible enough to support all beliefs and opinions. Man however chooses to become thru his own free will, observant of the nature of the Universe, or thru belief and opinion label it, and narrow it, within his personal opinions, and to grasp on to the fear of losing ones identity within such a perception of space and time. To lose such an identity means death to the ego.
Man has from such a limited scope of vision as the ego, killed and fought to the death in order to maintain a position of identity.

It would appear that the ego which fears its own demise, will by its own principles of being, self destruct to preserve its identity. wink

As man evolves into greater awareness he finds less and less of a need to attach himself to ideals and beliefs which will change and evolve within the relative nature of self prescribed purpose and meaning that he projects upon reality.

In such a state of awareness man becomes less reactive and less likely turn to violence, and in such an awareness become more effective in creating solutions to problems created at the lesser state of awareness where the ego is self absorbed in personal gratification.

Perhaps evolved man will not need a science that can create a mechanism that can destroy the planet many times over, but rather in greater purpose, do away with the politics that attempt to preserve the ideals of the privileged at a cost that undermines the health and well being of the rest of humanity.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
If you do google on some evolution related topic, a crap-load of non-science links pop up. Same thing in YouTube. On YT, the posts by people with an actual science background are swamped by those from people who don't know anything and are just spouting stupidity.

A good thing about the net is that there's a lot of *really* good stuff, both facts and ideas; a bad thing is that a huge amount of it is just crap, making the good stuff difficult to find. Of course lots of people present themselves as experts. No law against lying, being an idiot, or just cut-n-pasting stupidity.

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
R
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
R
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
Bending the topic slightly, it's not only evolution...

"Universe's age erased from Texas school science standards"

http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/shortsharpscience/2009/03/universes-age-erased-from-texa.html


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
red,
you may find the following video interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93mWjngq4oA&feature=channel_page

He's from TX and has a strong interest in evolution education.

You're right - the same thing is common in other subjects - global warming, for example.

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
If you do google on some evolution related topic, a crap-load of non-science links pop up. Same thing in YouTube. On YT, the posts by people with an actual science background are swamped by those from people who don't know anything and are just spouting stupidity.

A good thing about the net is that there's a lot of *really* good stuff, both facts and ideas; a bad thing is that a huge amount of it is just crap, making the good stuff difficult to find. Of course lots of people present themselves as experts. No law against lying, being an idiot, or just cut-n-pasting stupidity.

Fortunately God loves stupid people too.

Since there are so many opinions on what something should look like, (and that applies to any subject) it should stand to reason as the intellect evolves..that the subjectivity of any belief is going to be stretched and compacted over and over again so that the mind can narrow in on something greater than just the personal opinion and belief. Obviously dogma is not just limited to religious beliefs, nor is religion a package of idealism tagged to the morality of God.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
R
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
R
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,840
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
red,
you may find the following video interesting

Very interesting, and very disturbing.

Bill Maher is a gem. I recommend his video "Religulous".


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,164
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,164
Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
Since there are so many opinions on what something should look like...the subjectivity of any belief is going to be stretched and compacted over and over again so that the mind can narrow in on something greater than just the personal opinion and belief.

The joy of science is simply that "the mind can narrow in on something greater than just the personal opinion and belief."


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
' I recommend his video "Religulous".'

I *BEG* you not to tempt me with ... um ... temptation. I'm waiting so I can watch it with both my daughters. I think there's a short window this summer before my eldest goes to China.

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
"The joy of science ..."

I *love* that phrase.

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: samwik

The joy of science is simply that "the mind can narrow in on something greater than just the personal opinion and belief."
That is Self Realization.


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
"Fortunately God loves stupid people too."

Good for them. I still don't ask them for help on my homework - and I'm a little worried living in a society where so many people are lining up to take notes from them.

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 1,249
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
"Fortunately God loves stupid people too."

Good for them. I still don't ask them for help on my homework - and I'm a little worried living in a society where so many people are lining up to take notes from them.
You can't prevent free will.

On another note: maybe this is the evolution of science
Robot Scientists


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940
T
Megastar
Offline
Megastar
T
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,940

Keep people satisfied with their own ignorance. That's the secret.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93mWjngq4oA

Page 17 of 20 1 2 15 16 17 18 19 20

Link Copied to Clipboard
Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact UsokÂþ»­¾W
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5