Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online
0 registered (), 202 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Is there anybody out there?
by paul
12/07/19 03:58 AM
Top Posters (30 Days)
paul 1
True 1
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >
Topic Options
#2912 - 09/03/05 02:05 PM Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
Planko Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 51
Loc: Mars
Could the current round of unmistakably immense rises in religiosity in the United States actually be evidence of contemporary science's failure to bring lay-people into the fold in a way which promotes levels of understanding adequately satisfying to them?

Have scientists become the poorest of articulators? And do lay-people, because of this, feel their understanding of science slip further and further out of their grasps so that they feel they are choosing a much more understandably basic/fundamental religion over a more complicated one?

Top
.
#2913 - 09/03/05 04:46 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
When I first read your comments my answer was YES!

But upon reflection I think the answer is no.

The reason I thought 'yes' was that clearly the problem is that the general public is totally ignorant of even the most basic science knowledge.

But then I thought about who is responsible for educating the public and I am afraid I must lay the blame clearly on two different groups of people.

1. Educators and the education system that uses science ignorant people to teach science and whose ability to teach science was outstripped around the turn of the previous century.

2. Parents ... and here is where the blame must clearly be placed.

Parents have consented to a society where steroid eating jocks are more valued than scientists, educators, and physicians.

Parents, as tax payors, have consented to let educators be among the lowest paid people in our society.

Parents have consented to allowing their children to received mediocre educations that barely qualify as baby-sitting services while at the same time abdicating their own responsibility to television and video games and the school system that they underfund and ignore.

So if you are the parent of a child ... blame yourself. If you are a child ... stop waiting for someone else to educate you ... take some personal responsibility.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#2914 - 09/03/05 07:27 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
Planko Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 51
Loc: Mars
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
That's a lazy answer. Those 2 groups are obviously part of the lay-people, by your own admission and description, that I was referring to in the first place. Welcome back from your roundtrip.

Top
#2915 - 09/03/05 09:28 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Planko:
[QUOTE] Welcome back
The thing is that science is failing all of us,
by its decline and perversion. Doctor, heal thyself

ES

Top
#2916 - 09/03/05 10:05 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
Planko Offline
Member

Registered: 10/21/04
Posts: 51
Loc: Mars
Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
Quote:
Originally posted by Planko:
[QUOTE] Welcome back
The thing is that science is failing all of us,
by its decline and perversion. Doctor, heal thyself

ES
All scientists or only the ones that don't believe in god, extrasense?

Top
#2917 - 09/03/05 10:20 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Planko:
Quote:
Originally posted by extrasense:
[qb] The thing is that science is failing all of us, by its decline and perversion. Doctor, heal thyself
All scientists or only the ones that don't believe in god, extrasense?
In most areas of science the personal faith is irrelevant.
Faith and science actually never oppose each other, they move on different planes.

ES

Top
#2918 - 09/04/05 07:11 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
Planko: Do you not read what you write before pushing the "Add Reply" button? Here is what you wrote:

"Could the current round of unmistakably immense rises in religiosity in the United States actually be evidence of contemporary science's failure...."

and

"Have scientists become the poorest of articulators?"

Where exactly in those sentences do you see a reference to educators and parents such that you can then write: "Those 2 groups are obviously part of the lay-people".

You began this thread with a clear cut attack on scientists as being responsible for the lack of knowledge of science.

At first I agreed with you.

Then I applied a skill we call "critical thinking" and discovered that it was just a shallow attack on the one group not responsible for the morass.

Extrasense: Science hasn't failed you ... you have failed yourself. Science is not responsible for your education. Science is not responsible for your inability to accept personal responsibility. And science is not responsible for the fact that most parents in our society rely on television to educate their children.

So you think science flies Northwest and religion flies United ... or is it Delta. You really should demand back from the public school systems the money they wasted trying to educate you. It was a complete failure.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#2919 - 09/04/05 10:34 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
So you think science flies Northwest and religion flies United
When a scientist opines on matters of religion, he speaks for himself, and outside the science.
When a priest opines on matters of science, he speaks for himself, not for the religion.

ES

Top
#2920 - 09/05/05 05:16 AM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
Anonymous
Unregistered


When a scientist opines on matters of religion, he speaks for himself, and outside the science.
REP: Which is not correct as he is not an expert in religion.
When a priest opines on matters of science, he speaks for himself, not for the religion.
REP: Rarely it happens that a person achieves a personal balance on Relgion and Science.Such a person will not recommend the mixing of two.
Religion and Science are not enemies to me. They are more like my parents whom I constantly refer to inorder survive and thrive.In some countries where the divorce rate is high I can understand that people must have started loosing faith in religion.But then a single parent can not give you what a family can.

Top
#2921 - 09/05/05 05:49 AM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
DA Morgan Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/17/04
Posts: 4136
Loc: Seattle, WA
extrasense: Sorry but ... B.S.

Every time a minister starts a reading with "In the beginning ...." is it science? Sure as H.... sounds like it to me. And there is zero doubt he, or she though it seems you don't believe in women in the pulpit, is speaking on behalf of his or her religion.

How convenient ... if every priest on the planet stood up and said the same thing they would all be expressing a personal opinion. How gutless. How bloody hypocritical.
_________________________
DA Morgan

Top
#2922 - 09/05/05 07:51 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
Originally posted by dkv:
But then a single parent can not give you what a family can.
YOu've got that straight. It cannot give you spouse abuse as a model for adult behavior. It cannot give you a black and blue parent who cringes from the other parent. It cannot give you manipulative, obsessive control freak role models, or the weak willed, submissive doormats on whom they stomp. It cannot give you a child playing one parent against another for power and pleasure. It cannot give you a drunk stumbling home in the wee hours to collapse on the front porch and sleep it off for all to see. It cannot give you one parent using the child to punish the other parent for their transgressions. Golly gee, what fun!

I'm sure two-parent homes have so much more to offer than single parents. If I ever can think of any advantages I'll let you know. Until then I will call you on your shallow and callous attack on "single parents", as I am one and have raised my son since age three alone and unaided save for a little bit of help from my family. He is now eighteen and a fine piece of work if I do say so myself. If I ever need your advice on parenting I'll be sure to let you know.

It takes more than two people to raise a child; it takes a community, but sometimes it is better to have one good parent than the alternative.

Top
#2923 - 09/05/05 09:57 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by DA Morgan:
Every time a minister starts a reading with "In the beginning ...." is it science?
They are called PhD, Philosophy Doctor.
But in fact scientists have no clue about philosophy.

The names and terms are confused.
The point were science failed humanity, is different. It is when science become pseudo, and suffocated real search for the truth.

ES

Top
#2924 - 09/05/05 10:38 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
Pasti Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 201
Let me guess, ES-less, you are referring to yourself, how your search for "truth" has been stifled by those beasts called Ph.D's. How your quest for proving that life exists mathematically on Mars, based on "image analysis", was met (and continues to be, would be an educated guess) with derision from everyone who actually knows something both about math and about image analysis. How your ramblings regarding quantum mechanics have been rejected for publication by your peers, just out of pure meaness and not because despite your "advanced studies" you cannot articulate ideeas in the form of a paper.
Correct me if I missed anything.

And you, the "true" scientist, what have you decided to do? Instead of continuing to improve yourself, so that you could make yourself heard in a scientific manner and in a scientific forum, you have decided to request public support on the internet by claiming to be a persecuted scientist by the authorities to be and the peers in your field.

Well, you are one very good example of why science has failed humanity. Scientific truth in your oppinion can be replaced by public vote, any lack (or maybe personal inability) of desire to actually confront ideeas openly with your peers is blamed on the others, you ramble about your persecution on obscure websites, and so on and so forth.

You are using the very same methods religion uses,or politics for that matter;public support instead of rationality. This is not to ay that I hold the scientific world blameless, by no means. But what you have not yet realized is that despite its several shortcomings, it is still the place where you can be heard if you can provide any cogent argument to support your ideas. But you have chsen to ignore this aspect, wilfully or not.

Top
#2925 - 09/06/05 12:33 AM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Pasti:
you are referring to yourself
I am making general points.
You, are talking that I am this and that...

e smile s

Top
#2926 - 09/06/05 10:28 AM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
Pasti Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 201
ES:"I am making general points.You, are talking that I am this and that..."

ES, don't play the innocent with me. I can post the links to your posts where you actually do exactly what I said you did. Have a backbone for once, will you?

Top
#2927 - 09/06/05 02:34 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
extrasense Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 427
Loc: USA
Quote:
Originally posted by Pasti:
I can post the links to your posts where you actually do exactly what I said you did.
You do not comprehend what I am saying.

This is an excuse, but a pretty damning one

e smile s

Top
#2928 - 09/06/05 02:47 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
There are a number of problems, none of which is insurmountable. Collectively, however, they constitute quite a juggernaut.

There are many handicaps a child can have. Among the worst is having idiots for parents. The first important responsibility a parent has with regard to his children's educations is to instill in them the fact that their educations are their own responsibilities. This is because learning only occurs in one place - and it's not a classroom, but between the ears of the student. Education is not the same thing as schooling.

We can sit around and complain or we can do something. I spend a very large amount of my "free time" in educating my own kids past the deficiencies of their public schooling. I also volunteer at a local high school, mentoring teachers in programming, tutoring students (physics, algebra, but mostly geometry), judging science contests, what have you. If they needed the toilets cleaned, I'd be happy to do that too. Whatever they need, I'm there.

But I don't think this is what most people want to do. I sense that most people want good education the way couch-potatoes want a million dollars - if it just happens to fall into their laps, they're elated, but they aren't willing to work for it. On the other end, we have people who are only interested in "doing something" if they can get credit for it somehow or if they can do something "really cool" like "helping" some kid win a science fair. To me, one of the coolest things is taking a kid who is making straight Ds and over the course of a semester getting their grade up to a B - or having a kid who has always made straight Fs break down crying during a session and say, "oh my god! oh my god! I understand it! I REALLY understand it!"

For the life of me I don't understand why in an area like where I live (northern va) the schools are pushing tutors away. It shouldn't be a struggle here to find people who know enough to be useful. Almost anyone can do something - it doesn't have to be perfect.

I recall a science day at my kids' elementary school in which some parents manned a number of the booths. Some of the parents really understood the thing they were demonstrating, while others were obviously lost. It's a little depressing that the parents don't understand some elementary aspect of science, but on the whole it's a great thing that they're actually putting out the effort. Often that's all it takes - for kids to SEE that their parents actually think a thing is important.

Feynman wrote in one of his books that his dad used to take him for walks and explain some scientific facts to him - how things work, so to speak. Later, he discovered that some of his dad's explanations were really off, but it was the fact that he actually nurtured that interest, got him thinking about what he was doing that got little Richard excited. Neither parents nor teachers have to be perfect - but they can do SOMETHING. The problem I see is that many parents don't even do the parent thing very well - like make sure their kids do their homework.

We as a society are loosing perspective - our economic well-being depends on our producing people who can understand science and practice it. Nowadays even some of science's staunchest promoters don't actually understand it very well. It's no wonder there's a creationist revival.

The US is not the only country to have these problems though. It's beginning to strike Britain. Chem Engineering is an important industry there and they now have a shortfall of people to fill the bill - they actually need to import chemical engineers to keep their factories running. Turns out there are more people interested in psychology and other proto-sciences than in the hard sciences. Chemical Engineering is considered "dirty." I'm not sure what good they think "Environmental Science" would be without chemical engineering - it's not about facts, but perceptions at that point.

Top
#2929 - 09/06/05 04:19 PM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
Pasti Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 201
ES:"You do not comprehend what I am saying."

Well, as I said before, you are not very articulate when it comes to writing (at least), and to make things worse, you are also very brief.

You are right, I may not "comprehend" you.So please enlighten me. Sentences are welcome, phrases will actually be appreciated.

ES:"This is an excuse, but a pretty damning one"

Well, I'm glad "this" is a damning excuse, but what is "this"? Once again, complex sentences and phrases are welcome.

My point was that you personally are the least qualified to judge how science has failed humanity, simply because of the way you practice what you call science. No real scientist that I know has ever tried to impose their oppinion by public polling and support, and for sure they have not given up publishing their ideas in peer reviewed journals(just because their paper was rejected by one or several journals), so that they can at least discuss it in scientific forums.

Top
#2930 - 09/08/05 02:34 AM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
Rogue Physicist Offline
Member

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 42
Loc: Gulag Health Spa
Religion rightly identifies the problem: corruption.

Science fails to deliver any alternative to religion, because scientists have all sold out to corruption.

Join the mob, and you have a job.
_________________________
Quantum Mechanics is a crashing Bohr.

Top
#2931 - 09/08/05 05:51 AM Re: Have Scientists Failed Humanity?
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think that's painting scientists in general with a very wide brush. I think a chemical company is entitled to a certain amount of loyalty from its employees, in measure with their loyalty to their employees. As long as this does not interfere with the truth being told accurately about the subject of the research.

Would you buy a Ford from a person who drove a BMW? How does that differ from the researcher who studies the effects of chemicals his employer is interested in producing? Sure, it's in the best interest of the company to have a drug approved, but it is NOT in the best interest of the company to get a drug okayed that ends up killing the people it is supposed to help. We've seen this happen recently; it did nothing to encourage the public's faith in that company.

Top
Page 1 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >



Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor
Facebook

We're on Facebook
Join Our Group

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.