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#27758 - 09/15/08 10:28 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: samwik]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
THE KING FAMILY TRAVELS IN THE USA
=================================
BTW, We have been to North and South Carolina, and Florida--frequently--and to Arizona.

FOR THE RECORD:
In the summer of 1970, by car and tent trailer, the King family-- including two teenage children--traveled, via the Canadian route. Starting from Toronto we traveled north and west over Lake Superior, it took us two overnights to get to out of Ontario and to the next province, Manitoba, the capitol of which is Winnipeg. Then to Saskatchewan. There, I visited Dundurn, where I served as a student minister in 1950, when I was 20. The next province is Alberta. The next is British Columbia--Vancouver and Victoria, on the Pacific coast.

It was a pleasant trip.

From BC, we went south to Seattle, Washington, USA. From there we took the American route back to Canada. We went through Montana, the Dakotas--The weather became very hot trip. Yes, we saw the famous Mountain carvings of the US Presidents. There was no relief from the heat until we reached, Iowa. From there we went to Illinois and Indiana and then back Windsor, Ontario, via Detroit.


Edited by Revlgking (09/15/08 11:58 PM)

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#27760 - 09/15/08 10:54 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: DA Morgan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: DA Morgan
Part of what you need to understand about America and Americans is that this country was founded by people who thought Victorian English morals were too loose.

This country prides itself on sex being dirty. It prides itself on believing things that are absolutely contrary to fact such as that it was founded as a Christian country. Lies to itself about such things as when the phrase "under god" was added to its Pledge of Allegiance (and more importantly why).

American's, for all of the advances of its scientific and engineering community would consider some TV commercials shown in a Catholic country such as Mexico immoral.

It is a place of stark contrasts. And except in radical or academic circles everyone pretends they don't notice that the Emperor is naked and stupid.


In America we only think sex is dirty if it's done right, but while we pride ourselves in having a government which seperates church and state, we are a very religious people unlike those European Monkeys.

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#27765 - 09/16/08 10:37 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Anonymous]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
INVOLUTION & EVOLUTION
======================
Involution. In botany this is term used to refer to a rolling inward from the edge--an inward rolling. I use this concept, in reverse, in my attempt to understand astronomy and the evolution, outward expansion, of the universe.

Evolution. To evolve is to roll outwards--an advance from the simple to the complex. Some scientists believe that all forms in nature come from a simple, perhaps single-celled, organism,

Speaking of the universe, science tells us that what we observe today as a multitude of planets and galaxies was once wrapped, involved, in one primordial ball only about thirty times the size of our sun. What there was before this, at this point, science has absolutely nothing factual to say. Speculating on this was, and still is, in the realm of the philosopher/theologian in us.

Think now of planet Earth. In the beginning, like all other creatures on Earth we probably lived as beings wrapped in our animal instincts (our psyches). It took a long time for us to evolve into conscious beings (pneuma-like beings). Google on pneumatology.

No doubt things began to change, rapidly, when in the first pneuma-like being, the first philosopher/theologian--one with a developed gift for language--came up with the idea: "I wonder if we can improve on life as we are now living it?" This led to the development of a written language, including numbers.

Probably when the first PT's discovered numbers (mathematics means the discipline), and decided to measure things, the first scientists were born. They soon, also, learned the value of doing experiments.

THE FIRST ARTISAN/ARTISTS
Those who began to apply what they learned became the first artisans and artists--the creators of things that are useful and beautiful. The Greek for carpenter is TEKNON.

IMHO, when we figure out who, or what, did the wrapping we will discover GOD--(the Spirit, the Pneuma, in and around us?)--that which was never lost; just hidden by our arrogant ego--our pride. When we do, we will create more of the beauty we have and the ugly will become beautiful.

What are we waiting for?


Edited by Revlgking (09/16/08 04:25 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28614 - 12/02/08 08:20 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: samwik]
Iztaci Offline
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Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Rocky Mt. West
samwik's point is well taken. Try to count the number of times you've heard something like this:

"All that crap about smoking being bad for you is pure hokum. My grandfather started smoking at age eleven and died at ninety-seven, still smoking."

I hear it almost constantly in reference to all kinds of things and catch myself using the same mindset from time to time. I try to catch myself doing it and throw it out and I think I'm making some headway but it seems to be hard-wired in the human psyche. At first, it seemed such a small thing then I came to realize how pervasive it really is. It's huge.
_________________________
When you talk to me like I'm five, I want to write on you with a crayon. -- Joanna Hoffman

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#28620 - 12/02/08 06:27 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Iztaci]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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"All that crap about smoking being bad for you is pure hokum. My grandfather started smoking at age eleven and died at ninety-seven, still smoking." Perhaps so! But we need to keep in mind that total health involves more than somatic (physical) components. It is accepted that there is a psychosomatic (mind/body)component. Furthermore, there is what I call a pneumasomatic (spirit/body) one--incorporating peace of mind (spirit) and the will to live.

WE ARE PNEUMATOLOGICAL--SPIRIT-BASED--BEINGS
============================================
Back to the question of this thread: Perhaps the main reason many Americans do not accept evolution as a fact is a pneumatological, or spiritual, one. We need to keep in mind (spirit) that most of the first pioneers were made up of Bible believers. Such choose--a function of the spirit--to believe what they were taught to believe until it became what they desire and want to believe.

BTW, until we understand this, we will never understand the minds (spirits) of the terrorists, or, generally speaking, even what makes some people criminals. The fear of the law--getting caught, or killed, is no deterrent. When are WE going to wake up?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28625 - 12/02/08 11:32 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Revlgking]
Iztaci Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Rocky Mt. West
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
"All that crap about smoking being bad for you is pure hokum. My grandfather started smoking at age eleven and died at ninety-seven, still smoking." Perhaps so! But we need to keep in mind that total health involves more than somatic (physical) components. It is accepted that there is a psychosomatic (mind/body)component. Furthermore, there is what I call a pneumasomatic (spirit/body) one--incorporating peace of mind (spirit) and the will to live.

WE ARE PNEUMATOLOGICAL--SPIRIT-BASED--BEINGS
============================================
Back to the question of this thread: Perhaps the main reason many Americans do not accept evolution as a fact is a pneumatological, or spiritual, one. We need to keep in mind (spirit) that most of the first pioneers were made up of Bible believers. Such choose--a function of the spirit--to believe what they were taught to believe until it became what they desire and want to believe.

BTW, until we understand this, we will never understand the minds (spirits) of the terrorists, or, generally speaking, even what makes some people criminals. The fear of the law--getting caught, or killed, is no deterrent. When are WE going to wake up?


Sorry, I wasn't arguing that. I was simply agreeing that there is a problem with too small a data set. A huge problem. I read your posts for the refreshing honesty I find in them, and because I agree with a lot of your logic. I have no hound in the mind/body/spirit hunt. Just a couple in the honesty/logic hunt.

Regards
_________________________
When you talk to me like I'm five, I want to write on you with a crayon. -- Joanna Hoffman

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#28631 - 12/03/08 05:06 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Iztaci]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Personally I think that Americans believe in Creationism, or some similar belief, because many are still fervent churchgoers who believe the stories of the Bible. The Garden of Eden myth is quite enchanting, all the created things getting on like a house on fire, then it's all ruined by the female, so let's invent original sin and make her pay for it forever! OK I've muddled up at least 2 denominations there, but many Americans do believe in Bible myths. Many more than in other countries. These beliefs are taught in childhood, as they were in Darwin's time, with largely the same result. People who feel the foundations of their faith may be shattered are not going to believe another theory, which has not obtained the appproval of their church. Epecially if they are told that they risk of losing the possibility of Eternal Life for it.

I would have thought it was possible to accept the Theory of Evolution on a scientific basis without it upsetting the religious apple cart, but it appears I am wrong.

Really it doesn't matter in the long run,. Evolution will continue, some people will not believe that it is doing so. Surely there aren't that many. Do they hold up research, stop the 'marrch of progress' or are they just nuisances, or more likely irrelevances, and annoying?

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#28633 - 12/03/08 06:38 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
Really it doesn't matter in the long run,. Evolution will continue, some people will not believe that it is doing so. Surely there aren't that many.
Ellis,it would be really interesting to know what percentage of the world's 6 billion people have enough education NOT to be trapped in some kind of false mythology. Is anyone aware of any literature on this topic?
=============================================
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_percentage_of_the_world_population_is_illiterate
The answer is about one billion.
I am surprised; I thought it would be more than this. Maybe there is hope for us yet.
==================================================
This looks interesting:
http://atheism.about.com/od/argumentsagainstgod/a/TooMany.htm
It refers to this:
http://wondercafe.ca/ It is about a faith, with which I am familiar, which encourages the use of reason and bold questions. Thinkers, including agnostic and atheists, welcome.

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#28640 - 12/04/08 12:49 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
I don't think it is just a question of literacy (though I will always agree with the need for literacy for all). I feel it is also a question of early influences, conditioning if you like. As the Jesuits are supposed to have said-- Give us a child before the age of seven and we will have him (her) for life.

It takes a lot of conviction, as well as not a little courage to reject one's upbringing as in doing so we reject family, community and sometimes country. It is easier to cling to safe and comfortable beliefs, especially if the community is close, selective and promises exclusivity of rewards, perhaps even at the end of suffering for those beliefs. This can apply to something trivial, such as believing the planet was made in 6 days, as well as to the need for martyrdom for your faith. It's the same thinking and reasoning at work.

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#28654 - 12/04/08 10:19 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: DA Morgan]
Anonymous
Unregistered


9fusppPerhaps it is possible that more people are not accepting evolution because the evidence for it simply is not there!I used to believe in evolution but as I started to really look at the science (or lack thereof)behind it, it really became difficult t continue believing.Some quotes by evolution believing people
1.In fact, the fossil record does not convincingly document a single transition from one species to another." (Stanley, S.M., The New Evolutionary Timetable: Fossils, Genes, and the Origin of Species, 1981, p. 95)
2.But fossil species remain unchanged throughout most of their history and the record fails to contain a single example of a significant transition." (Woodroff, D.S., Science, vol. 208, 1980, p. 716)
3. "If living matter is not, then, caused by the interplay of atoms, natural forces and radiation, how has it come into being? I think, however, that we must go further than this and admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation. I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it." (H.J. Lipson, F.R.S. Professor of Physics, University of Manchester, UK, "A physicist looks at evolution" Physics Bulletin, 1980, vol 31, p. 138)

There are lots more where these came from!



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#28655 - 12/04/08 10:40 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Anonymous]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
...
3. "If living matter is not, then, caused by the interplay of atoms, natural forces and radiation, how has it come into being?

I think, however, that we must go further than this and admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation.

I know that this is anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it." (H.J. Lipson, F.R.S. Professor of Physics, University of Manchester, UK, "A physicist looks at evolution" Physics Bulletin, 1980, vol 31, p. 138)...
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that what we call "creation" is an illusion of the human mind, and we, individually, are creating it with our minds, right now.

BTW, I say the above as a matter of fact, without being judgmental. All illusions can be helpful.

I have my version of creation, and you have yours.

Think about it! What are you and I creating, right now?

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28682 - 12/06/08 06:11 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that what we call "creation" is an illusion of the human mind, and we, individually, are creating it with our minds, right now.

BTW, I say the above as a matter of fact, without being judgmental. All illusions can be helpful.

I have my version of creation, and you have yours.

Think about it! What are you and I creating, right now?

More convincing thoughts of helpful illusions? confused
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28692 - 12/07/08 05:18 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
EMANATION
The concept of emanation, the Golden Middle Way between creationism and evolutionism, makes a lot of sense to me.

KEY PRINCIPLES
===============
That complex things are created in nature is not in question by Creationists (Abrahamic religions, etc.), Emanationists, or nihilists and atheists. Rather, the two principles that are in question are the locus for creation and whether a sentient, self-aware Absolute (‘God’) is a necessity for creation. Emanationists such as Pythagoras, Plotinus, Gotama, and others argued that complex patterns in nature were a natural consequence of procession from the One (Hen, Absolute)....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanationism
===========================================================
Philosophy Dictionary: emanationism
The attempt made by Plotinus, and foreshadowed in Plato, to understand creation as an overflow, radiating out from the supreme principle or God, somewhat as light emanates from a light source without in any way diminishing it. In Neoplatonism the doctrine is associated with pantheism.
=======================================
CATHOLIC DICTIONARY
The doctrine that emanation (Latin emanare, "to flow from") is the mode by which all things are derived from the First Reality, or Principle.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05397b.htm

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#28694 - 12/07/08 07:37 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
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Certainly Emanation is the manifest of what is un-manifest.
Knowing the un-manifest, one begins to recognize the manifest not as illusion but as emanation or Truth manifest from the Truth un-manifest; not restricted by the illusions of time and space but restricted to the illusions of projection generated from limitations in the comprehension of reality.
As comprehension evolves so do the illusions of projection in the observances of reality, and science then subscribes to definitions of reality perceived as points of perception in time and space while engaging itself in the ongoing discovery of perception and analysis. As changes in perception evolve or expand, so does science and the reality of humanity and the universe evolve.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28697 - 12/08/08 12:00 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
TTwrote
"As comprehension evolves so do the illusions of projection in the observances of reality, and science then subscribes to definitions of reality perceived as points of perception in time and space while engaging itself in the ongoing discovery of perception and analysis. As changes in perception evolve or expand, so does science and the reality of humanity and the universe evolve."

This is a great point. Science responds to the evolving realities/discoveries as they happen, and answers the questions raised according to the state of the knowledge at the time. I doubt there will ever be a time when all the answers are known though!

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#28699 - 12/08/08 12:32 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
Science responds to the evolving realities/discoveries as they happen, and answers the questions raised according to the state of the knowledge at the time.
Very well put, Ellis. In other words, scientists are those who perceive what interests them, theorize about it, then they explore, ask questions, experiment, and evaluate what is and offer conclusions, eh? Kinda elementary, eh?

May I add: Being spiritual--individual or pneumatological--beings, scientists are bound to differ from one another, and in their perceptions as to what is.

Quote:
I doubt there will ever be a time when all the answers are known though!
I agree! And this is what makes me more interested in the journey, which I enjoy...I'm not even convinced there is a destination--a heaven, which is the central theme of so many prayers and hymns of the organized ego-based religions.


Edited by Revlgking (12/08/08 04:13 AM)
Edit Reason: Always needs it.

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#28702 - 12/08/08 01:00 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
I doubt there will ever be a time when all the answers are known though!

I agree! And this is what makes me more interested in the journey, which I enjoy...I not even convinced there is a destination.

It is when one decides they don't enjoy what is in the journey, the scenery and circumstance when one decides there is a direction the journey must take which eludes to a destination.
When one removes themselves from expectation and judgment of who and what the journey contains and where it is headed, one becomes more cognizant of the manifest as the reflection of the absolute. Then as one becomes more familiar with the absolute the journey is seen as the absolute. Without beginnings and endings. All answers from the limitless are known when the question is posed within the absolute.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28723 - 12/09/08 10:59 AM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: samwik]
slimemold Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 4
Loc: Devon, England
I'm from England. Many Americans may not accept the clear evidence of evolution, but your universities have good Anthropology departments. BTW I read Anthropology here in England (UCL) way back in the 1960s.

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#28725 - 12/09/08 05:26 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: slimemold]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
SM, as your comment implies, generalizations--for example, like: "America doesn't believe in evolution."--do not usually contain much truth of any real value. I took post grad studies at Boston University (1954-1955), a Methodist university and a very progressive centre of knowledge, and wisdom.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28788 - 12/11/08 01:29 PM Re: Why doesn't America believe in evolution? [Re: Anonymous]
slimemold Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 12/09/08
Posts: 4
Loc: Devon, England
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes. Name me a species that only partially evolved. Like the great ape of long past gathered all the apes of the planet and henceforth asked each and everyone; who wants to be a human, raise your hand.....

We didn't evolve from apes, we shared a common ancestor with current apes. These latter are of course still evolving, as are we. The process isn't observable to us, as our time scale is too limited.

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