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#28192 - 10/29/08 12:39 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Revlgking Offline
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Excellent advice, Amaranth. Dialogue is such a pleasant activity when done with humility and respect for others and for their sincerely held opinions.

My sincerely held beliefs and opinions are mine. Because I respect the opinions of others, at no time do I intend to impose them on others. I seek to live by the principle of the Golden Rule in search of the Golden mean. If at anytime you feel that I fail to follow this principle, please feel free to let me know.

BTW, I find the sharing of opinions often leads to us discovering the Golden Mean--the middle way to truth.

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#28196 - 10/29/08 05:00 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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IF one is familiar with the Golden mean as stated by Buddha or the what is called the middle way it takes a different meaning than to simply be neutral within extremes of opposites. It actually means to rise above the duality of opposites and to be able to make judgment from Truth absolute, from Unity of mind body and Soul with Omniscient wisdom.
In Unity with God no opinion is owned as Mine, for that is a statement of ego. In the experience of mine, yours, theirs, the ego separates itself into pieces of a pie to make a whole. In Consciousness as a Whole, no thought is perceived as part of consciousness, any more than a glimpse of light is perceived as a part of light.
The ego takes pieces of nature and qualifies it before trying to place it within the personal box, all the while ignoring the ego it sees in others and their boxes as being the same glimpse of light only seen through the filters of each individual personality.
That being the case, each ego sees exactly the same thing and by determination of internal programming, (Subconscious idealization, fear and projection) separates the light of creation into personal beliefs.
The ego respects the other belief, only when ones egoic beliefs are not threatened so that it may remain intact, or free from any disturbance. Unfortunately with so many opinions created from belief one does not have to go far to feel personal beliefs are threatened. One only need hear something that is contradictory to ones own belief, to be threatened.
That usually results in a biography of personal achievements and a history of like minded accomplishments so that the measure of self worth is justified and upheld in and amongst the diverse nature of ego and its differing opinions of personality.
Do unto others as you would do unto yourself then becomes a statement to allow others to remain without fear and subject to opposing personal systems of measure, as you would wish to remain without fear in the duality of opposites and conflicting opinion.

To become neutral does not mean to become inactive either. To sit in and amongst activity without action is neither productive nor is it expanding into the living of life.

In order to rise above the duality of perverse systems of self measure and ego identity, to treat all as equal, one has to see themselves in everyone else and experience everyone else within ones self. But that is not ego one sees in themselves and others but Consciousness itself. This is the only way to see the light. Rather than catch glimpses of the light and second guess reality by assuming an opinion in the diversity of opinions could hold equal value with others that contradict and oppose, one has to have clear vision to rise above the illusions of diverse opinions that create conflict within ones self.
Obviously hot is not the same as cold and they do not have the same place in experience.
Opinion from the experience of God in unity with all things, where one recognizes all thought feeling and action in themselves and others as being from the same consciousness, is not the same opinion that comes from ego where God is a belief and or an opinion.

Ones opinions are not owned in Unity.
Only the ego owns an opinion.

The Golden rule from the enlightened awareness of Unity is far superior to the golden rule projected from the limitation and duality of ego.

From the ego the golden rule is used to protect personal belief.
From enlightenment the Golden rule is an absolute, it recognizes the equality of God in all things, and it matters not what is said or experienced for it is all the ONE Consciousness.

That is the only place immortality lives.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28198 - 10/29/08 06:18 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Brilliance Offline
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Registered: 10/19/08
Posts: 10
I am sorry but i dont believe giving your words impotance was not civil!!! I havent used any insulting or harsh words to anyone!!

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#28199 - 10/29/08 07:02 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Brilliance]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Brilliance
I am sorry but i dont believe giving your words impotance was not civil!!! I havent used any insulting or harsh words to anyone!!

Gotta agree with you there, nothing to be sorry about...

Hard to imagine how ones inner peace could be so easily disturbed, other than from a misperception of reality.
We so often jump to the conclusion that our own perceptions of reality are caused by others, and in doing so try to force the opposing thought/other into compliance with personal beliefs to remove the disturbance within ourselves.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28204 - 10/30/08 12:42 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Brilliance]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
May I gate crash the NQS party to insert a quick reference to mundane science?
____

Brilliance

Re part of the earlier discussion, there's some interesting info about synthetic biology here:

http://royalsociety.org/landing.asp?id=1230

"Synthetic biology is an emerging area of research that can broadly be described as the design and construction of novel artificial biological pathways, organisms or devices, or the redesign of existing natural biological systems..."
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#28205 - 10/30/08 03:18 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Ellis, speaking of atheism, I thought you might be interested in the following information from the site Aish.com:
"Since its launch in February 2000, Aish.com has become the world’s largest Jewish content website, logging over 3 million monthly user sessions with 200,000 unique email subscribers."

http://www.aish.com/purimthemes/purimthemesdefault/Remembering_Amalek.asp

Here is an interesting quote about Amalek--mentioned several times in the Bible and one of the descendants of Ishmael--an ancestor of the Muslims. The Hebrew Bible commentaries tells us that the Amalekites were marauders. The comment below adds that they were atheists.

BTW, keep in mind that I do not necessarily agree with the negative generalization that atheism is the root cause of much evil. IMO, All religions, including Jews, Christians and Muslims, have all done their share of evil:
Quote:
Before the advent of Amalek, there were two schools of thought. The nations believed that various powers ran the world -- idols, demons, angels, etc.

As an alternative, Abraham established the concept of monotheism in the world -- a conviction that God controlled all events. Amalek introduced a third idea -- belief in nothing! This is atheism, which posits that nothing special controls the world.

From Amalek's perspective, there is really nothing to live for. In an atheistic civilization, morals are intrinsically fluid, and subject to change. The natural goals of such a society can only be greed, might and power. It is survival of the fittest. He who owns the most, and controls the most, wins!

Atheism is worse than idol worship. Idol worship is polytheism, the belief in many powers. It is possible to progress from many gods to belief in one God. The prime example is Abraham. Originally an idol worshipper, he eventually came to the knowledge that there can be only one true Power. The road from many powers to one power is relatively short, since the individual accepts in principle that there is something directing the universe.

However, Amalek denies that any power runs the world. It's all blind, accidental, happenstance. As Rabbi Tzaddok says, they believe in nothing. From this position, it is most difficult to accept the Almighty God.

Amalek had a vested interest in attacking the Jewish people, whose very existence proved the existence of God to the world. They proved that spiritual powers exist, and that there are absolute values. Amalek needed to attack the Jews, as they had struck a major blow for the twin ideas of God's existence and absolute morality.
BTW, Ellis, how would you respond to Rabbi Tzaddok's comment that atheists believe that the world is the result of, "blind, accidental, happenstance ... they believe in nothing" ?


Edited by Revlgking (10/30/08 07:56 PM)

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#28209 - 10/31/08 06:10 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Hello, I'm back, been for a bit of a break (but had to fly to get there- worth it though!)

Some interesting stuff here.

Rev- you know my answer to people like the Rabbi. Instead I'll ask a question back. What is so good about believing in stuff? Should it not be optional? Belief in the supernatural is not necessary for a full- meaningful, and yes- happy- life! Life is what you make it, and mostly I find it's really nice! So now get cross and tell me that I have told you that before!

Brilliance-- dictionary def. re immortal-
1. living for ever
2. endurung for ever; imperishable
3. having enduring fame.

Living a very long time is variable. If you are a Mayfly, living for a week is a very long time indeed, but if you are a planet thousands of eons is probably not a very long time. But they are both finite- immortality is infinite and ever lasting, as the definition says 'for ever'.

I know I'm going on a bit and being pedantic but defining one's terms is very important in debating. Immortality is not the same as long life. (And I'll never say anything else about it I promise.)

"Only the ego owns an opinion".... TT that's a thought to ponder! Very chastening!

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#28210 - 10/31/08 12:39 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
What is so good about believing in stuff?
Having a belief is like having an good idea or a theory; it just gets things started. Having a belief is important in that sense of the word.

If the first thinkers about the shape of the earth, who came up with the idea that it could be a globe, said and did nothing about it no exploration would have happened at least at that time. Values come from a combination of belief and action.

This is why Jesus said, "By their works you shall know them...Don't call me Lord, Lord if you are not willing to do..." IMO, life is about having character and building on it.

Quote:
Should it not be optional?
Of course. Faith, hope and love cannot be commanded; they must come from within the human heart/spirit (pneuma).

Now let me ask you: If you were an atheist with no belief in life after death and with the character of a marauding predator, would you not be tempted to take it all now regardless who gets hurt in the process?

On the other hand, if you had even the slightest belief in karma--that you will eventually reap what you sowed and will have to make amends, would that not give you pause?


Edited by Revlgking (10/31/08 12:42 PM)

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#28211 - 10/31/08 10:28 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
So now get cross and tell me that I have told you that before!
An interesting comment, Ellis, to which I respond: I have no impulse to get cross at you, or anyone, simply because you told me that you think of yourself as a happy atheist?

On the contrary, I rejoice in the fact. IMO, what we need is all the happy atheists, and theists, we can find. To me, what you say means that you are more concerned with being a person of good (GOD-like) character than you are with being a person with the right set of dogmatic beliefs.

IMO, good character is the goal well worth pursuing, and one that I pursue.


Edited by Revlgking (10/31/08 10:32 PM)

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#28212 - 11/01/08 05:24 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Revlgking]
Brilliance Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/08
Posts: 10
Been a little busy wit my exams!!

Thanx for the link rewenur.

Alright ellis... i suppose ur right. i guess i shud have used the term very very very very very very long time... But watever u guyz all get they point i am trying to express. (not bieng sarcastic)

I bileave life of a person cann never be peacefull... sure for a while or so but there r so many aspects of life tat we can only begin to understand. Bieng good is something i strongly bileave in. BUt what derives a person to do gud deeds... going against the natural impulse to do worng... is it nature or nurture/enviroment.

i think its nature!


ppl tend to mix many aspects togeather. sure it is gud to do tat sumtime, but when they mix other aspects into one ... doesent tis crude their jugement for a pefect result??? for example racism and discrimination... instead of juging peopl by the colour of their skins or their traditions... why couldnt they just treat everuyone like equal so a better world emerges... didnt everyone know how to make the world better even during the heavy period of racism and discrimination... then why didnt they stop??? Their are so many problems in the world, even now... cant we solve them if we dont implement any other aspects???


Edited by Brilliance (11/01/08 05:26 PM)

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#28214 - 11/02/08 01:12 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Brilliance]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Brilliance


I bileave life of a person cann never be peacefull... sure for a while or so but there r so many aspects of life tat we can only begin to understand. Bieng good is something i strongly bileave in. BUt what derives a person to do gud deeds... going against the natural impulse to do worng... is it nature or nurture/enviroment.
Something to think about..
If you don't understand life, and from what you know decide to make judgments based on incomplete knowledge, it would be wiser to gain knowledge that will point you in a direction toward your goal rather than just making blind statements.
Then at least, (instead of assuming something), you are open to learn rather than impose as reality those very things you have a difficult time with.

Doing wrong is not a natural impulse unless you do not believe right has value. If you felt right had no value then wrong also contains little value and morals would be left to the root ability to survive in a system of valueless architecture.

People always have a choice but not always do people realize choice, nor do people realize the truth of reality.

If all people believed as you do that the nature of people is to do wrong or that no one could live their entire life in peace, the world would have died long ago.
You have a serious problem to overcome and that is more the negativity in your belief system than the reality that you believe is real.

Just 'cause the people thought the world was flat 600 years ago didn't make it so. Just because you can't find a systematic approach to life that brings you peace and awakens the natural tendency to give to the world as you would give to yourself, don't mean it doesn't exist.
You'd have to take the time to find it rather than to just assume it doesn't.
It might help to take the time to spell check your posts so as not to give the impression that your illiterate as well as negative.

Appearances can often be illusion...
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28215 - 11/02/08 03:20 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Brilliance- TT has a point when he suggests that

'If all people believed as you do that the nature of people is to do wrong or that no one could live their entire life in peace, the world would have died long ago.'

It is sad that you assume that negativity is natural and only the threat of (what?)-- punishment? will stop bad behaviour. I think that, given the choice, there are very few people who would prefer to make others unhappy and to disadvantage them. As we are part of society we should try to ensure that all the people in that society have the opportunity to live happy meaningful lives, (even those we do not like much). We are all on this planet together and we should all try to get along with one another, and we don't do that if we assume that everyone is out to 'get' us.

Brilliance- I am very serious when I say that you need to explore what is going on all around you. Try to help other people. Talk to them, and listen to their answers. Then you may understand why some people like to keep their own customs and so on. It does not mean they are wrong, just different. You say you are doing exams. Set some positive goals and take your good results and use them to help you reach those goals. And try to be positive, and remember that there are two sides to every story.

And-- I agree-- please put your work through spell check. In spite of what I have just said, first impressions are important.


Edited by Ellis (11/02/08 03:41 AM)
Edit Reason: grammar

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#28216 - 11/02/08 06:06 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
IMO: We are who we are as the result of nature/nurture/pneumature.
In other words: as the result of nature/nurture/plus our spirit-based character.

This explains why people with good character can, despite serious setbacks, turn on the power of enthusiasm (which literally means god-filled) and optimism and thus turn their scars into stars; give them a lemon and they will make lemonade. Helen Keller, though blind and deaf, with the help a spiritually devoted companion/teacher, went on to become a great human being and writer. Beethoven wrote some of his greatest music after he became deaf. Name some names of people, that come to your mind, who went on to become great human and humane beings after they overcame great handicaps.

Christians tell us that Jesus turned the cross into a symbol salvation and resurrection. Come to think of it, not a bad goal regardless of what one believes about religion.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28459 - 11/24/08 04:56 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Brilliance]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think that this is a very good thing to talk about! But if humans were immortal than what would be the point? I mean i see how it would be cool to be like that but i don't think it is possible.

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#28460 - 11/24/08 05:46 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Anonymous]
Thislin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Vietnam
A comment, if I may, about the Buddha's "Middle Way." An awful lot is made of that, some of it rather extreme. We need to keep it simple: the context of the Buddha's teaching here is in the pursuit of Enlightenment. He found that neither indulgence nor asceticism worked--in fact, they both were hindrances. Basically that is all there is to the teaching.

That the principle can be applied in other contexts is obvious, but invoking the Buddha's authority outside the limited choice of indulgence vs. asceticism is sometimes to go too far. Sometimes, depending on how the choices are constructed, a "middle way" is wrong.

A remark about the topic of this theme--the idea of human immortality. It seems absurd to me. It is obvious that we age and die, and science has done nothing but reinforce this point. Nothing persists forever. Even the stars and galaxies age and die and the energy of the universe gradually dissipates.

Most Buddhists think that the human "life spirit" generally persists after death, being driven by its desire for personal existence, to be reborn shortly in a new human life. Still, this is not immortality. The reborn person is not the person who died. It has new genes and new life experiences, and very little if any memory of the past existence, even in the subconscious.

Further, we constantly die and are reborn from moment to moment. What we are now is not what we were even a minute ago, and is a very different person from what we were, say, a decade ago. Memories give us the illusion of continuity of person, but they are fragile and easily lost or distorted, by disease, accident, limited capacity, and even just the passage of time.

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#28461 - 11/24/08 05:48 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Anonymous]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
The word immortal is often projected into an idea of being superhuman, like Connor McCleod in the "Highlander" Movies and television Series, but the true immortal spirit resides within the clothing of personality and flesh. It is possible for the spirit to maintain the bodily appearance of one image but why would you want to?
Originally Posted By: Thislin
A comment, if I may, about the Buddha's "Middle Way." An awful lot is made of that, some of it rather extreme. We need to keep it simple: the context of the Buddha's teaching here is in the pursuit of Enlightenment. He found that neither indulgence nor asceticism worked--in fact, they both were hindrances. Basically that is all there is to the teaching.

That the principle can be applied in other contexts is obvious, but invoking the Buddha's authority outside the limited choice of indulgence vs. asceticism is sometimes to go too far. Sometimes, depending on how the choices are constructed, a "middle way" is wrong.

The middle way is the way of the Enlightened rather than the way to enlightenment.
The middle way is clear judgment that lay in between extremes or is centered unmoving in duality.
Any attempt to create a medium or middle way within the boundaries of opinion, belief or ego creates tension and stress in the nervous system.
Useful boundaries given to a disciple by someone who has achieved enlightenment are geared to the root stresses of an individual. The Ego which is blinded by its own ideals cannot see its boundaries for the boundaries are the very foundation of its being. It (EGO) would not exist without its boundaries and would not know how to function without those boundaries.
Therefore the ego cannot conceptualize a middle way that is not born of personal ideals, beliefs and limitation.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28467 - 11/24/08 08:38 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Thislin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Vietnam
I would suggest that you try to include some statement of reason or evidence when you make assertions that try to contradict what someone else has said. Otherwise your views are easily dismissed.

I think you are mistaken when you say that the "middle way" teaching only describes the way of the enlightened. Of course one does not imagine someone enlightened who does not follow a wise path, but according to the story the Buddha found the middle way some months or years before he became enlightened. The teaching is advice to us all. The Buddha presented it that way and good sense would tell us that to become enlightened one needs to practice it.

I have to wonder what you mean by "unmoving in its duality." Is that an assertion that sometimes what is perceived as the middle way is nevertheless wrong? I am sure you are ingenious enough to realize that there are things that should be avoided entirely. Should we adopt a middle way in our adherence to the Eightfold Noble Path?

The concept of the ego is a useful one, and conveys a semi-scientific description of self, but it has to be remembered that self is an illusion. We are not and do not have a "soul," or "ego," or "mind," (although for the sake of simple expression we often speak as though we do). All we have is the candle flame of the process called "mind," or "spirit, and this is process, not thing. It exists as activity of nerve cells, not as a thing, spiritual or otherwise.

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#28469 - 11/24/08 09:33 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Thislin]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Thislin
It [mind] exists as activity of nerve cells, not as a thing, spiritual or otherwise.

But...

Originally Posted By: Thislin
I would suggest that you try to include some statement of reason or evidence when you make assertions that try to contradict what someone else has said. Otherwise your views are easily dismissed.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#28472 - 11/25/08 04:27 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Thislin]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Thislin
I would suggest that you try to include some statement of reason or evidence when you make assertions that try to contradict what someone else has said. Otherwise your views are easily dismissed.

So you think I should prepare myself and my statements so that ego will not dismiss them?
If I make my statements based on enlightened experience why must I reason them? If one who is not enlightened cannot find a reason for something that is not their experience to believe in I should sell Truth?
Did the Buddha reason the Truth or did he speak from his own experience?

Oh and I never contradict anyone. I only complement the ongoing flame, as you call it.
Originally Posted By: Thislin

I think you are mistaken when you say that the "middle way" teaching only describes the way of the enlightened. Of course one does not imagine someone enlightened who does not follow a wise path, but according to the story the Buddha found the middle way some months or years before he became enlightened.

That is a supposition. One assumes enlightenment is an end all and that realization leads to enlightenment rather than realization being enlightenment.

Originally Posted By: Thislin
The teaching is advice to us all. The Buddha presented it that way and good sense would tell us that to become enlightened one needs to practice it.

Good sense based on belief and reason? If you had the good sense to realize what it meant to be enlightened what would keep you from being enlightened? If you know exactly what the Buddha meant while not being enlightened, wouldn't that destroy the whole idea of gaining enlightenment?
The Teaching is a direction or a pointing toward the goal and a description of what consequences occur due to choices that are made from ego and immersion into duality, where the senses are continually directed outward.
Originally Posted By: Thislin

I have to wonder what you mean by "unmoving in its duality."

Of course you must. If you knew what the middle way was you wouldn't be wondering.
Originally Posted By: Thislin
Is that an assertion that sometimes what is perceived as the middle way is nevertheless wrong?

Not knowing and pretending to know doesn't create knowing..
Originally Posted By: Thislin
I am sure you are ingenious enough to realize that there are things that should be avoided entirely.

What you focus on grows. Avoiding something puts a lot of attention on what you don't want.
Originally Posted By: Thislin
Should we adopt a middle way in our adherence to the Eightfold Noble Path?

Adhering to the eightfold path is something only an enlightened person can do. Others only aspire to realize it.
Originally Posted By: Thislin

The concept of the ego is a useful one, and conveys a semi-scientific description of self, but it has to be remembered that self is an illusion.

Like I said what you focus on grows. If you postulate semi science you get semi truth and semi understanding.

Originally Posted By: Thislin
We are not and do not have a "soul," or "ego," or "mind," (although for the sake of simple expression we often speak as though we do).

If you put it that way, we do not have the capability to realize enlightenment or a middle way because that is an illusion.

Originally Posted By: Thislin
All we have is the candle flame of the process called "mind," or "spirit, and this is process, not thing. It exists as activity of nerve cells, not as a thing, spiritual or otherwise.

Wakey wakey...., time to let go of that little idea...and become enlightened. wink
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28492 - 11/26/08 12:43 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
yourmaker316 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/26/08
Posts: 17
Loc: Delaware, United States of Ame...
Well i do see what you're getting at, but as you did bring god into this you kinda gotta ask yourself is this truly ethical. I mean one of the charactaristics of being a biotic creature is to age and develope.

Sure it's unatural but if you can get this research moving it may turn out to be one of those kick ass discoveries like flight.
_________________________
I think therefore I'm MAN.

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