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#28290 - 11/10/08 04:58 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

BTW, I agree with Tolle that all emotions, including happy and sad ones, arise from the ego. I also acknowledge I have not as yet mastered handling all my emotions; but I am working on it.


All energy arises from Spirit. The ego filters energies thru a collection of beliefs and ideas based on identity of reality and self into opinions. Taking stands in opinions from belief create emotional attachment and judgment.

The mind that is not situated in spirit but in the ego cannot master spirit, but it will attempt to master what it knows about itself.
Unfortunately the ego knows nothing of itself, only its opinions and judgments. It can't distance itself from its beliefs to be objective and witness itself in its beliefs.

To the ego self mastery is rearranging opinion to fit current beliefs, or the adding of more knowledge filtered thru those beliefs to create the ego differently.
Beliefs constantly change so the ego masters nothing, only changes priorities like a chameleon changes the color of its surface appearances.
The psyche (emotional body) remains filled with the collections of opinions and the outside shifts as the mind draws from the limited bank of egoic ideals, putting on a display of surface appearances to blend with what the mind has attached itself to as the true reality, the ever changing mixture of appearances reflected by the inner conglomeration of beliefs, opinions and judgments.

Without knowing God/Spirit/Now, true mastery of the Self and detachment from emotional disguises of pomp and circumstance of the ego is not possible. What the ego projects as God/Spirit/Now is drawn from the identification of ego and itself, not the Now/God/Spirit.

What is created is a sort of self hypnosis of a mind in ignorance, trying to create an idea that it is a mind that is not ignorant.
Without the personality knowing the Truth, trying to make truth appear on the surface is like trying to conjure health from sickness by boiling toads and herbs and dancing around a fire.

It would be like trying to hypnotize yourself into being a brain surgeon and operating on someone without every having spent the time or commitment to the knowledge and mastery of brain surgery under the guidance of someone who has.

The results aren't very pretty, and are most obvious.

History has shown us through the display of religious leaders and institutions how the ego has determined spirit/God looks and acts when the ego takes charge.

The very few who have come to speak of Truth have been misunderstood from the subjective states of consciousness of the observer which have been and are ego driven.

The few who have studied with the masters directly have become more cognizant of the reality of Truth.

Some who have awakened in their lifetime to the Truth without the memory of their previous tutelage are those such as Krishnamurti and Eckhart Tolle.
Having gained popularity for their awareness (without the awareness of how the mind makes the evolutionary transition from ego to Spirit awareness) are themselves incapable of leading another in taking steps to empty the psyche of egoic belief and stress in the nervous system which anchors the ego in place.
They can speak of the Truth and the few who resonate with it but don't have the experience of it, only feel the distant call of the heart which is buried under layers of conditioning and belief. It then can be a matter of discussion pertaining to belief and opinion but it does not become unified in each as the same Truth eternal. It becomes subject to limitation of the surface opinion and inner belief.

People such as Krishnamurti and Tolle awaken a desire that is in everyone; the highest desire of humanity, to awaken to unity of spirit and body. But regardless of the subtle voice, the ego which is in charge influences all thought and action around and away from spirit toward the ego's best laid plans in limitation and separation of spirit and the manifest.

Unless one has a way to draw the spirit within outward, by taking the mind past the ego and into the spirit continually erasing the influences of the ego, the ego will remain intact forever influencing all thought and action.

Self hypnosis only seeks to bury the known and conjure the unknown because it is initiated at the surface of the mind where the ego lives.

True mastery of the Self requires time and commitment to immersion of mind in spirit. And if one hasn't the guidance of one who has made the journey, one can only imagine as those who have shown us from historic testimony of church and belief, how successful we can be from the surface of the mind.

One can wait to see if they have an automatic awakening such as Krishnamurti, or Tolle, But those who have studied themselves under the guidance of Such Masters as Buddha or Jesus know that without proper guidance such a desire is less than fruitful. Those who awaken in one lifetime have spent in previous lifetimes under guidance of masters, time in self study of the Spirit within.

No words of man can contain spirit and so no amount of reading can free the mind of ego no matter how clear the source of the script. The ego will always translate the words according to belief and opinion.
Also no amount of listening to clear descriptions will unfold the truth of reality if the mind is sitting in the theater of beliefs and individual opinion.
Where the fragmented minds of ego dissect the infinite into the finite, it is not even possible to piece those fragments into a whole for the infinite is beyond the imagination of wholeness and the infinite would not be infinite if it could be fragmented into parts.
_________________________
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#28293 - 11/10/08 10:14 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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TT states
Quote:
The few who have studied with the masters directly have become more cognizant of the reality of Truth.
Wow! Interesting.

Ellis, unless one of "The Few ..." happens to be TT, I wonder if it could arranged--now that the time is now ripe--for us in this forum to have one of "The few ..." get it touch with us?


Edited by Revlgking (11/10/08 10:23 PM)
Edit Reason: It needed it!

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#28294 - 11/10/08 11:01 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Rev--- your comment seemed to be a little personally agressive, so I said 'backoff'. I am amongst all the other things, a pacifist!

By the way I admire your reason for editing!! We should all be so honest!!

TT- I am feeling that you redefine words to suit your meaning. Whilst this is not a new thing (think of the Ministry of Truth in '1984') it does verge on cheating. Or to quote, perhaps you agree with, I can't remember if it was Humpty Dumpty or the Cheshire Cat in Alice in Wonderland, "a word can mean whatever you wish it to".


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#28295 - 11/10/08 11:25 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, I appreciate what you say about words and their meanings.

With this in mind, I am not clear what atheists have in mind when they use the word 'God'. What do you have in mind?

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#28296 - 11/11/08 12:30 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Ellis]
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
"a word can mean whatever you wish it to".


That would be the essence of relative truth.

The ancient Sanskrit language was developed when a high state of consciousness tuned into the vibrational frequencies of matter.
Where today we use words that have different meanings, the essence of the words in Sanskrit vibrated with the very source of the object perceived.
In the Bible the word of God is referred to as the Aum, Om or Amen. Within that vibration is contained all vibrations of the manifest.
When someone says something it resonates with the impression within the consciousness of that person.
The higher the levels of consciousness the more distinct or sharp the resonance.
At various levels of stress in the human nervous system or when the ego is saturating the intellect, the vibratory rate of consciousness in the brain is clouded with multitudes of ideas. Thought is cluttered with thought.
Thought is dense.

Words used effectively at refined levels of awareness are perceived by refined levels of consciousness.
Words used at high levels of consciousness are not understood at lower levels of consciousness, which is why Jesus spoke in parables to separate those who were developed enough to understand from those who were not evolved enough to advance.

Those who do not know consciousness at a refined level, do not perceive Consciousness that is refined.
From the surface appearances of the thick intellect everything is relative.

The analogy is often used that if an enlightened master were to appear to the masses he/she would not likely be recognized. For there are no distinguishing characteristics on the surface to identify with.
Then if one was to speak of Truth absolute... well we all know were that goes and how open people are to receive such nonsense...

There is a Sanskrit word, "Samyamah," which refers to the ability to follow a word through its vibratory pathway to the source of its birth in idea and in absolute beginning.
It is in itself a form of intuitive sense which allows one to unite at a spiritual level with objects of perception within projected reality.

Jesus when he was about 9 years old lectured his own school teacher for his ignorance and inability to grasp the vibration of language and the meaning in each letter in the Aramaic alphabet for its own distinct message.
The letters grouped together in a word had an underlying spiritual meaning which lifted the word into purpose and intent.
One word in the Sanskrit language can have 10 different meanings, to understand how it is used and what it means would take a refined intellect.

The reason the bible has been so mistranslated as are many of the ancient texts is because the level of consciousness of the translators is not at the same level as that of the master who spoke the words.

Anyone can hear the words but not everyone can hear the message behind them, regardless of how clear the source.

The English language of today with its many meanings and shortcomings of misunderstanding, is testimony to the degradation of the intellect as it is out of tune with the spirit.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28297 - 11/11/08 03:59 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
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TT- I love playing with words and language. I love to shock by the use of a word that is out of context or has an unanticipated meaning. I am constantly thankful that English is my first language, as it is appallingly difficult to learn to fluency precisely because of its habit of absorbing other languages and its flexibility in grammar and syntax. However there are still rules and defining "independence" and "diversity" as you did extends the meaning to a stage where those particular words in that context were meaningless, and thus did not advance your argument.

You write- "Where today we use words that have different meanings, the essence of the words in Sanskrit vibrated with the very source of the object perceived."
and
"Words used effectively at refined levels of awareness are perceived by refined levels of consciousness."

These are interesting ideas, though I am uncomfortable with the idea that only the "refined" can unerstand the words fully. Good communication should enable all to participate and understand clearly. On the other hand the idea that words need to be considered and chosen carefully is one that I fully agree with.

Rev... Bear in mind, I am merely one stray atheist so I cannot speak for others but when I hear the word god I think of god.

Dict def..
1. the supreme or ultimate reality; the being whom people see as creator and ruler of the universe etc.

I just don't "believe in" him/her/it. Or anything divine or supernatural stuff. And you've asked me that before....and no.. I'm not sad and vicious!

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#28298 - 11/11/08 04:23 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Ellis]
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
TT- I love playing with words and language. I love to shock by the use of a word that is out of context or has an unanticipated meaning. I am constantly thankful that English is my first language, as it is appallingly difficult to learn to fluency precisely because of its habit of absorbing other languages and its flexibility in grammar and syntax. However there are still rules and defining "independence" and "diversity" as you did extends the meaning to a stage where those particular words in that context were meaningless, and thus did not advance your argument.

My statements don't need to advance or go anywhere. They are clear regardless of whether you understand them or not. Therefore the words are not intended to create an argument.
That is the beauty of language. It is conveyed and one understands if they listen. One does not have to struggle to make others understand. They do or they don't, that is what separates levels of consciousness and understanding.
Only the ego invests itself in what others believe and think.
You wouldn't expect a child to raise its level of understanding by keeping it at the level of a child, and an adult does not have to become a child to speak to the child. The adult plants seeds of knowledge which grow as the experience level of the child advances.
Originally Posted By: Ellis

You write- "Where today we use words that have different meanings, the essence of the words in Sanskrit vibrated with the very source of the object perceived."
and
"Words used effectively at refined levels of awareness are perceived by refined levels of consciousness."

These are interesting ideas, though I am uncomfortable with the idea that only the "refined" can unerstand the words fully. Good communication should enable all to participate and understand clearly. On the other hand the idea that words need to be considered and chosen carefully is one that I fully agree with.

Being conscious enough to inject knowledge from wisdom into the psyche does require a high degree of awareness. To make words to keep a child a child does disservice to the immortal soul within which is no child.
The part of you that is uncomfortable is the part that does not like being out of control.

_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28299 - 11/11/08 05:41 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Speaking of language, I happen to have in my library a copy of the book, THE HEBREW TONGUE RESTORED--And the true meaning of the Hebrew Words re-established and proved by their radical analysis.

It is by the French scholar Fabre d'Olivet (1815). The edition I have was done in 1921. The English translation is by Nayan Louise Redfield. Interestingly, d'Olivet claims that the Hebrew contained in Genesis is the pure idiom of the ancient Egyptians...According to Genesis, the Hebrews remained in Egypt some four hundred years.

According to the Essenian tradition every word in theSepher (book of formation) of Moses contains three meanings--the positive or simple, the comparative or figurative, the superlative or hieratic. Definitely not literally.

For example the root of the Hebrew, ELOHIM (Genesis 1:1), which, though in plural form, we translate as 'God', is EL or AL (used as a logo on Israeli airplanes). It symbolizes power and movement moving extensively and in all directions. Surely physicists, including materialistic atheists, who are interested in understanding the nature of such power must believe that it is there to be understood.

ABOUT THE BOOK OF FORMATION
http://www.qabbalah.de/qabbalah_book%20_formation.html#1

Letters of the Hebrew alphabet:
http://www.jewfaq.org/alephbet.htm


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#28300 - 11/11/08 05:51 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis
Quote:
I just don't "believe in" him/her/it. Or anything divine or supernatural stuff....
Ellis, neither do I. Also, GOD (EL/AL)--symbol of the reality of all Being and the Now--is not a him/her/it. BTW, I find all Nature superb.



Edited by Revlgking (11/11/08 05:54 AM)

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#28301 - 11/11/08 06:04 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Is it not true that the name of the Hebrew god was so sacred it was never uttered?

I think that that is precisely what physisists do, but they call it explaining physical (and other) forces, and some of them approach such a task as a puzzle to be solved, not an enigma to be worshipped.

Nature, of which we are a small part, is superb. We are in agreement.

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#28302 - 11/11/08 10:45 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Ellis]
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
Is it not true that the name of the Hebrew god was so sacred it was never uttered?

I think that that is precisely what physisists do, but they call it explaining physical (and other) forces, and some of them approach such a task as a puzzle to be solved, not an enigma to be worshipped.


The reference is to the idea that God is not a puzzle to be solved but that it is something that can be experienced.
Therefore to try to encapsulate the meaning in a name was futile.

Scientists can explore nature and they will find things within the realm of mechanics and natural law that are exposed in nature at the level in which they explore.
Whatever machines are created in the physical limits of the imagination will validate what they limit God to.
The only machine capable of joining God in the limitless is not manufactured and does not measure God, it only joins God.
That would be the human soul.
To surrender the physical to the unmanifest is the height of worship. All superstitious meanings are of the ego.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28304 - 11/11/08 01:37 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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THE GREAT SCIENTIST, PHILOSOPHER AND MATHEMATICIAN, Alfred North Whitehead, In his book, Science and the Modern World, said, long before Tolle and others spoke of the Now:

"In a certain sense, everything is everywhere at all times."

For the mathematical roots of Whitehead's cosmological thought check out:

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2365

THE EVERYTHING (that is, total sum of everything physical, mental and spiritual, in the Now) THAT IS EVERYWHERE AND ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Interesting.

And, to me it sounds like a good definition of what I have in mind when I say, G(null)D, or GOD.
Keep in mind: I have to write it two ways, because, except in my signature, my 'puter keeps changing the acronym, G(null)D, which I like, into G,D.

BTW, orthdox Jews write 'G-d'--for the same reason I use GOD or G(null)D--to make us aware that, for them, G-d is not a person, thing or an it.


Edited by Revlgking (11/11/08 02:56 PM)
Edit Reason: life all of life, it needed it
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28311 - 11/14/08 12:09 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Anonymous
Unregistered


God is more than any sum of physical manifestations or everything, for God is not a thing

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#28312 - 11/14/08 03:56 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Anonymous]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
God is more than any sum of physical manifestations or everything, for God is not a thing.
Agreed! However, do you agree that things and people, including us, live and have our being in GOD?

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#28315 - 11/14/08 03:06 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Being human in God is a relative idea only experienced by the ego. From the awareness of being God (Unity) there is only God.

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#28318 - 11/14/08 03:39 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Thislin Offline
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As an atheist I have to stab at this one: I avoid "God" when referring to my personal ideas about the universe. "God" only appears when I am talking about theists and their beliefs.

Others are not so cautious and use "God" as a shorthand for "whatever it is that is ultimately responsible for the universe, if anything."

One thing is sure--it is not possible to conclude that someone is a theist only because they refer to God. Even if they don't refer to "God" as I describe above, they may still just be a closeted atheist politician.

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#28319 - 11/14/08 03:46 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Thislin Offline
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My understanding of the reason many Jews do not use "God" is not what you say but because they want to avoid idolatry. I once asked and got that answer. The individual in question also did that with "Jesus" and "Allah," but not with "Buddha," because, I was told, the Buddha is not ever worshiped (I don't think the guy had ever been to Sri Lanka).

Of course, "Buddha" is not a name, but only a title: come to think of it the same thing applies to "Allah" and "God."


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#28323 - 11/14/08 05:33 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Thislin]
Revlgking Offline
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The same applies to 'Christ'--meaning gifted, blessed, or anointed, one. IMO, it is good for anyone, including atheists, to be 'gifted'. In addition, I am more concerned with being orthoprax--having the right kind of actions; not just orthodox--having the right set of beliefs.

Allah (Arabic) and Eloh(Hebrew) allude to the highest power; Theos (Greek) alludes to the highest idea and God (Anglo/Saxon) alludes to the highest good. 'God' is the short way of saying 'the one, powerful and good idea" (TOPAGI). Do atheists believe that such is possible? The god of moral and ethical atheists could be TOPAGI. smile

To avoid idolatry of the mind--using a name, or a noun, I prefer using the acronym GOD. When I am in my agnostic mode, or have a lot of questions, I can use G?D. In my money-raising mode I could use G$D smile In my dyslexic mode it could be DOG.

BTW, it is good to have so many gifted atheists and agnostic with whom to dialogue. It helps me keep my aging--one more year to the big 80--brain sharp. Thanks!


Edited by Revlgking (11/14/08 09:48 PM)

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#28327 - 11/14/08 11:40 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Rev said-"The god of moral and ethical atheists could be TOPAGI."

Cute initials but as I have explained many times the term 'atheism' describes a lack of belief, not a rejection of specific beliefs. So atheists believe in no gods at all, not even the extravagantly named TOPAGI.

As Thislin accurately states, atheists only refer to god to describe the "whatever" it is that theists worship.

CONGRATULATIONS on the 79 years Rev!! You've lost none of the feistiness! I hope you continue to debate for many more years yet.


Edited by Ellis (11/14/08 11:46 PM)
Edit Reason: Congrats to Rev

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#28328 - 11/15/08 12:00 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Trying to circumvent idolotry thru the intellect and attachment to words doesn't give you much freedom. As you dance around the ego of so many diverse beliefs trying to sharpen the point of a conversation in meaning, or to avoid creating a disturbance in some belief system divided by social programming only creates a from of diplomacy that is ultimately motivated by caution and fear. To live in constant defense and public co-dependence is what the spiritual teachings call suffering. It is the suffering of the ego.
Before the dogma of language became a problem of ego, those who were adept in conversation were capable of listening, rather than laying personal meanings on top of the words that were spoken by others.
If someone was speaking of their experience of God, the listener was tuning into the others experience. The words when listened to in language that was more attuned to the vibratory resonance that played between the spirit and the listener, the speaker was the reflective medium or the device to bring that experience to the surface.
This was the case with Jesus. The Christ was the living medium that lived in the manifestation of Jesus that allowed the spirit to speak without the attachments of egoic belief and dogma of language. Like a radio reciever that translates the message on the airwaves brodacast from the source to the human ear.

Today it seems instead of listening, the ego with all of its ideals and superstition, keeps turning the dials of the receiver until the voice comes out exactly as the listener expects their message of reality to appear.

Open discussion and expression of experience is now limted to personal belief and the dogma of superstitious etiquette.
Don't speak of God unless you do it on my terms kind of thinking. And it all makes even less sense if each is making their excuses without the actual experience of spirit within themselves radiating outward into everything experienced.

Unless someone actually immerses the intellect into spirit all the talking around it without actually gettiing to know it seems a bit irrelevent.

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