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#28330 - 11/15/08 03:39 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Anonymous]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Anon: To insist that noone should speak of god unless they do so with your "terms kind of thinking" is bizarre and arrogant. I agree that it is the minutia of dogma and belief that can cause misunderstanding and even war, but we are as humans should be able to deal with such divisions sensibly and with maturity. It is this diversity that makes us such an interesting species.

We all make assumptions regarding meaning within language. That is why I am so pedantic about the need for care in defining terms. Words are very important, but there are many actual languages, and sometimes they are all trying to convey identical meanings, which of course are coloured by the cultural background of the writer or speaker. As a result of course there are layers of meaning. I see nothing sinister in that. What you do find though, if you are ever in a place where you cannot understand a word people are saying, that there is often a universal need for communication. Sometimes this can be non-verbal, other times it can be an example of shared cooperation and with cooperation understanding can be achieved, --- though not always agreement. But does that matter?

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#28339 - 11/15/08 02:01 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
Anon: To insist that none should speak of god unless they do so with your "terms kind of thinking" is bizarre and arrogant.
Bizarre! Arrogant! Right on, Ellis. Would you also add, opaque?

BTW, Ellis, May I ask Anon: Are you related to TT. smile

BTW 2, I suspect that when Anon wrote:
Quote:
"Don't speak of God unless you do it on my terms kind of thinking."
he did not intend to offer it as his point of view. We'll see.

If I am right this is an example of opaque, unclear, writing. But none the less, much of Anon's post is, like that of TT's posts--it is filled with the attitude of an arrogant ego with a hot line to God.

Incidentally, I only wish there was such a thing as a human-like and objective god--the kind atheists say they can live without. BTW 3, because I know--at least strongly suspect--there is no such god, so can I.


Edited by Revlgking (11/15/08 04:43 PM)

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#28341 - 11/15/08 06:40 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
BTW, atheists, what you you mean when you say, "We can live without gods, or God?"


Edited by Revlgking (11/15/08 06:47 PM)

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#28347 - 11/15/08 11:42 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
BTW, atheists, what you you mean when you say, "We can live without gods, or God?"

Just what it says Rev.... Or perhaps a subtle change would be more accurate--as in- "We can live without a belief in god".

In fairness to the Anon poster I feel that he/she had some issue with that sort of thinking also, although the actual text in the post is ambiguous. However I would like to give him/her the benefit of the doubt. I would still criticise very sharply those who have such a closed point of view.

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#28350 - 11/16/08 01:34 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Ellis]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Ellis
Anon: To insist that noone should speak of god unless they do so with your "terms kind of thinking" is bizarre and arrogant.
To assume I insist anything is the result of misunderstanding. Which is why I said what I said regarding the ability to discuss God without the intellect being immersed in God.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking


BTW, Ellis, May I ask Anon: Are you related to TT. smile

I am TT, I just happen to be in Hong Kong and not at my own computer so I haven't logged in to my own account.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking


BTW 2, I suspect that when Anon wrote:
Quote:
"Don't speak of God unless you do it on my terms kind of thinking."
he did not intend to offer it as his point of view. We'll see.

If I am right this is an example of opaque, unclear, writing. But none the less, much of Anon's post is, like that of TT's posts--it is filled with the attitude of an arrogant ego with a hot line to God.

It would be from your persepective Rev., your lack of experience in the immsersion of spirit and the threat to your ego and its indpendent nature to cling to changing ideas and ideals that are personal to you. It is only the insistence to identify with your beliefs and independant opinion that prevents the death of the ego.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Incidentally, I only wish there was such a thing as a human-like and objective god--the kind atheists say they can live without. BTW 3, because I know--at least strongly suspect--there is no such god, so can I.

Jesus was such a human-like God. A person immersed in spirit and absolute truth. Those that could not imagine anything other than personal opinion could not grasp the extent of his being nor what he had to say.

Originally Posted By: Ellis
Or perhaps a subtle change would be more accurate--as in- "We can live without a belief in god".

We could, for any belief is just as irrelevant as non-belief. People will still have an opinion of good and evil even if some vague idea of an omnipresent nature has connected us at a level beyond the personal projections of imagination and superstition.
Originally Posted By: Ellis

In fairness to the Anon poster I feel that he/she had some issue with that sort of thinking also, although the actual text in the post is ambiguous. However I would like to give him/her the benefit of the doubt. I would still criticise very sharply those who have such a closed point of view.

You might have a different idea if you found how unimaginitive the ego really is when it comes to connecting to God.

If you had a TV and never plugged it in, you might speak all you wanted to about what was on the TV while it was unplugged, but to actually grasp what was on it when it is plugged in would be less than accurate if even intellgent if you never saw it in action while plugged in with all circuits of communication active.

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#28351 - 11/16/08 02:28 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered









A holy man was having a conversation with the Lord one day and said, 'Lord, I would like to know what Heaven and Hell are like.'


The Lord led the holy man to two doors.


He opened one of the doors and the holy man looked in. In the middle of the room was a large round table. In the middle of the table was a large pot of stew, which smelled delicious and made the holy man's mouth water .

The people sitting around the table were thin and sickly. They appeared to be famished. They were holding spoons with very long handles that were strapped to their arms and each found it possible to reach into the pot of stew and take a spoonful. But because the handle was longer than their arms, they could not get the spoons back into their mouths.


The holy man shuddered at the sight of their misery and suffering.


The Lord said, 'You have seen Hell.'


They went to the next room and opened the door. It was exactly the same as the first one. There was the large round table with the large pot of stew which made the holy man's mouth water. The people were equipped with the same long-handled spoons, but here the people were well nourished and plump, laughing and talking. The holy man said, 'I don't understand.'


It is simple,' said the Lord. 'It requires but one skill. You see they have learned to feed each other, while the greedy think only of themselves.'




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#28352 - 11/16/08 05:12 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Anonymous]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
TT claims:
Quote:
Jesus was such a human-like God.
To the exclusion of all others?

Then how come that John 10:34, John 17:20-24--and many other passages--make it clear that nowhere does Jesus ever claim: "I am the exclusive son of God, and no one else is?"

Paul also makes it clear that we are all called to sons, and daughters of--that is, one with--God.

IMO, son ship and daughter ship is the gift that comes to us when we choose to be, and live, at one ship with the highest good, GOD.

BTW, TT, over the years I have used the rather valuable parable you told, a number of times. Deeds, not creeds, are what count.

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#28353 - 11/16/08 06:46 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Ellis
BTW, atheists, what do you mean when you say, "We can live without gods, or God?"

Just what it says Rev.... Or perhaps a subtle change would be more accurate--as in- "We can live without a belief in god". ...
OK, if that is how you feel, it is how you feel. But you seem to value living. Therefore, consider this question: What is living? What is life?

IMO--and it is just my opinion--GOD, or Being, and life, with all its physical, mental and spiritual sensations, of all kinds--are all part of the mix. And this is something I would not like to be without.

For me, living physically--not to mention living mentally and spiritually--involves my using all my physical senses.

Theoretically, it is possible one could still be alive without the five senses. But it is hard for me to imagine what physical life would be like if I lost my five senses--my sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch and still be aware.

This reminds me of the research done by Dr. Wilder Penfield, the famous brain surgeon who was very interested in how the brain functions?

In the 1950's, using students at McGill University, Montreal, he did a series of experiments to find out what would happen if the students were deprived of sight, sound and other physical sensations for an extended period of time.

The students were well paid to do nothing. The were told just to lie there and float, motionlessly, in tank of water while being deprived of light and sound.

By touching a button they could stop the experiment any time. But very few lasted more than a few hours. Some witnessed that they were virtually on the verge of going insane before the hellish psychic pain forced them to touch the button.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilder_Penfield
http://www.histori.ca/minutes/minute.do?id=10211
http://www.answers.com/topic/wilder-penfield


Edited by Revlgking (11/16/08 06:49 AM)

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#28363 - 11/16/08 04:10 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Thislin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Vietnam
In my experience, the biggest problem theists have with atheism is the fact that atheism seems to provide no foundation for existence--especially no purpose and no moral or ethical structure.

Frankly I find most of the answers atheists give to these criticisms to be sappy rationalization, and I don't think the criticisms can be refuted. A world inhabited by God or even by Olympian super-beings is far more pleasant to imagine than one with no purpose and no morality.

Still, it is a fallacy to believe something because one does not like the consequences of the alternative.

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#28364 - 11/16/08 09:35 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Thislin]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
YOUR INVITATION TO BE PART OF A GREAT MOVEMENT TO HELP OVERCOME EVIL WITH GOOD
===============================================================
I repeat: As a unitheist and interested is helping create a new reality, I admire people, including atheists and agnostics, who really can--and I don't mean those who pretend they can--live moral, ethical, useful and happy lives on the basis of physicalism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physicalism

BUT ISN'T PHYSICALISM ENOUGH?
Physicalism is a philosophical position holding that everything which exists is no more extensive than its physical properties; that is, that there are no kinds of things other than physical things. The term was coined by Otto Neurath in a series of early 20th century essays on the subject, in which he wrote:

"According to physicalism, the language of physics is the universal language of science and, consequently, any knowledge can be brought back to the statements on the physical objects."

Physicalists are those who choose to say: "I can live quite well without believing in gods, or God, especially the kind imposed by certain religionists." They have every right to do so.

WHEN LIFE HANDS YOU A LEMON
But what happens when life does turn sour? More often than not, our lot in life is not a happy one. For most people, atheists included, there are times when we are called on to face evils that cause us much suffering, pain and even the tragedy of death. What then?

BTW, I will leave it to atheists themselves to tell us how they handle life when it turns sour; when evil circumstances--often inflicted by the so-called Bible, Koran, etc-believers--seem to immerse their lives in pain and misery.

THE PROCESS PHILOSOPHY AND THEOLOGY OF ALFRED NORTH WHITEHEAD
=============================================================
Meanwhile, as a unitheist--that is, one who is very critical of traditional theism, deism and pantheism--I am proud to be one person is a great movement known as process philosophy and theology (PPT). Heaven is not destiny; it is a process.

PPT is dedicated to developing a new kind of reality based on a rational faith and an open theology. It is one which is not afraid to explore that which is beyond reason, but it does not advocate going contrary to it.

THIS MOVEMENT IS GROWING
Some very brilliant male and female minds, many professors at our great institutions of learning,have come to the conclusion --dreamed of long ago by the great prophets of all the great religions--that we live, move and have our being in an infinite and eternal universe--which I call GOD--a kind of quantum computer, which is just waiting for us to connect with it and tune in to its unlimited supply of god-like knowledge, wisdom and power, which is available for us to use and begin the creation of a love-based reality.

BTW, no one is insisting that god-talk must be used by those who, for personal reasons, find it uncomfortable to do so. This being granted, why why would any rational person interested in being part of creating a better reality conclude that the philosophy of physicalism is our only option?

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#28367 - 11/17/08 01:16 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Revlgking
TT claims:
Quote:
Jesus was such a human-like God.
To the exclusion of all others?

Then how come that John 10:34, John 17:20-24--and many other passages--make it clear that nowhere does Jesus ever claim: "I am the exclusive son of God, and no one else is?"

Paul also makes it clear that we are all called to sons, and daughters of--that is, one with--God.

IMO, son ship and daughter ship is the gift that comes to us when we choose to be, and live, at one ship with the highest good, GOD.

BTW, TT, over the years I have used the rather valuable parable you told, a number of times. Deeds, not creeds, are what count.


The Christ Consciousness or Self Realization or Enlightenment in the highest state of Human Consciousness Jesus achieved is not exclusive to Jesus. However it is not an opinion and not an egoic choice to slap relative definitions of unity or good will that creates Christed Consciousness.
Therefore it was not the teaching of Jesus or any other enlightened master that one simply decide for themselves they are enlightened and one with everything that one becomes liberated from ego.

And yes many use the parable but not many posses the level of consciousness to be aware of what each individual needs in order to break the bonds of ego.
Instead the ego enables the ego, offering food to the hungry without enlivening their ability to feed themselves, Clothe the shivering without enabling the desire to clothe themselves. The ego fears death and helps to spread fear of death. Unity from the ego means everyone works together even if it means they work to the goal of self destruction and anihilation, like lemmings screaming toward the edge of a cliff. Ego makes opinion freedom and God, even if it is an opinion derived without knowledge and experience, and then in democratic process it creates a majority of rules founded on principles of opinion rather than principles of knowlege and experience.
In summary, a rule labled as "Golden" to protect individuality in the name of ignorance and conjecture, giving ego supreme rule above and beyond Christed Consciousness.

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#28368 - 11/17/08 01:30 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Thislin]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Thislin

Still, it is a fallacy to believe something because one does not like the consequences of the alternative.

Or because they don't like the feeling they get from something other.
Beliefs are constantly changing with opinion and new knowlege.
The infinite is beyond all beliefs and opinion but it is difficult to give up all opinion and belief without direct experience of something greater than all opinion and belief.
The ego lives only in the world of belief, definition and changing opinion. It cannot see anything other, and so from the ego there is never unity of One Mind or underlying principle.
All principles in the relative are subject to changing belief and opinion. The ego then tries to build on what it likes and also tries to push away all that it does not like, never taking the intellect beyond surface values and perceptions to connect the opposites to the source of all humanity in one universal mind.
Beliefs then become product of both imagination and programs passed from one generation to another struggling to fit the universe into boxes that protect individuality in limitation and influence.
Atheism is, in itself a determination to free ones sense of Self from the opinion of others so that it can be free of dogma. It is a psychological religion of free will only.

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#28377 - 11/17/08 08:33 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Thislin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Vietnam
Physicalism needs to be distinguished from atheism. Most Asian religions (at least those in China) would often meet the definition of atheist, but are not physicalist. ("Physicalism" replaces the older "materialism.") So when I self-identify as an atheist, it does not necessarily imply that I subscribe to Western notions of atheism, that assert that only physical processes (matter-energy) exist.

As far as the physicalist-atheist being admirable for living a moral life in spite of there being no philosophical foundation for doing so, I would suggest that they do so for the same reasons most religious believers do so--convenience, habit and childhood training.

Those who are truly immoral are rare (we call them sociopaths and it seems to be a mental abnormality). Very few people make moral decisions on philosophical or religious grounds, although they often explain or justify them after the fact by resorting to this sort of argument. The criminal is typically efficient at finding justifications within these systems--we all have to live with ourselves, and this includes living with our childhood indoctrination into cultural norms.


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#28380 - 11/17/08 11:03 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Thislin]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
"So when I self-identify as an atheist, it does not necessarily imply that I subscribe to Western notions of atheism, that assert that only physical processes (matter-energy) exist."
Thislin, I take it from this that you and I concur: What is needed, IMO, is a redefinition of the god-concept.

BTW, I started this process, decades ago!

Please, take note of my signature. Meanwhile, I invite you to join the movement. That is, let us make a sincere attempt to define the god-concept--one that takes it out of the hands of the religionists and puts it in the hands of the people and which includes philosophy, the sciences and the arts...and is flexible.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#28382 - 11/17/08 11:34 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Revlgking
That is, let us make a sincere attempt to define the god-concept--one that takes it out of the hands of the religionists and puts it in the hands of the people and which includes philosophy, the sciences and the arts...and is flexible.


Fools (EGO) taking from fools creating more foolishness...

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#28383 - 11/18/08 03:35 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Anonymous]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Rev- In this morning's paper, (The Age) there was a news item about a "Global Campaign"to apply the Golden Rule worldwide. Involved in the launch of this initiative were representatives of Christians, Jews and Muslims. It sounded like something that would interest you, but I have never learned how to post those blue links at all so I'll just give the LINK as in the paper--

charterforcompassion.com

You could probably google it too. I hope you (and anyone else) can get to read it as it is interesting!

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#28385 - 11/18/08 04:30 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Ellis, just write it like this: put http://www. in front of the name, OK? BTW, Thanks. I have met Karen Armstrong, a former RC Nun. She is very much a universalist, which I am, as a unitheist.

http://www.charterforcompassion.com


Edited by Revlgking (11/18/08 04:31 AM)

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#28388 - 11/18/08 08:39 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Thislin Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 20
Loc: Vietnam
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Quote:
"So when I self-identify as an atheist, it does not necessarily imply that I subscribe to Western notions of atheism, that assert that only physical processes (matter-energy) exist."
Thislin, I take it from this that you and I concur: What is needed, IMO, is a redefinition of the god-concept.
A group of people cannot redefine words. This is the activity of lawyers who want to confuse the issues. Whatever "God" means to a person is what it means. I think to most of us the word implies a being (purpose, intelligence) of infinite magnitude. The idea of the existence of such a being can be, as I see it, nothing but religion.

I doubt the existence of anything infinite and I certainly see no evidence of intelligence in the working of the universe at large.


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#28396 - 11/18/08 05:14 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Thislin]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
A group of people cannot redefine words.
Are you sure they cannot, Thislin? In my experience it happens all the time.

You say, "... "God" means to a person is what it means. I think to most of us the word implies a being (purpose, intelligence) of infinite magnitude." and you are right.

IMO, most people do not believe in and act on a "god" based on the reality of the universe--physical, mental and spiritual--all that is.

They offer lip service to an idol which they create in their minds. And this is the problem. Most people find it really difficult to trust such an idolatrous concept of god so they go about living lives of despair, dominated by fear, uncertainty and doubt. This of course is the kind of idol which is an easy target for atheists to knock down. Without having to become an atheist, I gave up this god of the psyche, this egoic-kind of god, decades ago.

You say, "I doubt the existence of anything infinite ..." But do you doubt existence itself, including your own?

You say there is, "... no evidence of intelligence in the working of the universe at large."

Are you and I as conscious beings without any kind of intelligence? Is the universe without that which is Good, Orderly and Desirable--or beautiful? The earth as we know it may not have enough GOD supply--that which is good, etc.--in the finished form to supply all those who would like to have them; but it is not without any.

IMO, there is no lack of supply. What is lacking is the motivation, the will, the wit, the wisdom and the practical ability of some human beings to tap into the supply. The good news is: It is not difficult for those with the will to learn how to get involved in this process. I know from experience: It can be taught and learned.

BTW, read John 1: In the beginning was the word (referring to the LOGOS--the intelligent idea behind all things), John 10:20--34FF and John 17:20-24.



Edited by Revlgking (11/18/08 08:12 PM)

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#28398 - 11/19/08 12:59 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Quote:
A group of people cannot redefine words.
Are you sure they cannot, Thislin? In my experience it happens all the time.
Sure it does, but defining God by using words however they are rearranged is still the intellect immersed in ego rather than spirit.
Whether it be religion or someone who disagrees with religion, to take an opinion and to define that as God is still an opinion and not God.
Without immersing the intellect in spirit the ego will always try to define God into changing meanings using words that have no resonance with Spirit but rather with opinion and belief. Building another Church and a religion by definition is still dogma, and not spirituality.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

BTW, read John 1: In the beginning was the word (referring to the LOGOS--the intelligent idea behind all things), John 10:20--34FF and John 17:20-24.

The Logos refers to God as consciousness uniting the unmanifest with the manifest and it is not an idea. You can have an idea of it, but still that idea or definition will not assimilate the extent of reality, only condense limitation of belief and opinion. The word is the manifestation of the unmanifest in the Aum/OM/Amen or vibratory matrix of consciousness as Universal Mind or God in action, the active absolute. It cannot be condensed into an idea or an opinion either, but ego still tries. The condensation of the Om is what is called illusion in Vedic reference, or the Tree of Good and Evil in Western Religion.

_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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