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#28247 - 11/07/08 03:07 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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TT, it seems to me that your comments have the appearance that they are coming from an egoic know-it-all.

TT, writes
Quote:
Thinking from not knowing doesn't create knowing...

Here is the message I get: "I, TT, the-wise-one, always think as one who knows it all...I do not have opinions; I have the truth."

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#28248 - 11/07/08 05:59 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
TT, it seems to me that your comments have the appearance that they are coming from an egoic know-it-all.

TT, writes
Quote:
Thinking from not knowing doesn't create knowing...

Here is the message I get: "I, TT, the-wise-one, always think as one who knows it all...I do not have opinions; I have the truth."





The above response is an egoic reaction. Not the knowing from spirit.

Choose to come from the loving spirit and see if there is a different way to look at it.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28251 - 11/07/08 10:00 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
This would be the result of too much thinking and the inability to consciously make the choice to come from spirit ...
Says TT.

Ellis, does this make any sense to you? The only groups that I know of who avoid thinking are the fundamentalists, of all stripes.
Surely humane, and human, beings are positive thinkers.

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#28252 - 11/07/08 10:07 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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TT tells me
Quote:
The above response is an egoic reaction.
TT, of course it is! And I know that it is. Consciously, I chose to do so.

But are you so unconscious, blind and deaf so as not to realize that so are 100% of your comments?

BTW, the moderator has warned you about this, more than once. Are you reading and listening?

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#28253 - 11/07/08 10:34 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
TT tells me
Quote:
The above response is an egoic reaction.
TT, of course it is! And I know that it is. Consciously, I chose to do so.

That is of course why I commented on the ability to recognize the difference and make choices. Obviously this is the kind of choice you know and prefer.
You consciously chose to limit yourself and me by doing so. Why you would do that is for you shrouded in either mystery or excuse.
It is not something I would do, and I recognize the symptoms because I have a familiarity with Teaching those who wish to know the difference between the ego and spirit.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

But are you so unconscious, blind and deaf so as not to realize that so are 100% of your comments?

Are you saying this is the truth, this your opinion, or have you suddenly decided that you have gotten over not knowing everything?

There is a big difference in being conscious while standing in spirit and conscious while standing in ego.
One is tapped into memory and limits of belief. The other is tapped into omniscience and is what is called Christed Conscious awareness. One is ego and the other is the NOW.
One sees and experiences separation of humanity in individuality and and separation of humanity with God. And the other always sees ONE universal mind in action and all as the same God.
One might believe all is connected, the other experiences it 24/7 in all thought, action and awareness as the only true reality.
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

BTW, the moderator has warned you about this, more than once. Are you reading and listening?

You're implying the moderator doesn't tolerate clarification..
I simply used your own statements so you could gain clarification of where you choose to stand.
You say one thing and do another.
How do you recognize the difference between standing in spirit and ego when you don't know spirit and you consistently refer to your position in the ego?

It was a simple question. You made the statement it was easy, but so far you haven't demonstrated any ability. You only repeat your position of being in the ego by self admission and by action and reaction to my question, stamping the label upon your forehead, and insisting I wear your label too.

Talking the talk is such a different thing than walking it.

Anybody can tell the difference between hot and cold, with a stable experience of the two. But not everyone can tell the difference between one thing and another if the topic of discussion is only an opinion or a belief.

One would have to know the topic, the subjects in question, they would have to be real, and person would have to master a stable experience of both before one could make any reference to either with any clarity.

So far you only state opinions and they are constantly changing.

Furthermore you get awfully upset if anyone makes a statement that is not followed with the qualifying, "This is my opinion" so that all are equally without any real knowledge and experience in equal inferiority.

My idea of reality doesn't follow those guidelines.

I don't think the moderator has a problem with scientifically or theoretically establishing the differences between relative and absolute truths, but I do think the one you keep running to every time you get upset would probably get tired of you whining about your inability to control the conversation when it doesn't go the way you want it to.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28258 - 11/08/08 09:25 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Surely humane, and human, beings are positive thinkers.
Hitler was positive the Jews should be exterminated, and he was destined to lead the world into a new order ruled by the master race. All of Germany who supported this theme thought positively about the goal to take control of the world.

The allies thought positively the man was insane and felt no discordance with bombing Large cities and killing civilians any more than Hitlers Third Reich gave much thought to killing civilians if it got into a pissing contest about who was going to be the stronger.


Being positive is multi-dimensionally determined at differing levels of intelligence and spiritual development.

Thought based on inferior knowledge of reality does not produce greater results by thinking more often about illusions created from belief and lack of knowledge. Our most brilliant men endeavored to satisfy the need to split the atom and destroy hundreds of thousands of lives and irradiate the land making it unsafe to inhabit for the good of humanity.

Relative ideas of the ego and spirit taught from the egoic intellect and the corresponding books written by humane individuals no matter how docile and unassuming, are still fantasy when conjured from the imagination if they are not directly lived from the experience of having overcome the limitations of the ego and having transmuted the illusions of ego to live directly from spirit.
This was the essence of Jesus' teachings, and the pharisees called him a know it all, and a heretic. They called on Pontius Pilate to moderate his teachings and to silence him from speaking by Exterminating his life.
Pilate wasn't too keen on this idea but was forced into satisfying a discordant majority swayed by superstition for fear of losing his position and self esteem as an authoritative figure. Jesus was tried and executed by the laws and beliefs of the ego bound Pharisees, because Pilate was afraid to lose face.

“Be still and know that I am God.” -- Psalms 46:10


After 2000 years some things haven't changed.
Righteousness is still defined by thinkers who choose to live and identify with belief and opinion rather than live by the spirit.
This self defined humane human or ego is what Jesus called the "Son of Man."
What he came to inspire within the Son of Man, was the spirit within to transform the "Son of Man" into the "Son of God."

Fundamentalist thinkers are both religious and non-religious. They base everything on the majority rule of accepted belief in reality even if it is incorrect. Man still hasn't progressed far enough from the earth is flat mentality to have emerged from the ego to understand Spirit and spirituality. Egoic man still wants God to live within his rules, and anyone associated with God to comply with the opinion of relative belief.

It doesn't matter if your biography is a book of self proclaimed accomplishments believed to be righteous by Websters definitions or a two volume world dictionary.
Defining spirit within egoic confines still doesn't do justice to its presence.


If one wants to overcome evil as described in Romans 12.
One would necessarily have to overcome the inability to come from spirit in the making of continuously limited conscious choices to choose to stand in the ego.

To think one would choose for the ego while being conscious of spirit would be the example of Evil.

It would be more believable to think one would claim to make conscious choices to stand in ego and express from ego because the claimant has no familiarity with anything else.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28259 - 11/08/08 03:11 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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TT
Quote:
I don't think the moderator has a problem with scientifically or theoretically establishing the differences between relative and absolute truths, but I do think the one you keep running to every time you get upset would probably get tired of you whining about your inability to control the conversation when it doesn't go the way you want it to.
Now, I am not only guilty of positive thinking--which I have always assumed is a good thing to do--I am also accused of controlling the conversation! What a big LAUGH!!!! laugh laugh The typical blame-the-victim ploy.

BTW posters, speaking of control: Take a look at the last number of TT's mostly unclear posts. Need I say more? smile

From this point on, without lecturing others on how to "think" correctly and how to get it spiritually correct, I choose to stick to the topic at hand and the discussion of ideas. I will ignore all else.


Edited by Revlgking (11/08/08 05:38 PM)

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#28263 - 11/08/08 06:13 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking


From this point on, without lecturing others on how to "think" correctly and how to get it spiritually correct, I choose to stick to the topic at hand and the discussion of ideas.

Well that would be grand, however if you don't understand the topic of discussion it would be difficult to have an idea that was clear.
As I said before, to try and pull the absolute or spirit out of a basket of ideas is a hit or miss proposition. If you don't know what your looking for in the first place how do you recognize it?


You still haven't answered that question.

Originally Posted By: Revlgking

I will ignore all else.

That might be part of your problem. The inability to learn anything new is due to the constant ignoring of anything that doesn't fit into the box of the ego. Insisting the world change to fit into the box, ignoring the vast possibilities of reality and forcing the world to be a certain way is like putting blinders on a horse. Only a certain type of vision is created; without the ability to peripherally absorb the entire picture the mind is limited and isolated in belief and narrow vision.

The horse or "mind" in this case, ceases to be a mind and instead a tool, manipulated by rules created by the master which in this scenario is the ego.

Sometimes an old dog is unwilling, rather than unable to learn new tricks.....
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

Take a look at the last number of TT's mostly unclear posts.

Considering you have made statements to the effect that I am a sociopath, verbose, write long winded posts that you do not understand followed by the insistence that I change my delivery to suit your definitions of reality and have repeatedly claimed that you do not read my posts because because because.... And since you have run to the moderator and repeatedly threatened to run to the moderator every time you get upset, I find it contradictory that you could claim you have anything objective or "from spirit" for that matter, to say anything clearly regarding what I have written.

You're throwing another tantrum Rev.

Try not to live in and from the ego and instead dive into spirit to gain a broader perspective and let's see if something different happens this time.
After all if you want to change the world and remove evil (to stay on topic) one has to understand how one spins evil from the loom of the ego in its thoughts and ideas and how to live differently.

Being able to simply make the choice to change the world would be requisite to the change in ones self and the ability to clearly comprehend reality. If one knows nothing other than the ego and the ego's perception of reality within the duality of Good and Evil, projecting what spirit is like from duality is going to be connected to the ego's best guess of the opposite of evil which is whatever idea is conjured as good.
You can't solve a problem from a level of consciousness in which the problem was created.

Positive thinking includes negative thinking in duality. Whatever one wants to try and maintain is followed by the lurking evil of bad. That is the nature of duality. Positive has its counterpart which is always negative.
From spirit there is no dual nature to reality it is all manifestation of the Absolute ONE spirit eternal.
Coming from that ONE absolute Spirit all is seen as it is, in the isness of the "Now"

“Be still and know that I am God.” -- Psalms 46:10

All wisdom and knowledge comes from the absolute which is met in prayer or deep meditation. When one establishes familiarity with the absolute in constant contact by spending more time with the absolute than the ego one reaches a state called "praying without ceasing."
Like the deep vastness of the Ocean, all that is, was or ever will be rises up to the surface like the waves on the ocean. If one is continually tossed about upon the surface of the ocean knowing nothing but the ideas and thoughts losing familiarity with the ocean and knowing only the waves, one remains in the chatter of thought trying to increase the positive thoughts in and amongst the negative thoughts constantly battling the waves never stabilizing an awareness of the deeper Truth which lay below the waves.

Living and identifying with those ideas is the way of the ego. Without an anchor deep in the ocean of intelligence all concepts of idea and thought, positive ever threatened by the negative, one gets tossed about and bashed between lofty ideals and the fear of isolation and death.

As the waves come and go and the awareness is ever vigilant in the surface activity of the waves the ongoing nature of the ocean remains as new waves are born and die.
Positive and negative come and go, change and mutate in the weather of changing ideas born of identity with surface waves/thoughts and attachments that are the ego.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28266 - 11/08/08 11:02 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
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TT- are you positive that your own perception of ultimate reality, as described by you in your posts, is the only possible experience for everyone, of that state which is described as reality?

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#28268 - 11/09/08 12:30 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Ellis]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
TT- are you positive that your own perception of ultimate reality, as described by you in your posts, is the only possible experience for everyone, of that state which is described as reality?

If we use the Olympic stadium as the medium of experience (as you brought up before) how would you measure the depth of experience of the stadium in a person and their familiarity with it?
If you were the designer and builder, had spent months in every corner of its construction process as well as having lived in it upon completion, it would stand to reason that you would have a pretty good grasp of what was in it and what it was like.
Now anyone who spends time in it whether in the construction phase or just visiting it based on individual personality and beliefs is going to absorb it into experience according to that personality.
Those who just see pictures of it will not have the same experience and the resonance may be completely obvious to someone who was intimately familiar with the contact experience and could tell when someone who just experiences pictures and stories about it as opposed to someone who immersed themselves in it.

Experiences change and are never the same.

Even if two people stand side by side and experience the same object or objects of perception they will experience it differently and take with them what each needs from it based on the levels of stress in their nervous system and their level of spiritually conscious awareness.
This comparison is something that has been studied in Twins who grow up in the same house and end up living completely different lives with diverse desires, experiences of the past and their beliefs.
If we go back to the stadium itself, it never changes within the course of its existence other than what is placed on or in it by independent desire to adorn it according to ceremony and circumstance.
It is the same with the Absolute only unlike the absolute the stadium will decay and collapse over time. The absolute remains timeless and never changes or decays.
You can experience the stability in it and everyone who knows it, knows it itself, does not change. The experiences of it do however, for experience is the approach to an object of sensory immersion and return to individual measures of perception.
How one creates the system of measure is how one sizes the object of perception and either creates the idea of infinite or limitation. This takes place differently at different levels of conscious awareness.
As one rises in conscious awareness, systems of measure no longer apply. Knowledge is infinite, rather than finite.

The absolute itself like the stadium is not an experience. One can have an experience of it but not contain it within the experience. Once you approach it and again have another encounter there may be similarities but the experience is different.
In the case of the absolute it can't really be experienced as an object because it is not an object that can be confined or measured as experience, but it is reflected in consciousness as an experience like an image of the moon in a still pond. A knowing if you will when the mind leaves its limitations of the body and immerses itself in the infinite spirit, it brings back with it the resonance of the unmanifest but cannot contain it or capture it to bring it all into the limits of human perceptions and beliefs of measure. In the immersion of it awareness becomes aware of itself, without boundaries or limits. Once awareness returns to the limits of the manifest world it remains connected after so many trips back and forth in the process of meditation.
Just as color becomes colorfast when immersed in dye and exposed to the sun repeatedly.

If you ask yourself if you know if you are alive what would you say?
Would you say yes because someone told you or yes because you know?
If you fall in love how do you know that you are in love? How would you tell someone and how would they know?
If they did not know love the idea would be somewhat of a stretch to relate to. If one knew about love it would be something one could connect with due to their own experience.

If you take a scientific approach the feelings are simply the effects of firing synapses which you experience as love, and a machine might measure as neural and hormonal activity.
That machine would however be built from the knowledge and confines of belief and boundaries of the relative. The only machine that can become aware of something that has no boundaries is consciousness itself which exists regardless of boundaries and human conditions.

So in the case of conscious awareness of the absolute one has to be able to recognize the absolute within themselves and others, or consciousness in ones self and others that is not limited to boundaries of physical conditions to recognize when someone is having an experience of it. Similar to the designer, builder and occupant of the stadium who has a familiarity of resonance in experience and intimacy with the unchanging stadium.

One describes their experience and one resonates with truth/the stadium not the experience. If one has enough experience in it the resonance reflects a frequency similar to placing two tuning forks in the same room tuned to the same frequency.
One is struck and vibrates and automatically the other begins to vibrate with it at the same frequency.

Consciousness recognizes consciousness.

When one rises above the influences of ego and immerses themselves in the absolute, the understanding of the difference between illusion and Truth become clear.
There is nothing that cannot be known and nothing to limit one to the personal. One can just as easily jump into anothers experience as they jump from one experience to another within their own personality.
Its kind of like an intuitive process but less confined to resolute or abstract beliefs and ideas.

Everything in the manifest is vibrational frequencies of light. Even sound is light at a reduced vibration. Each object has its own fingerprint in time and space even the individual soul.
The OM AUM or The WORD of God as it is called in Western religions embodies all vibrational frequencies like a carrier wave that carries voice and music in a radio channel or frequency. The mind of spirit is a frequency tuner and according to individual needs brings whatever channel is necessary to complete individual desire and facilitate growth in awareness or shifting awareness from experience of relative measure, even experience beyond the relative.

The science of Yoga is compiled of thousands of years of study in the resonance of the absolute and its manifestations.
It was the basis for the Teachings of Buddha and Jesus, and every other master who has lived in body on this and every other planet containing evolving lifeforms of humanity.

I can tell you I know. Whether you believe me or anyone believes me is moot.
Belief does not change or alter the absolute, it continues or is, regardless.

For someone who has no conscious awareness of it, there is no proof until they become conscious enough to experience it. You can't prove it only validate it within yourself and others by being it, or as the term has been of late loosely thrown about, "Being in the NOW". Then you can recognize it in another when they are immersed in it because all thoughts of personality and belief are overshadowed or left behind like wiping the bugs off of a windshield, all that can be seen and experienced is the absolute rather than the bugs obscuring the view or the ego and all of its baggage.

Am I positive?
No, I am absolutely aware.

Is it the only possible experience of everyone in that state of reality?
That reality transcends all possible experiences.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28270 - 11/09/08 05:46 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
TT- are you positive that your own perception of ultimate reality, as described by you in your posts, is the only possible experience for everyone, of that state which is described as reality?
Ellis, old girl, are you not aware that, if you and I were "absolutely aware", we would not need to ask such a silly question? smile

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#28271 - 11/09/08 07:59 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Quote:
TT- are you positive that your own perception of ultimate reality, as described by you in your posts, is the only possible experience for everyone, of that state which is described as reality?
Ellis, old girl, are you not aware that, if you and I were "absolutely aware", we would not need to ask such a silly question? smile
That would be the truth. Nothing on the outside would need to be a marker for comparison or validation for the personal.
There would be no fragmented pieces of reality in need of repair or completion. There would be only the "Now"
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28275 - 11/10/08 12:09 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
That would be the truth.
Says TT.

OK, Ellis, here is what I propose: In the spirit of peace, let us nominate that TT be the arbiter of "truth".

What do you say?, Ellis. Feel free to disagree with me, OK?


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#28276 - 11/10/08 12:30 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Posts: 1249
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Quote:
That would be the truth.
Says TT.

OK, Ellis, here is what I propose: In the spirit of peace, let us nominate that TT be the arbiter of "truth".

What do you say?, Ellis. Feel free to disagree with me, OK?



How about we let the voice of experience in Truth absolute, be the guide to Truth Absolute, regardless of who it is.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28277 - 11/10/08 12:48 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Ellis Offline
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Rev said;
OK, Ellis, here is what I propose: In the spirit of peace, let us nominate that TT be the arbiter of "truth".

Ah--but whose truth would it be? It is necessary to BELIEVE in the truth absolute, so that's a problem right there. We all know that I don't believe in anything vaguely supernatural and the idea of all-enveloping truth has a very fuzzy edge I think.

So here's an idea---- TT can believe in his idea of truth, (ie the Absolute). Rev you can believe in your idea of truth ( probably based on the teaching of Christ) and I'll trust in my version (which is that ultimately we humans are capable of finding truth without god etc, we just take a longer time to get there because we are doing it for ourselves).

Problem solved! ---or maybe not___we three will never agree!! But at least we can remain mostly civil.


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#28279 - 11/10/08 03:33 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Ellis]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis

we three will never agree!!

Free will is not an agreement, and never is a long time...
Originally Posted By: Ellis

But at least we can remain mostly civil.
Once again we are at odds in the belief and definition of civility if there is no standard absolute for humanity to aspire to. Evolution of intellect will be the underlying melody of universal law.
As long as the ego is leading the band, expect diversity and independence.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28281 - 11/10/08 03:44 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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OK, Ellis, GOD is Being, the NOW as is, not a being!!!

Now, let me see you deny the NOW, or Being as is. laugh laugh

BTW, I don't think of myself as a Christian absolutist. I like your idea of truth as that which comes from within the human spirit and that it is possible to agree to disagree, agreeably.


Edited by Revlgking (11/10/08 03:53 AM)

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#28282 - 11/10/08 04:33 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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TT- If ego is what makes for diversity and indepenedence, then I'm all for it.

Rev- Back off. I have no idea what you mean! Unless you mean something along the lines of god itself is the NOW. Which of course I do deny!


Edited by Ellis (11/10/08 04:33 AM)
Edit Reason: left out a word

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#28287 - 11/10/08 06:53 AM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Ellis]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
TT- If ego is what makes for diversity and indepenedence, then I'm all for it.

For ego, independence is separation, and diversity is Chaos.

Unity without ego and its independence is diversity of expression of the One. Unity of ego is everyone believing and thinking the same thing.

Being in the Now is being conscious or cognizant of the One universal mind acting in all things. Objectivity without boundaries of belief. Mind stilled and awareness aware of itself.

It has nothing to do with being self absorbed in the present delusion or belief and opinion of experience.
It's the ability to stand in everyone"s shoes at the same time consciously all the time.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#28289 - 11/10/08 02:59 PM Re: Can We, "Overcome EVIL by GOOD." Rom. 12:21, [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
Rev- Back off.
Ellis, now it is my turn to ask you: What do you mean when you ask me to back off? Did my comment--verbal "jab"--cause you to feel a negative emotion?

I do apologize if my comment did make you feel I was offering a personal attack. I had no such intention. I should have posed my comment in the form of a question to all atheists:

What proof do atheists have that the Now (existence as is)--space/time, Being--is finite and limited?
BTW, I agree with Tolle that all emotions, including happy and sad ones, arise from the ego. I also acknowledge I have not as yet mastered handling all my emotions; but I am working on it.



Edited by Revlgking (11/10/08 03:05 PM)

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