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#28119 - 10/22/08 07:23 PM Humans... IMMORTAL??
Brilliance Offline
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Registered: 10/19/08
Posts: 10
Children cry--- youth cool--- adult eek--- OLD frown .

Could you imagine if we could stop growing old!! as a matter of fact stop our age itself... stay as a youth... forever??? sounds like a fairytale... perhaps tuck everlasting... very amusing story... but this concept is not much of a fantasy... as a matter of fact it is quite possible that we could become… immortal.

God has given us the gift of brilliance... we use it to acquire knowledge, then i say... shouldn’t it be possible that god may have always wanted us to learn and know how we could be immortal.

Every human cell has a biological clock... every time our cells undergo multiplication (mitosis) a part of our DNA strand is cleaved (destroyed) during DNA multiplication. The mechanism of DNA coding or DNA multiplication is not quite perfect... therefore errors occur while duplicating the DNA strands for new cells… leading to cancerous cellsmad.

The mechanism that enables useful DNA not to be destroyed is ... well simply cleavage of useless DNA attached at the very end of our long DNA strands... This bit of useless DNA is called Telomeres. Before we are born, a full set of telomeres are attached at the very end of our DNA strands in every cell… and as we grow older this set of useless DNA is cleaved and eventually wears out leading for the useful DNA to be cleaved and eventually causing cell death or cancerous cells.

Cells telomeres worning out causes cells to function immproperly, get weaker... get older and die... therefore leading to old age and deseases.

In some rare cells as soon as the telomere is cleaved it is replenished by an enzyme produced in the cell. This Very important enzyme is called telomerase. This does not happen in any normal cell except in male sex cells (sperm cells), many types of cancerous cells… and in some exceptional animal cells…. I am not sure but I believe there r some stem cells that also contain the ability to produce telomerase. These cells are considered to be immortal.

Imagine what if we could engineer human cells to be able to produce telomerase on its own or even introduce it into the normal cells by surgical procedures... Our worn out telomeres would replenish and we wud live longer lives.

I am not quite sure about any on going research on this topic but i bileave temerase is used in some very few age defying creams. Wouldn’t it be nice to live if not forever at least a bit longer life healthy and young. smile

Plz feel free to Criticize my ideas or support my ideas... or do both!!! laugh plz share your opinion! thanx

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#28146 - 10/24/08 06:45 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Brilliance]
Mike Kremer Offline

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Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK

I suppose one day Scientists WILL be able to lengthen our lives

Presumably by activating DNA to lengthen the Toleremase at the ends of our cells. I believe that this will be possible,
and give us a longer life?
True immortality is a whole different ball game, and very dependant upon the continuing flexibility of our muscle, skin and arterys.etc

Three items of Thought here.
Do longer lived peoples have longer telomerase attached to their Cells? (Any studies on that?)

Male Sperm is produced as long as a man lives, Those specialized cells dont die, they continually produce Sperm from blood (I believe?) and they have NO telomeres attached to them. (Figure that one out) Since normal cells that have USED up their telomerase, either dont reproduce correctly and die (or turn Cancerous.)


Cancer Cells are 100% immortal, They can be cultured in a petri dish and NEVER die. Continually reproduce themslves.
Some Hospitals hold cancer Cells that have been alive for over 50 years. Cancer cells probably hold the key to immortality?
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#28148 - 10/24/08 08:09 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Mike Kremer]
Mike Kremer Offline

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Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

I suppose one day Scientists WILL be able to lengthen our lives


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

ADDITION
And those people who tend to believe in Fantasy?
Its in the same ilk as "Life after Death"
Not that I blame anyone for believing that life might be extended
Was'nt it Ponce-de-Lyon who searched the Americas for the Fountain of Youth? Or is that a fairy tale.
Anyway here is a whole wad of Immortality URl's here.

http://www.supercentenarian.com/archive/sens.html





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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#28149 - 10/24/08 08:10 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Mike Kremer]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Brilliance- I am going to pick up on something you stated- "God has gven us the gift of brilliance". He, She or It has, by this reasoning, given us also a finite life, possibly as a result of the interactions outlined in Mike's post. Would such extension of life to immortality be contrary to God's will? Also what would happen to the promise of heaven and the afterlife, or would we in fact continue to live on Earth in our bodily state getting older- but immortal? That's heaven?

Personally I feel this post belongs in NQS.

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#28154 - 10/25/08 02:25 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Ellis: "Personally I feel this post belongs in NQS"

This thread is one of those that are particularly susceptible to NQS content, so we may have to tolerate a little fantasy and metaphysics. Longevity, however, is now being widely researched, so it ought to be a worthy addition to the General Science Forum.

These two related articles are the most interesting I've read on the subject:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24279207-30417,00.html

"They discovered that most of the long-lived men - those who eventually reached an average age of 98 years - had the same version of the FOXO3A gene.

What's more, the men with the long-lived version of the gene also had a lower prevalence of cancer and cardiovascular disease, high physical and intellectual abilities and reported better over-all health than those without the variation."

http://ouroboros.wordpress.com/2008/09/15/foxo3a-allele-linked-to-longevity/

"The authors state that this finding is especially exciting because the FOXO family of proteins are closely related to the C. elegans protein, DAF-16, which has been shown to protect cells from oxidative stress, which could be a 'plausible mechanism of action for modification of human aging.'"
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#28156 - 10/25/08 04:18 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Longgevity yes- immortality no, that's NQS.

I have a very personal interest in longevity, my mother is approaching 96. Still has darkish hair and her own teeth!! Most of her family (especially the females) lived to at least the late 80s, and one of my aunts made it to 101, so I have no difficulty assuming that there is a genetic component to living longer than normal, and that should probably give some sort of protection against cancer and heart disease, as thay are the greatest killer diseases... however that is NOT immortality.

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#28158 - 10/25/08 09:00 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Ellis: "I have no difficulty assuming that there is a genetic component to living longer than normal, and that should probably give some sort of protection against cancer and heart disease, as thay are the greatest killer diseases"

- Of course, since recent research findings support that. We surely can't be seriously discussing immortality, despite a thread title that's proven to be provocative.
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#28165 - 10/26/08 12:34 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: redewenur]
Brilliance Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/08
Posts: 10
First of all thanx everyone for sharing ur ideas!

Mike -
You see increment of telomerase just doesn’t extend the life of the cell but also prevents the cell form getting old and damaging its DNA ( Coding/ functioning DNA)

Mike Regarding ur thoughts…
“Do longer lived peoples have longer telomerase attached to their Cells? (Any studies on that?)”
My answer to that is there r ongoing researches and yes it is possible …
As a matter of fact this is due to the aspect of genetic variability… different people have different lengths of telomerase. Of course it is also possible that different factors may effect the individuals life lengths… for example:
- Their healthy life style may give them a longer life contrary to the fact that they might have small telomerase.
- Their might also be the genetic effect of the cell health giving them yet again an advantage of having a longer life irrelevant to the size of their telomere caps.

Your second thought/ question….
” Male Sperm is produced as long as a man lives, Those specialized cells don’t die, they continually produce Sperm from blood (I believe?) and they have NO telomeres attached to them. (Figure that one out)”
- I don’t think sperm is produced from the blood… it might supply important nutrients to the production, but does not produce the sperms… The germ cells that are responsible to produce the sperms are spermatogonium which are the diploid cells that produce spermatocytes that go under meiosis I then change into spermatid that goes under meiosis II and finally become sperms…
- What I believe is that the sperms do not have the telomeres but either the spermatogonium is the germ cell that is able to produce telomerase and replenish its telomere cap or the stem cells that produce spermatogonium cells do… either way this is the immortality aspect of sperm cell production.

Your third question…
“Some Hospitals hold cancer Cells that have been alive for over 50 years. Cancer cells probably hold the key to immortality?’
This again refers to my point of discussion… you see cancer cells are immortal due to the fact that they also are able to produce telomerase and replenish telomeres therefore are immortal… the topic of immortality with telomeres was originally aroused from the fact of cancer cells being immortal due to replenishing telomere caps.

Mike, people do not believe in fantasy to be the truth… unless they r bajingo from the head… but curious minds tend to search the truth even if truth bears an incredible resemblance to fantasy.

Also the the URl u produced regarding Dr. Aubrey de Grey’s five bars to
immortality is simply an example of getting to a destination through different routes!!!

Ellis -
”Brilliance- I am going to pick up on something you stated- "God has gven us the gift of brilliance". He, She or It has, by this reasoning, given us also a finite life, possibly as a result of the interactions outlined in Mike's post. Would such extension of life to immortality be contrary to God's will? Also what would happen to the promise of heaven and the afterlife, or would we in fact continue to live on Earth in our bodily state getting older- but immortal? That's heaven?”

Well Ellis first of all if god does not want to be contradicted... then not in the whole universe it is possible to contradict his, her or its will. After all he is the all mighty and powerful. But the question is if some one or something or a mere human has been able to contradict his word then ellis… doesn’t that mean god itself wanted to be contradicted… or is he not strong enough to stop someone from contradicting his will? NO OFFENCE TO ANY ONE. I do not believe that immortality of human is contradictory of gods will. God may have given us a limited life but he has never FORBIDDEN us to increase the life he has given us… even to the point of being immortal. Your question regarding the afterlife… well the end of the universe is inevitable… proven by religion and science… The whole universe is going to be destroyed! This theory of immortality in our discussion gives us the fact that we can live longer and longer but we will not be invincible! We could get killed by a global or universal catastrophe.
- And according to this theory… not completely sure about it… but theoretically regarding this theory I would expect an immortal life in form of `eternal youth` not getting old and old and old and old and old. The term ‘eternal youth’ in this context represents the time frame till the end of the universe. The term ‘eternal youth’ in this context represents the time frame till the end of universe.

Ellis - “Personally I feel this post belongs in NQS”
Redewenur – “Of course, since recent research findings support that. We surely can't be seriously discussing immortality, despite a thread title that's proven to be provocative.”
- If we are to completely understand the universe and use the tool of science to its fullest function and enhance our knowledge… then we must not create boundaries around any one aspect… everything is connected in the universe… science to science fiction to reality to psychology to history to astrophysics to rocket sciences to NQS… (including the gremlins and gizmo!! ) lol

Redewenur - ”Of course, since recent research findings support that. We surely can't be seriously discussing immortality, despite a thread title that's proven to be provocative.”
- Isn’t the concept of immortality (in this particular discussion … theoretical results of the telomere theory) rooted from the very research of genetic components that effect longevity of life frames??

As redewenur suggested the ongoing research on specific gene codons that enable the longevity of human life suggest the theoretical possibility of increasing the life frame of an average human, with extra benefits from the research of immunity against terrible diseases. As I earlier mentioned it’s simply like having one destination but taking different routes.

- I AM AFRAID YOU HAVE MISUNDERSTOOD MY IDEAS… THE TERM IMMORTALITY WAS SIMPLY A TERM USED TO THEORETICALLY EXPLAIN THE LIMITS OF THE LONGEVITY OF HUMAN LIFE THAT COULD BE ACHIEVED FROM THIS RESEARCH. THE TERM IMMORTALITY IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A CONCEPT OF FICTION IN THIS RESEARCH/TOPIC/DISCUSSION BUT A PURE CONCEPT OF THEORETICAL ANALYSIS. IT IS NOT FICTION… IT IS SCIENCE!!!

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#28168 - 10/26/08 08:55 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Brilliance]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Brilliance- I personally do not believe in god so I do not believe that my IQ is divinely ordained, but you attributed intelligence to the work of an Almighty, so I took your statement to its logical conclusion. An absurd conclusion I admit, but your assumuption of divinity in the planned origin of human intelligence lends itself to such conclusions. That is why this subject, as it is presently framed is more suited to NQS, where everyone, including me, enjoys debating the truth of your first assumption, and discussions are thus really not-quite-science.

PS- Immortality means to live for ever, not just for a longish time in one research project.

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#28171 - 10/26/08 03:58 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Yes, Ellis. Point taken. The topic has become burdened with NQS, so NQS it is smile
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"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#28173 - 10/27/08 02:33 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Sorry rede! but I think that it is important to define terms with accuracy. It would not have been possible to argue as I did if the terms had been less loose. The science regarding telomorases could certainly make for further interesting scientific discussion.

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#28175 - 10/27/08 06:09 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Ellis]
Brilliance Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/08
Posts: 10

First of all the introduction of gods will and other aspects of religion was I believe introduced by …you ellis (ironic!!)... in response to a statement in my very first post which clearly had nothing to relate with the actual topic of the discussion. The statement I made was simply a mere perspective of one that would believe in god. I am afraid that you do not understand the actual topic of this discussion. The actual topic… again I mention… is the research of a genetic component that may result in human longevity, NOT GODS WILL AND CONTROLL OVER US!! (For the sake of scientific argument I must eliminate the term ‘immortal’ since you clearly do not understand what I am referring to). I would again like to say immortality is indeed a term rooted from fiction but relative to a scientific research every component of fiction is potential reality. NOT FICTION… SCIENCE!!!

And finally if you all believe that this topic is more suitable for NQS, then I suppose i could only say that... unfortunately none of you share the same sight of the future as I do...

Even meteor showers were once considered NOT QUITE SCIENCE!!!




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#28176 - 10/27/08 10:25 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Brilliance]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
A quote from the first post introducing this topic by Brilliance:

God has given us the gift of brilliance... we use it to acquire knowledge, then i say... shouldn’t it be possible that god may have always wanted us to learn and know how we could be immortal.

A quote from Brilliance in his/her latest post:

First of all the introduction of gods will and other aspects of religion was I believe introduced by …you ellis (ironic!!)... in response to a statement in my very first post which clearly had nothing to relate with the actual topic of the discussion.

The latter quote is obviously incorrect. The god reference was introduced by Brilliance in his/her second paragraph.

I merely suggested that you seemed to suggest god that was involved in the search for immortality, when clearly under your line of reasoning as introduced by you, god has included the necessity for finality in all our lives. Seems reasonable to me. Also doesn't seem like science as who knows what god thinks. Certainly I don't. That's why this topic is in NQS.

Brilliance, you will often find that people do not share your vision. It does not mean either side is wrong--just different.

I will also reiterate (without shouting) that immortality has a definite meaning. It means to live forever not for a very long time.

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#28177 - 10/27/08 10:39 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Brilliance]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Brilliance--Or should that be, like TT, genius? smile --I have been interested in questions regarding mortality, and immortality, since childhood. As a child, I experienced the deaths of several close family members, including my parents. During WW 2 I also saw, close up, many people die. You say that
Quote:
God has given us...
Brilliance, because I am not an atheist, like Ellis is, I would like to ask: Would you help us meet this "God" you say "who gives us" ...

The following is a serious question: May we count on you to introduce us? I am truly curious, and open-minded.


Edited by Revlgking (10/28/08 03:59 AM)
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#28178 - 10/28/08 03:08 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Brilliance--Or should that be, like TT, genius?--

Giving egoic immortality to the slanderous and sarcastic approach to a poster Rev.? Nice... wink
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#28179 - 10/28/08 03:40 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
TT, slander applies only to what is spoken. And when is asking a question considered slander?
BTW, I am always glad to apologize when people who have tender egoic feelings let me know.


Edited by Revlgking (10/28/08 03:52 AM)

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#28180 - 10/28/08 04:07 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
TT, slander applies only to what is spoken. And when is asking a question considered slander?
BTW, I am always glad to apologize when people who have tender egoic feelings let me know.
The slander was within what was spoken. Was the reference to Brilliance and genius really necessary?
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#28181 - 10/28/08 04:21 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
If anyone finds my joking offensive, I apologize.

BTW, what do we mean when we speak of immortality? Is there really such a thing as mortality?

I find it difficult to conceive that there is such a thing. Evolution, yes. Change, yes. Even destruction and re-construction; but not zero.


Edited by Revlgking (10/28/08 04:34 AM)

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#28184 - 10/28/08 08:27 PM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Revlgking]
Brilliance Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 10/19/08
Posts: 10
Revlgking... look around u... carefully!! Dont u c god evrywere u turn around... in every single thing you lay ur eyes upon...I do... you should read my posts more carefully if you dont understand what i am talking about. Oh and now tat u have apologized... plz do not repeat the sme mistake again.

Might i suggest to everyone... instead of taking evrything seriously... instead of looking for a philosophical interpretation in everything... y dont u all c things for wat they simply appear to be.
Immortality means living forever. bieng mortal means to live... a limited life. in this context i am simply refering immortality to a scientific research that may result in prolonged human longevity.

Ellis, you cleverly post my words and proved your point but either you didnt read my previous post clearly... or you purposely failed to miss my point.....
"First of all the introduction of gods will and other aspects of religion was I believe introduced by …you ellis (ironic!!)... in response to a statement in my very first post..."God has given us the gift of brilliance... we use it to acquire knowledge, then i say... shouldn’t it be possible that god may have always wanted us to learn and know how we could be immortal."...which clearly had nothing to relate with the actual topic of the discussion. THE STATEMENT I MADE WAS SIMPLY A MERE PERSPECTIVE OF ONE THAT WOULD BELIEVE IN GOD."

Ellis - "Brilliance- I am going to pick up on something you stated- "God has gven us the gift of brilliance". He, She or It has, by this reasoning, given us also a finite life, possibly as a result of the interactions outlined in Mike's post. Would such extension of life to immortality be contrary to God's will? Also what would happen to the promise of heaven and the afterlife, or would we in fact continue to live on Earth in our bodily state getting older- but immortal? That's heaven? "

As i earlier mentioned it wasnt me who introduced the concept of gods will and other aspects of religion... eventhough they were questions...it was you, ellis, who established this concept.

ellis - 'Brilliance, you will often find that people do not share your vision. It does not mean either side is wrong--just different.'
I suppose you r rite and i absolutely agree... i never said if anyone was wrong or right!!!

Ellis - 'I will also reiterate (WITHOUT SHOUTING) that immortality has a definite meaning. It means to live forever not for a very long time'
Would you please define the theoretical period of 'a very long time' in this context because i dont really c a difference in tat and the term immortality... in this topic afcourse.

Oh and i never shout... I SIMPLY EMPHASIZE MY WORDS!!


Edited by Brilliance (10/28/08 08:30 PM)

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#28186 - 10/29/08 01:36 AM Re: Humans... IMMORTAL?? [Re: Brilliance]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

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Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Brill,
Enough SHOUTING OR EMPHASIZING. Let's keep the discussion civil, shall we?


Edited by Amaranth Rose II (10/29/08 01:38 AM)
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