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#27089 - 07/13/08 02:15 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: samwik]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
If you can control the masses why do you need money? If you can obtain everything you want and need thru politics money is useless, except for the control factor.
Money useless? Have you thought this through, Odin1? I am sure you realize you contradict yourself, right? Please, take the time to read what Hazel Henderson writes.

Anyone who finds money useless, please send all you have my way. I will cover all delivery costs. Here is how to do it:

Go to http://www.e-gold.com/
For free, you can open an account. (I have an account. Then for a very small fee you can money to anyone with an e-gold account. In my opinion, if every one opened and used an e-gold account the banks would have no more power.



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#27090 - 07/13/08 03:14 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tutor Turtle]
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: me
So what constitutes real power (when monery loses...)?
Guns?
Food/Water?
...a good combination of the two?

...or maybe the information about those resources?

Originally Posted By: Tutor Turtle
Conscious awareness. The ability to rise above fear and manipulation.

Originally Posted By: me
So maybe, really valid information, and a network to support and utilize it?

.
.
.
I was just listening to BookTV... and thinking about food and information....

http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9566&SectionName=After%20Words&PlayMedia=No
This week from BookExpo America in Los Angeles, Raj Patel explores the global food system and what he contends are its insufficiencies in “Stuffed and Starved: The Hidden Battle for the World Food System.” Mr. Patel details how food is produced, marketed and sold and reports that currently more people are starving and more are overweight than at any other time in history. Raj Patel discusses his book with Evan Kleiman, host of the radio program “Good Food” that is heard on Southern California NPR affiliate KCRW.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raj_Patel
Raj Patel is an academic, journalist, activist and writer.[1] He is the author, most recently, of Stuffed & Starved, a critically acclaimed book about why the world experiences both obesity and hunger.

As part of his academic training, Patel worked at the World Bank, World Trade Organization and the United Nations. He has since become an outspoken and noted critic of all of these organizations, and has been teargassed on four continents protesting against his former employers. Patel was one of many organizers in the 1999 protests in downtown Seattle, WA, and has organized in support of Food sovereignty. More recently he has lived and worked extensively in Zimbabwe and in South Africa. He was refused a visa extension by the the Mugabe regime for his political involvement with the pro-democracy movement. He is associated through his work on food with the Via Campesina movement, and through his work on urban poverty and resistance with Abahlali baseMjondolo. He has written a number of influential criticisms of various aspects of the policies and research methods of the World Bank and was a co-editor, with Christopher Brooke, of the online leftist webzine The Voice of the Turtle

!! smile Any relation...? wink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_sovereignty
"Food sovereignty" is a term originally coined by members of Via Campesina in 1996 [1] to refer to a policy framework advocated by a number of farmers', peasants', pastoralists', fisherfolk, Indigenous Peoples', womens', rural youth and environmental organizations, namely the claimed "right of peoples to define their own food, agriculture, livestock and fisheries systems," in contrast to having food largely subject to international market forces.

Food sovereignty is increasingly being promoted as an alternative framework to the narrower concept of food security, which mostly focuses on the technical problem of providing adequate nutrition. For instance, a food security agenda that simply provides surplus grain to hungry people would probably be strongly criticised by food sovereignty advocates as just another form of commodity dumping, facilitating corporate penetration of foreign markets, undermining local food production, and possibly leading to irreversible biotech contamination of indigenous crops with patented varieties. U.S. taxpayer subsidized exports of Bt corn to Mexico since the passage of NAFTA is a case in point.
===

...and thanks for the e-gold link, Revl. I'll look at that later....

~ smile

_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#27093 - 07/13/08 05:29 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: samwik]
Ellis Offline
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Doesn't power come from having the ability to manipulate people/governments? Presently we are seeing the growth of global companies whose policies are more powerful than those of governments. In their search for control of the world's economies money becomes merely the medium chosen to express the extent of their influence and power by manipulation of, not only individuals, but also governments.

Under conditions of inflation money has little power, and the power swings to those who have either the goods, or the means to obtain them. This used to mean corrupt governments could seize land and other resources, causing local hardship. But now we also have new players in the form of global companies who can force production costs down and prices up- world-wide. There are always winners in every price rise, even the rises that cause starvation, death and suffering. Indeed, there are those who feel that such greed may one day even cost us our planet.

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#27094 - 07/13/08 06:30 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
samwik Offline
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Wow! Well put....

I saw Ron Paul (populist libertarianish/Republican maverick in US Politics) on BookTV talking about how fascism (govt. enforced corporatocracy?) is an increasing threat to democracies.

Will Multinationals (the corporations) supplant Nation States? . . . . Have they already?

Maybe if we just ignore them, they'll go away....

~ confused
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#27097 - 07/13/08 09:03 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: samwik]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yeah...Idon'tthinkso

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#27100 - 07/14/08 01:28 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Anonymous]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Yeah...I don't think so
Anon, come out from behind your mask and tell us what you mean.

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#27108 - 07/14/08 06:35 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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I'd say it means they won't go away if we just ignore them..
Basically it can't be ignored if it affects our lives and the way we choose to be involved or uninvolved.

Quote:
Will Multinationals (the corporations) supplant Nation States? . . . . Have they already?

Not yet but it is very possible that a one world Govt. could emerge from the idea of the United Nations. Within each gov.t there exists very large corporations that make up what we call special interests. They feed large amounts of money through channels to bend interest to support their needs and agendas.
In a one world govt. this is also possible.
The U.S. has a provision to prevent monopolies in industry but lets face it, if the big guy on the block controls the lawmakers and the flow of money, the degradation of preventative measures is more than likely.
Even now the U.S. is moving toward lifting the ban on Offshore and wilderness drilling for oil when it is not the supply of oil that is driving the cost of gasoline up.
Anyone see the movie wag the dog?


Edited by Tutor Turtle (07/14/08 06:44 PM)
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#27110 - 07/14/08 08:00 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tutor Turtle]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
TT, you have raised some very important issues. Thank you!

IMHO, as we look at these issues, the first thing we must resolve to do is never to given in to fear, despair, and cynicism. We need to believe there are solutions.

Next, it seems to me, what we the people need to do is some serious thinking about the best way to go about handling these challenges. Then we need to take action and search for the best solutions we can find to our political, social and economic problems, locally and globally.

Any thoughts?


Edited by Revlgking (07/14/08 08:06 PM)

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#27111 - 07/14/08 09:55 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Next, it seems to me, what we the people need to do is some serious thinking about the best way to go about handling these challenges. Then we need to take action and search for the best solutions we can find to our political, social and economic problems, locally and globally.

Any thoughts?


I've just been struck by the realization that all emergent systems have a lot of commonalities.
Life, economics, climate, etc.:
All evolve, are constrained by simple laws or rules, are vulnerable to invasion, adapt in various ways, are composed of a population of species (each of which is also an emergent system?).

re: last parenthetical remark:
It's sort of a fractal composition; with emergent systems combining to create new levels of emergent systems, and systems from those new levels combining to create newer levels of emergent systems, ad infinitum.

In this way, Sovereign Wealth Funds and Massive Hedge Funds can be seen as new, invasive species in the economic niche of markets.

googled: "characteristics of emergent systems"

0-0
http://web.pdx.edu/~rueterj/courses/sustainability_emergent.htm
What if sustainability is an emergent property?
What if we were to view sustainable societies and economies as emergent systems; how would this change our understanding of our goals and the transitional path or paths?

0-0
Managing Multimedia Semantics - Google Books Resultby Uma Srinivasan, Surya Nepal - 2005 - Multimedia systems - 409 pages
Several characteristics of emergent systems are demonstrated in the ant colony metaphor:
interaction, synthesis and self-organization. ...
books.google.com/books?isbn=1591405696...

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http://209.85.141.104/search?q=cache:vxv2S88QNTEJ:centerforcongregations.org/files/folders/600/download.aspx+%22characteristics+of+emergent+systems%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us
THE EMERGENT CHURCH
Characteristics of emergent systems
by Kester Brewin

Open–change from within triggered by the environment
Adaptable–radical reliance on our local communities to survive
Learning–sensing what is going on around it and processing this information intelligently to make changes
Distributed knowledge–not top down, centralized knowledge and power
Servant leadership–complexity theory provides us with a model of leadership that has very little power

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https://dspace.lib.cranfield.ac.uk/bitstream/1826/847/2/Linda%20Hadfield%20PhD%20Thesis%201997.pdf
EMERGENT TECHNO-ENVIRONMENTAL PHENOMENACRANFIELD UNIVERSITY by Linda Hadfield PhD THESIS: 1992-1997

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http://www.it.rit.edu/~ell/737/737-032/archives/introductions.php
Web Design and Technologies (4004-737) ....BLOG

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http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/sci_edu/emergentpedagogy.html
Emergent Pedagogy:
Learning to Enjoy the Uncontrollable and Make it Productive: A Conversation in (and on) Process
Among Doug Blank (Computer Science), Kim Cassidy (Pyschology), Anne Dalke (English, Feminist and Gender Studies), Paul Grobstein (Biology, Center for Science in Society) (Bryn Mawr College) and K-12 Teachers in the Philadelphia Public School System.

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http://www.neuroquantology.com/JOURNAL/index.php/nq/article/view/51/49
Emergence and Organization Towards a Taxonomy of Organizing Relations
by Stephen Jones

NeuroQuantology 2004 |Issue 3|Page 219-236
Abstract
There are effectively two classes of explanations for how we come to be conscious, particularly in the sense of having a "mental world" or apprehending and comprehending phenomenal experience of both the material world in which we are present, and the worlds of our imagination. These, of course, are the physicalistic explanations in which consciousness somehow is a product of the brain's activity in the physical world, and the mentalistic (usually dualist) explanations in which some non-physical "stuff" carries our mental worlds and phenomenal experiences. Ultimately, even if the mental stuff hypothesis is proven to be the case, we will still have to produce an explanation for how there can be a causally efficacious connection between that mental stuff and the physical world.

0-0

Wow, there's a journal I've never heard of before!
0-0

But adaptive management of systems needs to be factored in... and this other stuff too, can/should all be applied to economics.
...or words to that effect. Sorry, ...rushed.

smile ~samwik

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#27114 - 07/15/08 01:22 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Anonymous]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
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As an example of the influence of distant and possibly undesirable local results resulting from distant and unacknowledged instigators I read about this situation in the weekend's newspaper (about page 20!)

New Guinea is a developing country, parts of the highlands are still unexplored I think. As result of the usual global companies' involvement, New Guinea has been rapidly harvesting their rain forests the quickest way possible, obliteration. This would be bad enough, as the hinterland of New Guinea is very mountainous, and prone to land slips when the forests are cleared and the villagers were subsistence farmers with a garden/marketing system now disappearing fast. But instead of the cleared land used for food crops or even left to regenerate, it is used for growing palm oil for 'us' to use in our cars as we assuage our consciences in our desire desire to grow 'greener'. The wealth of the forests, properly managed, could have been an investment for the inhabitants, but that money has now gone off-shore.

It's all very well talking about solutions in a rich democratic society where the politicians are obliged to respond to our wishes-- but life is bleak when you live in a place where your voice is not heard, you are powerless and uneducated and, more than anything else, you are hungry. That's when you sell your birthright.

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#27129 - 07/15/08 06:32 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
As I understand it: university courses, on economics, are based on the assumption that planet earth is a place of scarce supply, especially now that more and more people, born in poverty, are beginning to demand their just share.

I once heard a comedian say: Consumer economics is when advertisers convince us to buy more and more things, which we do not really need, with money we do not really have, to impress people we do not really like. smile

Here are a couple of the more-formal definitions, first:
Quote:
Economics is the social science that studies the production, distribution, and consumption of goods and services. The term economics comes from the Greek for oikos (house) and nomos (custom or law), hence "rules of the house(hold)." [BTW, English versions of the New Testament translate the Greek 'oikonomos' as 'stewardship'. Much of the Bible is about economics.]

Modern economics developed out of the broader field of political economy in the late 19th century, owing to a desire to use an empirical approach more akin to the physical sciences. A definition that captures much of modern economics is that of Lionel Robbins in a 1932 essay: "the science which studies human behaviour as a relationship between ends and scarce means which have alternative uses."

Scarcity means that available resources are insufficient to satisfy all wants and needs. Absent scarcity and alternative uses of available resources, there is no economic problem. The subject thus defined involves the study of choices as they are affected by incentives and resources.
Second:
Quote:
The study of how the forces of supply and demand allocate scarce resources. Subdivided into microeconomics, which examines the behavior of firms, consumers and the role of government; and macroeconomics, which looks at inflation, unemployment, industrial production, and the role of government.

GOD AND ECONOMICS
The abundant life, or supply, is already there. We will get it when we open the gates and get rid of our resistance factor. For those who make no resistance to GOD--that is, to that which is all goodness, order and desirable design (beautiful)--there is no lack of supply--physically, mentally and spiritually. All we need is available. Note that I said 'need'. Wants, usually accompanied by avarice or greed, are something else.

Whenever I lack any physical, mental or spiritual supply, or gifts, without blaming myself, anyone else, or even circumstances, I accept personal responsibility for what is.

I do not ask, or petition, a god, out or up there, to do this or that for me. As part of my regular contemplation/meditation, I simply tune into, or connect with--which, by the way, best translates the semitic word 'slaha' which we, mistakenly translate as 'prayer' (asking for something).--and use the laws of intention, and attraction. Then I ask (often silently): What knowledge, wisdom and imagination--grounded in sighted faith, a lively hope and spiritual love--do I need, here, to open the gates of abundance wider than they already are? Then I affirm: I will be lead to the things I need to know, to the people I need and who need me, the things that we all need to do and the power to take action.

So far, I have received amazing and positive results and the supplies I need. This often comes from strangers and sources completely new to me.

Do I always get what I want? NO!

But later, I usually find that what I wanted wasn't the wisest and best thing to have, anyway.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#27130 - 07/15/08 09:09 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Wow! Front page news, eh?
Originally Posted By: Ellis
As an example of the influence of distant and possibly undesirable local results resulting from distant and unacknowledged instigators I read about this situation in the weekend's newspaper (about page 20!)
New Guinea is a developing country,...harvesting their rain forests the quickest way possible, obliteration. This would be bad enough, as the hinterland of New Guinea is very mountainous, and prone to land slips when the forests are cleared and the villagers were subsistence farmers with a garden/marketing system now disappearing fast. But instead of the cleared land used for food crops or even left to regenerate, it is used for growing palm oil for 'us' to use in our cars as we assuage our consciences in our desire desire to grow 'greener'. The wealth of the forests, properly managed, could have been an investment for the inhabitants, but that money has now gone off-shore.
It's all very well talking about solutions in a rich democratic society where the politicians are obliged to respond to our wishes-- but life is bleak when you live in a place where your voice is not heard, you are powerless and uneducated and, more than anything else, you are hungry. That's when you sell your birthright.


Revl.
Certainly there does seem to be a nexus between religion and economics. This struck me recently as I read about Stuart Kauffman's discussion on "The Global Ethic." [coming soon...]
http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=26073#Post26073
===

Ellis,
Certainly you have a good example here of "Free-Enterprise" at it's finest. Doubtless the political niche encouraging biofuels is complicit, but does no one 'in power' have anything but short-sighted goals in mind?
Who couldn't anticipate these kinds of abuses?

Economic restructuring that would promote third-world sustainable agriculture, combined with first-world connectivity (with knowledge, education, data and studies flowing freely)[Ellis, re: your comment above], could through adaptive management practices, lift the third-world up to the level of the first while simultaneously fulfilling all of the Millennium Development Goals.

http://www.un.org/millenniumgoals/goals.html

Develop a global partnership for development

Eradicate extreme poverty and hunger

Achieve universal primary education

Promote gender equality and empower women

Reduce child mortality

Improve maternal health

Combat HIV/AIDS, malaria, and other diseases

&
Ensure environmental sustainability

>Integrate the principles of sustainable development into country policies and programmes; reverse loss of environmental resources.
>Reduce biodiversity loss, achieving by 2010, a significant reduction in the rate of loss. Oh well, one off....
>Halve, by 2015, the proportion of people without sustainable access to safe drinking water and basic sanitation.
>By 2020, to have achieved a significant improvement in the lives of at least 100 million slum-dwellers.

How are we going to do this unless we do this?
wink
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#27133 - 07/16/08 12:46 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: samwik]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
In my opinion we have the global resources but we lack even the local will. For instance here in Australia some of our original inhabitants are clustered together in shanty towns under third world conditions on the lands which were once theirs. It's wrong, we know it is, but we let it happen. Now, far too late, we are trying to do something to help.

All wealthy countries have their underclasses. For example in some countries they disenfranchise them by putting barriers in the way when they want to vote, in others they construct their society in such a way that those disadvantaged by birth cannot ever progress.

A good place to start is with universal education. It makes sense morally and socially and works regardless of the political system within a particular country.

Rereading the millennium goals makes me realise we should be able to do it. it seems so obvious! Why is it really so difficult?

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#27134 - 07/16/08 03:09 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Ellis
In my opinion we have the global resources but we lack even the local will....
Ellis, what about your personal will? This all you are responsible for,your personal will. Touch others and encourage them to do the same.

Here is my affirmation on peace and justice: Let there be peace, and justice, on earth and let it begin with me.

WE NEED A NEW DEFINITION OF WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CHARITABLE
IMO, being charitable is not giving people something for nothing. It is my responsibility to show people they I am willing to give them what I discover that they are worth to me and/or to the community.

When I chose to be prosperous, I became prosperous. The most important thing I can do for others is to encourage them to make the same choice. If I need their services, I will pay for it at an mutually agreed on rate. But I resist the temptation to give them something for nothing. Read what Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 3:10: "He who will not work, let him not eat."

Originally Posted By: Ellis
Rereading the millennium goals makes me realize we should be able to do it. It seems so obvious! Why is it really so difficult?
This may seem cruel, but IMO, the poor are poor because they simply do not will to be otherwise and prosperous. It is up to me--and I was born in very poor circumstances--to help others make the discovery that "Where there is a will, there is a way."

When I decided (willed) to be educated and prosperous, it happened.


Edited by Revlgking (07/16/08 03:33 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#27138 - 07/16/08 04:09 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
When I chose to be prosperous, I became prosperous. The most important thing I can do for others is to encourage them to make the same choice. If I need their services, I will pay for it at an mutually agreed on rate. But I resist the temptation to give them something for nothing...This may seem cruel, but IMO, the poor are poor because they simply do not will to be otherwise and prosperous. It is up to me--and I was born in very poor circumstances--to help others make the discovery that "Where there is a will, there is a way."

When I decided (willed) to be educated and prosperous, it happened.

Yes, it does seem cruel, in much the same way as karma may be interpreted as cruel. Let's remember that however poor you may have been, there were circumstances that allowed the possibility of your subsequent education and prosperity. You had the good fortune to be born with an efficient brain, and your environment offered opportunity to those able to take the bull by the horns. There are perhaps many, many millions of people around the world for whom that is not the case.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#27140 - 07/16/08 05:58 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: redewenur]
Tutor Turtle Offline
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Registered: 06/19/08
Posts: 1249
Loc: Everywhere and nowhere
Quote:
When I chose to be prosperous, I became prosperous. The most important thing I can do for others is to encourage them to make the same choice.

No, encouraging others to make the same choices you made only shows the attachment you have to what is truth and real for you, not for them.
The most important thing you could do for another is to show them they have a choice, but if you are self absorbed in your own ideas of prosperity you will not let what is important to them emerge naturally.
Not everyone wants to be Lindsay King, nor does there need to be another Lindsay King. If God had meant for there to be an earth filled with Lindsay Kings it would have happened already.

Quote:
This may seem cruel, but IMO, the poor are poor because they simply do not will to be otherwise and prosperous.
That is the image of God, freedom of choice and all that comes with it. Learning to use it is like a child learning to walk. We don't think it cruel that God has not created the child fully capable of walking do we?

Quote:
IMO, being charitable is not giving people something for nothing. It is my responsibility to show people they I am willing to give them what I discover that they are worth to me and/or to the community.

Being charitable is enabling the Self in another when one knows it in themselves. That does not necessarily translate into enabling ones own sense of identity, pride, ideals and beliefs in another.
_________________________
I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!





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#27142 - 07/16/08 10:23 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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The following is a re-wording of my comment, above, about charity
================================================================
WE NEED TO THINK LONG, HARD, DEEPLY AND THEN REALLY DIALOGUE ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE CHARITABLE.

Keep in mind: I make no claim to fully understand what this concept means, ultimately. But, IMO, it does include mercy, justice and peace for all involved.

PHILOLOGY AND ETYMOLOGY
Those who read my comments know by now that I love philology and etymology--My love of words and going back to their source.

Our word 'charity' comes from the Latin, charitas, which translates the Greek, agape--that is, spiritual-based love, the highest good.

Over the years, 'charity' has come to mean many things.

Check out:

http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=oprahs_stale_definition_of_charity
This is an interesting comment about the Oprah Winfrey Show:
Quote:
The show pushes its contestants, plopped down in unknown cities, to maniacally search for people who look needy enough for good photo ops and to satisfy the judges.

That's not generosity.

That's kind of gross and irresponsible. It's also the opposite of what's actually happening in the field of philanthropy, which is moving more and more toward sustainable change in the form of micro lending and bringing the oppressed to the decision-making tables where they can shape less oppressive policies themselves.
: what the rich and powerful give to the poor.


IMO, being charitable is not simply the giving of money to people for doing nothing--for themselves, their families or for society.
Single mothers, really willing to work to help raise their children, deserve fair wages from the community.

My role? It involves my being responsible and willing enough to take the time to show people that poverty is a state of mind originating in the human spirit. Because of my own poverty-stricken childhood, I am qualified to speak from experience.

With confidence I can tell people: When I chose to be prosperous, I became prosperous. The most important thing I can do for others is to encourage them to make the same choice.

I tell poor people--and I did this just recently--if I need your services, I will pay for it at a mutually agreed on rate. But I will resist the temptation to give you something for nothing. Read what Paul says in 2 Thessalonian s 3:10: "He who will not work, let him not eat."

Keep in mind that, in practice, I tend to be very merciful and forgiving of those who, for whatever reason, fail to measure up to my high standards.

No doubt, I will revise, and expand on, the above again, and again.


Edited by Revlgking (07/16/08 10:33 PM)
_________________________
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#27144 - 07/17/08 03:35 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Rev wrote:
My role? It involves my being responsible and willing enough to take the time to show people that poverty is a state of mind originating in the human spirit. Because of my own poverty-stricken childhood, I am qualified to speak from experience.

With confidence I can tell people: When I chose to be prosperous, I became prosperous. The most important thing I can do for others is to encourage them to make the same choice.

Rev-- I cannot believe that you wrote this. How can you compare your life in Canada to that of a child born in a tarred paper lean-to on a rubbish tip in the Philippines? You may have come from a poor family but you were born into a country with a splendid reputation for Social Welfare, good education, excellent health care, an appreciation of the law, equality of franchise etc etc. Canada is a country that can stand proud in its treatment if its citizens and you were able to use the drive and intelligence you were born with to advance yourself by using the facilities provided. Had you not done so your Govt, representing the people, would still support you. If you were disabled by accident or disease, or became unemployed you would be helped, and possibly re-trained if that was appropriate.

This situation is NOT the same for most people on this planet. Uncertainty is their everyday experience. If they become ill or unemployed they will need to beg, or die. They should not have to depend on charity. We, as the components of society, have an obligation to help people who have been less fortunate than we are. Somewhere you stated that you were an individual and thus only responsible for yourself. How can this be? Surely we,( ie society), are responsible for ensuring that anyone is able to achieve everything they are capable of, and those that can not need to be looked after too. Of course we need to help them, not because we are good people doing charity but because we are all part of the society in which we live. And each one of us is important.

Both of us live in countries that are quite wealthy enough to ensure their citizens receive free education, have free access to medical care, and financial government support in unemployment, old age, and disability. It's not a matter of luck, it's a matter of planning and intention. In our countries it would be shameful not to do it. Maybe one day everyone on the planet will be as fortunate as us.

(The above is only my own opinion.)




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#27145 - 07/17/08 04:28 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Ellis comments:
Quote:
Rev-- I cannot believe that you wrote this. How can you compare your life in Canada to that of a child born in a tarred paper lean-to on a rubbish tip in the Philippines?
Believe it or not, I actually lived in third world conditions. You go on
Quote:
...You may have come from a poor family, but you were born into a country with a splendid reputation for Social Welfare, good education, excellent health care, an appreciation of the law, equality of franchise etc etc. Canada is a country that can stand proud in its treatment of its citizens...
Are you sure you know of what you speak?

For your information, Ellis, I was not born a Canadian. I migrated to Canada, as student, in 1947. I was 17.

All I had, at the time, was about $500.00. In those days, it was enough to pay for one-half year of university. I earned it working for Dominion Iron and Steel (DOSCO). I picked rock out of iron ore--ten hours a day, six days a week. DOSCO did not give one cent to help students, no matter how bright they were.

BTW, I earned the other $500.00, I needed, while I was at university. My service in the army and the navy paid for the rest of my education. I was fortunate.

LET US NOT BE TOO HASTY
Keep in mind that Newfoundland did not become a part of Canada until 1949. Then, I was 19 and in my second year of university, in New Brunswick http://www.mta.ca We students, there, actually helped bring about Confederation with Canada. Even then, Canada, in terms of the social justice you describe, had a long way to go.

In Toronto, in 1965, as a young minister (35), I served on the picket line in Toronto, which helped bring in medicare.



Edited by Revlgking (07/17/08 04:54 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#27146 - 07/17/08 04:44 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
The most important thing you could do for another is to show them they have a choice...
I agree. TT. I apologize if I did not make this clear. Where did I go wrong?

I hope you will add your comments to mine to help make this clear: The most important thing we can do is to show people that they have choice.


Edited by Revlgking (07/17/08 04:45 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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