Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Climate Change Forum WATER FUELED CAR UNVIELED IN JAPAN

Here is where I live:
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/6+King's+Inn+Trail+Markham+(Thornhill)+ON+L3T1T7/
Thornhill (MARKHAM) is immediately north of North Toronto--like a suburb. It is a dynamic and growing area--a collection of communities, old and new, with lots of green space, so far. It even has a local airport.

Ten minutes from me, there are two major four-lane highways. One starts from the heart of Toronto--25 minutes drive from where I live--and goes north to the lakes and cities in the north of Ontario. The other is, also four-laned; it is a toll highway running east/west.

BTW, I have lived in the GTA since 1961, and have seen a lot of development. Pearson International airport is about 25 minutes to the west of where I live.

Markham population in 2006:261,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markham,_Ontario.

This car is an immediate and obvious scam. It violates thermodynamics and conservation of energy laws that people should learn in junior high. Water is not a fuel: water is the ashes left from burning a fuel. (Hydrogen and Oxygen)

If this thing operates as stated, then why not just connect its exhaust pipe back to the water input. Then it runs forever without even adding new water.

The fuel in this car is obviously a reactive metal such as lithium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, aluminum etc. Or a hydride of these metals. The metal is consumed just as fast
as gasoline would be consumed in a normal car. Even worse, these metals are produced by using huge amounts of electicity and very high temperature industrial processes. The carbon footprint of these metals is worse than gasoline or diesel.

Equivalent price per gallon of this fuel is likely more than $20 per gallon.

I guess we will just have to wait and see.

and if it does work as they say then it would violate the way we percieve laws to be , or the way we deemed they should be , so I hope they wont have them arrested.

or killed like stan meyer's was for having a car that ran only on water.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/stanmeyer.html

well as for conservation of energy this would really
be a prime candidate for conservation of energy because
the energy comes from water and obviously returns as water.

energy conserved

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Welcome Hatfield,
I also wanted "to see how this isn't perpetual motion." (post #26658)
===

I thought this was fascinating:
http://www.genepax.co.jp/mechanism/system.html
Thanks paul.

MikeK, this is an animation of page 10, from your pdf link (post #26631), of the electron flow.

I guess MEA means "membrane electrode assembly."
Their MEA has an O2 at the end of the name (I think), so maybe some sort of catalytic oxide (layered with other catalysts)?

Thanks for the fuel-cell info, Mike.

Paul comments But isn't one of the roles of science that of looking for new ways of doing things?

For centuries the geocentric model of the universe--the theory that the Earth is at the center of the universe--was held by to be true, until Copernicus, who died in 1543, challenged the old ways. A century later, his theory--published while he was on his death bed--was confirmed by Galileo. Aristotle and Ptolemy, and most Greek philosophers assumed that the Sun, Moon, stars, and naked eye planets circle the Earth. Similar ideas were held in ancient China.

In modern times: Look at the changes that had to be made to the laws of aerodynamics when scientists tackled the challenge of flying faster than sound.

With the Internet we will know soon enough what is the truth about the "water-fueled" car.

Hello all and thanks for the welcome!

I'm definitely on your side...the key to progress is open minds and imagination. But having said that, the best tool we have is the body of science as we know it. Sure, it is an on-going, evolving set of ideas. But science has a bed-rock of principles that have been so strongly proven, so thoroughly tested and re-tested, that we accept them as the reality of our observable universe.

The laws of thermodynamics, the laws of conservation of energy are the bed-rock of chemistry and physics. They are not going to be reversed or over thrown. You don't need to even know the math or the details to know these laws are running the universe.

Thermo and Conservation of energy just basically say: "A ball rolls down-hill. When it gets to the bottom of the hill it stops rolling. You must expend energy to carry it back to the top of the hill. Simple as that.

In chemistry if you have some hydrogen in a tank, it is like that ball at the top of the hill. When you react the hydrogen with oxygen, you are rolling it down hill, releasing energy in the form of heat or electricity. When the hydrogen has all combined with oxygen you have water. Water is a ball at the bottom of the hill. There is no more energy in it. If you replace that energy (by electrolysis) you can get the hydrogen back out, and you will be back at the top of the hill. But thermodynamics says you must put every bit as much energy back
(and even some extra) to get it back up to the top.

We know this to be true in everyday life. You pedal hard and work your way to the top of a hill on your bike and then you can coast back down without working. As a kid you may dream or hope you can find a secret road that is flat that takes you back to the top of your hill. How cool that would be: coast down the hill, and then ride along a secret flat path that takes you back to the top of the hill! Heck...maybe even find a secret path that is *downhill* that leads back to the top of the first hill!!

Maybe you search for that road, maybe you even think there is a conspiracy amongst adults to hide that road and erase it from the maps, so only they can use it!

Back to our issue at hand: Water as a fuel.

Think about the oceans of the world. That water has been there for billions of years. Think of how many lightning bolts have hit the oceans over those years, think of the asteroids that have impacted the oceans in the past. Yet the oceans have never
caught on fire and burned up. A lightning bolt is at millions of degrees temperture; an asteroid is a temperature and pressure burst equivalent to a nuclear bomb. Yet the water does not burn.

Further, let's assume water behaved in the manner Genepax claims:
Without adding external energy, water will separate into hydrogen and oxygen..then release heat and electricity and then recombine back into water. Suppose this was true....the oceans of the world would be continually separating into giga-megatons of hydrogen and oxygen...the sky would explode releasing all the water to rain back down and fill the oceans again. Then it would happen all over again...and over again...forever.

If thermodynamics were not true, this kind of run-away disaster would be going on everywhere in the universe. In fact it would have blasted the universe to smithereens billions of years ago!

Sorry for going on so long, and I don't mean to be patronizing to anyone, just maybe talking about this in a bit of less technical way than your typical lecture on physics...

Cheers to all,
Hatfield (and the North)

Hatfield,
I didn't think it went on too long, but then I enjoy good writing.
It sounds as if you've studied chemistry and physics. I loved your launch into hyperbole:
That was my most enjoyable laugh for the day; mucho thanks.

Obviously, if there's something to this Genepax thing, there is a lot we don't know about the "black box" in the center of this thing; the MEA. Just google MEA's; there's gotta be sumptin' to this! But I agree that the carbon footprint of whatever technology it is should be examined closely.

Do you think they could have nano-constructed some highly catalytic structure (with the input of lots of energy) & (in addition to some other stuff going on in the black box) to make this conform to the laws?

Thanks,
~

Hatfield



I really do wish that people with brains would stop relying on the old school theory that has never been proven , that is merely a guideline that is taught in schools , mainly because it has never been publicly accepted as disproven.

thermodynamics is a set of theories or laws they are not facts.

you say that the Genepax will not work from your observation of what little bit of information you have seen !!!

That is not a scientific approach to anything !!

just by using a few lines of what you were taught in school you claim that the Genepax will not work...

well I have seen the video.
I have seen the animation that describes how it works and can clearly see that it could easily do just as described...

what have you shown us other than your ability to follow in the footsteps of those who have stagnated progress and technology for the past several decades by quoting the same old same old that has been the main reason for the denial of funding of many a great invention.

and what were your tools ...a few observations scribbled down several hundred years ago?

that have been twisted and manupilated to conform to the ideals of a oil dependent world.

If you would have examined the "how it works" animation

how it works

you would have noticed that on one end there is an explosion that separates the water into hydrogen and oxygen.

on the other end there is a implosion as the hydrogen and oxygen join to form water again , the same amount of energy that is required for the explosion is returned by the implosion.

I would suspect that the implosion provides the "explosion"
or separation through a vacume and a nano structured membrane material.

wouldnt you?

there also appears to be a frequency vibration applied before the seperation , I have read that some low frequencies can split water.

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Samwik, Thanks, it is good to write and talk about ideas...the more viewpoints the better! Lots of interesting stuff is going on with nano catalysts. It's bound to be important in improving efficiency in fuel cells. I know of some research that uses a nano catalyst to split water with focused sunlight, and a special membrane to isolate the hydrogen. Cool stuff....but as always, the energy must come from somewhere...i.e. the sun.
The promising part of this method is that it goes straight from sunlight to hydrogen. No photovoltaic cells needed.

Paul, This seems to have political overtones to you. If we were having a beer together we would probably be on the same political wavelength.

But it just won't work to make thermodynamics into some sort of political conspiracy.

Thermodynamics is confirmed over at least 400 years of work by
un-counted engineers and scientists in every nation and under every political system. It is certainly "old school". But it is old school just like the laws of gravity are old school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_thermodynamics

These things represent some of humanity's greatest accomplishments and go back in time to pre-history. The earliest cave-people quickly learned you could not take a bunch of ashes from the fire-pit and trade it to the neighboring tribe for fresh firewood!

If we are going to work out the coming problems of climate change and energy supply, we need a poplulation that at least understands the basics. People need to know what a BTU is, and what a Kilowatt Hour is. They need to have some idea of what is valuable and what is snake-oil.

Hatfield



only if you changed your wavelength.

I suppose if you had tried to get funding for a project that was requested by Georgia Tech , the major school of engineering in america , and not by just one professor of " mechanical " engineering at Ga Tech , but several , just to be told that you could not get the funding
"because the project would violate the known laws of physics"
that you might even feel as if there was a conspiracy.

(although every single person "proffessor's and doctor's" who examined the project aggreed that there was something to it by requesting that it become a summer project )

because it would have violated a known law of physics it was not allowed funding.

and to make this even better a few years later you found that the state that you applied for funding to was de-salinizing sea water with something extremely close to what you requested funding for.

and the method that they were using was saving energy , loads of energy.

you might get further interested in a conspiracy about energy and the use of the laws of physics to refuse funding for energy related inventions.

you state that


I believe that we need a population that is wise to the tricks and methods of those who use the laws of physics for their own personal reason and gains and neglect the needs of the many that need the new technologies that have been so easily refused funding and so frequently lost.

I dont believe that we need a public that understands the basics of physics , what we really need is honest people that are in control of the energy related funding programs.

and those people should definetly not be people that would lose their jobs if a real energy savings technology were to come about such as the CFPFM or others that have been denied funding or scientific recognition.

think about it if you worked for the department of energy would you allow funding to go to a project that would end your job?



They need to have some idea of what is valuable

and if they want snake oil here is the place to find it.

and what is snake-oil.

The snake itself


I noticed that you avoided responding to what I said about the
explosion and the implosion below



I would like to know your thoughts on this , did you overlook these or just didnt think it would fit into your end of this discussion?



.

Paul,

Man I'm sorry this bad stuff happened to you. I too have been ripped off and lost several years of design work in electronics.
It's something you don't really get over. Lost money, time, and faith in people you trusted.

It sounds like you have designed a system that can crack water.

If you really have achieved this, you owe it to the world to get it out into the mainstream. There will be plenty of people...some even here on this blog...who will back you up and see that you get full credit. You'll end up very rich and the oil cartels will collapse!

As for Genepax, the proof will be in the pudding as they say. One thing about this stuff it that it can't be faked for long.
According to their web site, they are going to reveal a full test
of the car and the power system in the next few weeks.

And yes, I did look at the video and the website animation. All the video shows is a guy pouring water in a metal box at the back of the car, and then the car drives away. I mean, really, what does this prove? And the animation....well it's an animation.....

Hatfield



then you loose hope of ever finding a source of funding.
then you just give up.

I am sorry that you lost your work because of tech thieves.
the only really easy way to accomplish that is to apply for funding or apply for a patent.

The CFPFM is not a device that cracks water.

It is more secure than that , it cannot be taken out with anything other than a direct hit.

it is not subject to emf.
and cannot be taken out of service through any type of high energy / electrical attacks.

It strickly was to be a secure power generating facility due to our vulnerability to terrorist attacks that could cripple our nation.

and could have been widely distributed on this security basis to each state / city / county / buisness / or home if needed.

the CFPFM opperates only on hydraulics.
and could be initialy charged by a hand pump to attain the initial fluid pressure needed for opperation.



Good It will be something to watch.

even though it could be taken out by high energy weaponry , at least it would help to improve the climate situation.



LOL



not hardly , they would just steal the tech by making a few insignificant changes and using the money they already have to market THEIR NEW PRODUCTS.

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