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Anon wrote:

"but the universe is too well organized and structured to be an accident or a random occurrence."

To which I can only reply - no it isn't.

Anon also wrote at length on the nature of god- what it is or isn't- and examined the link between reason and truth. At least I think he/she did. Maybe not. I did read it all- but I got lost when the Matrix was mentioned. I DID NOT like that movie at all!! and also I am not sure exactly what is meant by the experience of truth. (The comma helped-- Thanks Sam). Surely the truth of one's own being may be flawed without our knowledge- we can never know everything and can only do our best and try not to hurt others, something which happens all too often when we feel we know the one true answer.

Sam--Ah guilt-- what would we do without it! (Be happy probably!)

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I feel appropriately guilty (I hope),
but I try not to let it bother me too much (I suspect).

smile

p.s. re: my previous reply to anon. Here's a link to the Stuart Kauffman thread:
http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=26073#Post26073
Reinventing the Sacred

Last edited by samwik; 06/17/08 05:41 AM. Reason: add p.s.

Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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Quote:
God is neither Good nor Bad, God is. As such, We being made in the image of God, are the image of isness and that image is a reflection that some see good, some see separateness, and some see perfection.
I like this point, Anon.
This is why I prefer to use an acronym: GØD, GOD--all that is good, orderly and well designed.


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Originally Posted By: samwik
I feel appropriately guilty (I hope),
but I try not to let it bother me too much (I suspect).:)...
I like this quote from Erich Fromm, a well know social psychologist and writer, for a few years ago:
"Man is the only animal for whom his own existence is a problem which he has to solve." (1947)

Last edited by Revlgking; 06/17/08 08:32 PM.

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Speaking of arguments..
I thought this was pretty cool.
http://cloudtenpictures.com/301StartlingProofs_Prophecies1-FINISHED-optimized_final.pdf
Except for the ending where they throw this at you..

Perhaps you were a die-hard atheist, or a strong skeptic. But now you believe
that God does really exist. And you may now be willing to believe that everything God
says in His word, the Bible, has come true just as He said, and will come true just as He
prophesied. Jesus died for the sins of all mankind. The only thing you have to do is
recognize that you are one of the sinners who needs to be saved from sins. And you need
to ask Jesus to forgive you of your sins, to come into your life, and to give you eternal
salvation just as He promised. It’s as simple as that. If you are ready to accept this in
your heart, you can say this simple prayer to God:
Dear Father in heaven, I realize that I am a sinner and worthy of the fires of hell. At this
moment I confess my sins and ask You to forgive me for my rebellion against You and my
refusal to accept the love of Christ. I accept the sacrifice that Your Son Jesus made for
me on Calvary’s cross. I believe that You raised Him from the dead. I confess with my
mouth that Jesus is my Lord. Thank You for hearing this prayer and accepting me into
the family of God because for the blood of Christ that covers my sins. And I know that
from this moment on I am saved. Thank You, Lord.


Personally I don't subscribe to the idea that one accept sin as being so simple, and then being automatically absolved by simply saying your guilty and asking for forgiveness.
This would be something similar to having worked all your life as a plumber and then having someone come along to say, "you're better suited to raise chickens." And as a result you respond by saying "Yes your right," and automatically you are a chicken farmer.
Simply saying you believe and asking for forgiveness does not automatically connect you to the experience of God. It may connect you to a network of believers who say things and believe things but their individual experiences will only be united in commonality of interest rather than commonality of life purpose and the experience of God being in everything, including every thought feeling and action.

People in general have allowed the outside authority to take away their intuitive intelligence, which in itself has had no nurturing in any public school and rarely in any family.

Rather than learning about ourselves from others who have mastered themselves, we surrender all definitions to scientific diatribe which is based not on totality but on relative percentages in speculation and theory.

Trust has developed into mass hypnosis or the support of majorities rather than cognition. Facts and figures that will change, become the template for beliefs.
Spirituality was really meant to lead to greater intelligence rather than a herd mentality.

Obviously winning an argument doesn't mean you are intelligent.

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Quote:
Anon wrote:

"but the universe is too well organized and structured to be an accident or a random occurrence."

To which I can only reply - no it isn't.

To which I will reply. Of course it is.... whistle
Quote:
God is neither Good nor Bad, God is. As such, We being made in the image of God, are the image of isness and that image is a reflection that some see good, some see separateness, and some see perfection.
I like this point, Anon.
This is why I prefer to use an acronym: GØD, GOD--all that is good, orderly and well designed.

Isn't that special for you. I do this I do that, it all has some special meaning for you and you would like it to be just as special to others so that you can feel good about yourself.
God is a word and everyone attaches their specialness to the word and as a result worship themselves and their special iconic relationship to God rather than actually letting go of the specialness that keeps them bound to their individuality.

What would really be amazing is if you could find the same "experience,"in every spelling of God, rather than the one you worship. You might actually get closer to God in all forms. Your fascination for symbolism, hoping that it might reflect your unique intelligence and individuality actually reveals your ignorance of something that goes far beyond individual specialness and the acronyms that are created to polish the ego.

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Originally Posted By: Anonymous
...What would really be amazing is if you could find the same "experience,"in every spelling of God, rather than the one you worship. You might actually get closer to God in all forms. Your fascination for symbolism, hoping that it might reflect your unique intelligence and individuality actually reveals your ignorance of something that goes far beyond individual specialness and the acronyms that are created to polish the ego.
Ah, but I do "find the same experience". Thus I do not insist that anyone use my words. This is why I respect, without making any kind of judgment about their egos, how others speak of their 'god'. For example, Orthodox Jews use 'G-d'.

BTW, thanks for the dialogue. We have a lot to explore. I understand that, in love, it OK to disagree.

As Jesus told us not to judge, I have no judgment of them, or of theists, or deists (Both have quite different kinds of theology) when they use the same word, God.

BTW 2, how is it that so many Christians are so different from one another and, yet, they say that they believe in the same God? This is even true for a lot of born-again Christians. If God is a singular person, why does he not come to us, directly, and make it clear to all, willing to listen, what is the truth. Even an atheist will tell us: "I do not believe in God." I always ask, "Which God is it that you find unbelievable?"

May I suggest: It seems to me that a personal god would have a personal URL. Why doesn't God? It could be the NOW Bible.

Based on Matthew 18:19-20, I will, gladly, in prayer, ask him: "God, please feel free to join us... Anyone care to join me?

UNITHEISM
Unitheism does not have this problem.

How come, you may ask?

Because GOD--or GØD--for a unitheist is not a concrete, human-like person, or three-D super being. But rather that which is universal--in and through all that is--and all encompassing. Read John 10:34 and John 17: 20-24. "That all may be one..."

CHECK OUT PROCESS THEOLOGY
==========================
http://www.process-theology.org/
Quote:
Process Theology is an acknowledgement that contemporary understanding of God and God's expression through creation, including human beings, is always in "process" and never complete. That is to say that Process Theology is unlike traditional theologies in that it is not static. The idea that our understanding of God should be "the same yesterday, today, and forever" is thus rejected in Process theology. It recognizes that our understanding of truth, especially as it relates to concepts of God and human beings, is in need of progressive growth. It embraces the idea that the best of human nature is continually being nudged in the direction of growth and improvement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_theology

Last edited by Revlgking; 06/17/08 10:07 PM.

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Quote:
Ah, but I do "find the same experience".


Ah but you don't! You made it abundantly clear that you have chosen your symbol because of the meaning you gave to it.
Quote:
This is why I prefer to use an acronym: GØD, GOD--all that is good, orderly and well designed.

Obviously you have spoken to the effect of your choice and its meaning to you. You did not say all spellings have this meaning to you, only this particular acronym.

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There are other options rather than theism and atheism,or scientism. Taoism,Buddhism are non theistic. That is a personal God is not even a relevant thing to argue.
Why? Because both Science and the Judeo Christina tradition are linear,which requires linear causation.
Taoist perspective and the Buddhist Doctrine of interdependent orgination see linear causality as an illusion derived form epistimology the limits of the perceiver. Kind of like the Quantum Enigma.Materialism has a problem with the very basic nature of its constituent parts which exhibit nonlinear,non temporal superposition,entanglement and other issues.
Strident Atheism is really a pathology not a philosophy as it puts so much emotion and energy to dispute logically that whihc it f it does exist al all is Trans logical.

Last edited by Hwayen; 06/18/08 02:38 AM.
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HWAYEN, CURRENTLY, I am reading QI GONG--For Total Wellness by, Dr. Baolin Wu &Jessica Eckstein. Very interesting.Have you heard of it?

Tao=the way. Yeshuah, the Hebrew and Aramaic translation for the Greek, Jesus=the I am, which is the healing way. Jesus spoke "the way".

Let the dialogue continue. We can learn a lot when we are willing respect all sincerely held beliefs.


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AT-ONE-MENT with GØD
The following words, which came to me
this AM, fit the tune,
HOMECOMING, by Haygood Hardie
================================
We are one with mother earth;
One with the land the skies and seas;
One with the source of human birth;
We are one...nnn in GØD.

We are one with father sky;
One with the sun, moon, planets, stars;
One with the galaxies on high;
We are one...nnn, in GØD.

With the Golden Rule in mind,
We work for justice and for peace;
With all our fellow human kind,
We work with GØD.

Some ending notes..........
With GaaaØD...innn GaaaØD...in GaaaØD, thuhhh ONE.


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
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This just came to me while reading your last post Rev.

Jesus loves me, How'd I know???
Well somebody told me so..
Yass Jesus Loves me...
Yass Jesus Loves me...
Yass Jesus Loves meeeeee
'Causes someone told meeee soooooooo. whistle


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Anon, an excellent response.

Because I respect all sincerely held beliefs--and once benefited from the concepts of theism--I think I understand, and I respect, your sentiment. All such feelings are valid. I am serious. No sarcasm intended.

Now, feel free to stop being anonymous. Then let us have a sincere dialogue about such matters--agreeing to disagree, in Christian agape-love.

BTW, without being dogmatic, I consider myself to be born-again. That is, I am at the age where I know I could die; and I am preparing to do so.

I wonder: How many of us have taken the pause to ask ourselves: How do you feel about your own mortality?

POSTERS: How do you feel about your own mortality?
BTW, I have been warned by my doctor, and a specialist: "At your age, you are facing several risk factors such as ..."


Last edited by Revlgking; 06/18/08 10:27 PM.

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"'but the universe is too well organized and structured to be an accident or a random occurrence.'

To which I can only reply - no it isn't." -ellis

how so? you just say that without any evidence, or have I over-looked that?

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Nope, you didn't overlook it. It was a blanket statement.

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Exactly. And what evidence do we have- either to show that our universe is the result of random breeding, or designed? I would say not much: for we only see the fringes of all that is within this place. We may be learning more, but not nearly enough in either direction to make dogmatic conclusions (not to say you all on here are being dogmatic, I respect all your opinions) about what is out there, and more importantly, why it is out there, and how. Yeah?

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Quote:

Exactly. And what evidence do we have- either to show that our universe is the result of random breeding, or designed?

I believe that was eluded to in this link, previously posted
http://cloudtenpictures.com/301StartlingProofs_Prophecies1-FINISHED-optimized_final.pdf


I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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I haven't even looked at the link, but I bet the evidence has been eluded.

An allusion to an illusion doesn't prove anything, in general.

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I bet the evidence has been eluded too!

Sorry, ...couldn't resist.

~K

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Well proof is relative. There is no guarantee that anyone will believe something if it is stated as a proof, and science isn't exact.
Society in general pretty much believes everything it is taught in school, told and shown on mainstream media, even if it isn't someones personal experience.

Last edited by Tutor Turtle; 06/19/08 06:54 PM.

I was addicted to the Hokey Pokey, but then I turned myself around!!




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