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WATER FUELED CAR



I wish I would have found this yesterday.
can anybody see why?



MORE

http://www.engadget.com/2008/06/13/genepax-shows-off-water-powered-fuel-cell-vehicle/

Well , it looks like the U.S. is once again in the rears due to
its OIL BASED ECONOMY that did not allow technological advancements such as this one , isnt that smart.

I want one of these cars and a generator for my house and my boat that I dont have yet , but will be able to afford when I get the new car and generator , and all the other things that I will be able to afford then , even a few steaks every week , maybe take in a few movies every month , visit amusement parks ,
there will be a definite economy boost when people can afford to boost the economy.


.

I saw on the television on one of the Science type channels a person who developed a car which ran on water by pumping the water to the engine which then comes into contact with a metal which would strip the hydrogen from the water and power the vehicle. The super thing about this process was that its exhaust was oxygen with water and it could get reclaimed by the fuel tank. The bad part of this was that it was powered by water and in much of the Earth water has a tendency to freeze during the winter months.

Rallem: "The bad part of this was that it was powered by water and in much of the Earth water has a tendency to freeze during the winter months."

Good point. I wonder if it works with anti-freeze added.

I think a well insulated tank along with a low voltage heating supply would be the trick.

the car istelf could monitor/maintain the "WATER/FUEL" temperature and crank itself up when the battery requires a charge.

get this , the air conditioning system could even supply much of the needed water , the tank could be refueled while it is raining , water could be extracted right out of humid air ,
etc..etc..etc..

you know how greedy people are , if this becomes the norm for our energy needs and Im sure it will !! then it will be things like the above that will keep the COST of water down !!!

I wonder if the fuel cell can return much of the water it uses after it converts the H and O2 into electricity?

it should do this to keep people^ from claiming it would cause too much water vapor , a greenhouse gas.

.

Reply by Mike Kremer

I suspect this idea may only come into its own in the lab, or used for publicity purposes.
The crux of the problem being the fuel cell.
The fuel cell would either be powered by a battery which would have to be recharged every night?
Or it would work by pressuring water through membranes, similar to salt desalination, except that as far as I am aware there is no membrane in existence that can separate hydrogen from the oxygen. Both systems would require a large amount of battery power, for electrolysis, or a very high pressure, when considering the small size of the Hydrogen atom.
In any case the water would need to be Ultra pure, to prevent cleaning the Fuel Cell of clogging impurities, at least on a weekly basis.
Desalination plants use large amounts of electricity, pro rata their size.
The most efficient oxygen from water conversion is still done by plant life.
Found a Fuel cell pics, any one read Jap?

http://www.genepax.co.jp/pdf/wes_20080613_ver1.pdf

They call it a WES Cell

http://www.genepax.co.jp/pdf/wes_20080613_ver1.pdf
pdf pages 8,9, and 10 (Adobe Reader)

You have the idea here. A membrane is used to remove certain molecules that are disolved in another liquid like NaCl molecules from H2O. They are not used to break bonds unless extra energy is supplied.

Seeing as how the electrolysis process will not be 100% efficient (thanks a lot entropy!), would it not be more advantageous to use the 'energy generator' directly?

PAUL

Living in a northern climate, I have to agree that an insulated tank would be needed, but so too would the tube for putting water into the tank. When it hits -40, the water would freeze quickly to the tube. Storing you car in a heated garage may help, but then you get the corrosion problem to the rest of the car.

Mike

There was a membrane being researched in california around the time (2002)I was submitting apps to the P.I.E.R. program at S.D.S.U. for the CFPFM that was refused funding !!

I have a PDF and permission to discuss it from the researcher.

however I will only say that the membrane was using pressure to separate / crack water.

I have read about a membrane that will seperate / crack water just by pouring water onto the membrane , and this sounds like this is the same tech.

not sure but it sounds like it.

.

John



I suppose that maybe in those conditions you would use hot water to pour into the tank , or better yet crushed ice.

theres a way around it Im sure.

still I think that if the system were designed to reuse the water , then there would never be a need to add water.

.

Is this story true, and for real? Or is it one of those urban myths?

With water already scarce in many parts of the world (and likely to get worse with climate change according to some reports) has this car the potential to cause the same sort of dilemma for water resources that the bio-fuel debacle has for food crops?

That little car is very appealing though!

Presuming that there are honest scientists and technologists among us: Speak up. Is this an expensive hoax, or not?

Revl,
Hoy, I wasn't reading closely enough. This is the opposite of a hydrogen fuel cell (that I thought it was).

They must have some catalytic membrane, eh? How long could that last; must need to use very pure water. ...No? ...Tea?
I'm gonna have to look closer at this to see how this isn't perpetual motion. Maybe they don't go beyond the hydroxyl stage, when "splitting" the water.

p.s. Re: Mike's comments:
I also was wondering if it used a battery to power the cell, but wouldn't it be easier just to use the battery directly?
That's why I assumed they must have some high-tech catalyst, maye even nano- or bio-engineered.

Samwik

The membrane I mentioned earlier wasnt actually a membrane it was a material that cracked the water the water wasnt pressurized through it.

it just cracked water through its surface configuration.

I dont know if this is the same tech that the Genepax uses though.

One of my posting-friends from Brainmeta.com sent me this. Check out:
http://green.yahoo.com/news/ap/20080616/ap_on_bi_ge/japan_honda.html

MORE ON FUEL CELLS

Having looked at the various Fuel Cell configurations and types, the info naturally is hard to find.
I am very certain now, that the type of fuel cell used is the
type that uses the 'free energy' of molecules to provide an
immeadiate Electric current. ie Charged particles (ions and
electrons) that are produced by an Electrochemical reaction.
For instance a Lead Acid battery will produce a heavy amount of
power compared to say a Water/salt mixture and Zinc.
Both will give out no more than 2 volts DC, but the lead/acid will produce far greater power.
Both the lead and zinc are sacrificed in both cases. Of course the lead/acid can be recharged, the lead plumbum is reconverted back to spongy lead. I dont think the Salt/zinc battery can be reconverted....but these simple batterys are often used as low powered beacons by Sailors who fall into the sea, then the Salt/zinc battery auto-lights up when it comes in contact with Seawater.

The Fuel Cells that everyone has been working on for the last
thirty years needs to first and foremost to have its plates
micro-porous to provide the largest area as possible.
Area will equate with Amps, (power) but not voltage. A plate might very well be made up with a 'Platinum Black' mixture.
This is extremely expensive but will not corrode.....and in fact
might not take part in the Electrochemical reaction, but act as
a Catalyst,....dependent upon the type of liquid used to produce the ionic current. Platinum is a very useful Catalyst.
A thin wire of Platinum when exposed to house gas, will glow
white/red, and ignite the gas. the basis of a unique pocket lighter, produced over 20 years ago.
Virtually any liquid that can carry even a small current can be used as the Ionic carrier.
Furthermore, any current carrying liquid can be used between virtually any two different metals to make a battery.

What the companys have been working on for 30 years is to find
the best Micro-porous material with the greatest surface area,
to act as either as an Anode or Cathode (dependent upon their
surface coatings) that will resist clogging up, and last as long
as possible. Porous Ceramics or metallalised plastic Polymers
might be being used today...but not Glass Fibre plates.

Its not an easy problem. Although I have never worked directly
on this problem. I was working on the periphery of Fuel Cell
research, in industry over twenty years ago. I suggested using a
metallised Glass fibre coated plate as an Anode.
Now back to the Fuel Cell for driving a Car.
I will guarantee that, yes, the fuel cells liquid will be Water,
But it will have to be mixed with another product!
Possibly an Alcohol or likely Methanol, or prehaps another type
of ion carrying Hydrocarbon?
The high surface area plates will be sealed and kept secret,
they will have a small amount of Methanol, or other material to
help with the reaction. But YOU will only be allowed to add the
water!
The Manufacturer who provides the largest surface area of plates
will win. Two volts at 500Watt...will run a car. It will probably use a special electric motor, integral and inside one of the car wheels, where the brake normally is.
Having said all this ....The reverse is possible. you could
obtain quite a large amount of Hydrogen and Oxygen quickly, to
evolve off the Anode/Cathode plates, by putting a current
into the fuel Cell due to the very large plate area.

I understand that the Govenor of California, Swartezenegger, is
very keen on putting in Hydrogen filling stations, so that
people will be tempted to buy a Hydrogen fuelled car.
Here again the production of Hydrogen is power intensive, and
relies upon the Coal burning (or atomic?) power stations.
The carbon footprint for a Hydrogen running car would be greater
than the simplified fuel Cells I have described above, and
probably higher than a gasoline driven V4 or V6?
A Hydrogen cars advantage is:- no emissions, plus it would run
as fast and far as todays conventional Auto. It would come into
its own as the price of gas rises at the pumps.
Greedys will buy one....when the rest of us should be cutting
down on power usage, by buying smaller and slower.

Rev



yes its true , heres something else that is true.

You owe over 30,800 dollars to the FED

Not the U.S. Federal Government the FED , the people that our government sends the taxes they get from us , to pay interest on what they have to borrow every day.

there seems to be apx 300 million people in the U.S.
the current National Debt is at 9 trillion give or take a few hundred billion.

every day you get further in debt by $4.88

thats it , only $4.88 a day?

per U.S. citizen?

you still owe your share of the 9 trillion though.

It seems that industry has / is leaving the U.S. because of ever tightening environmental restrictions and labor laws and labor cost.

now if the Genepax were to be funded by the U.S. Government and automobile plants were built in the U.S. then thousands of american workers would be making enought money to pay taxes on their wages , this would result in hundreds of other buisnesses employing more workers to support the new automobile industries in america , lets dont even think of leaving out the current auto manufacturers , as they could re-tool and do contract work to build the Genepax autos , generators , etc.

Our industrial strenght would increase in America , there would be no more need for environmental restrictions due to fosil fuels , our young men and women would not need to join the armed forces just to find work...

if this Genepax does what it says then , I doubt that they will be able to find funding , or a manufacturer to mass produce it , other than the U.S. or China.

fact is in my own personal opinion both the U.S. and China should have a serious look into it.

if something doesnt happen soon then we might end up looking at each other in other ways.

We need the energy that is remaining.
They need the energy that is remaining.

instead of going to war to get whats left , we could go to war together to end the pollution , wouldnt that be much better?


...

Mike

I didnt think to check where Rev lives , I was thinking that he lives in the U.S. my mistake.

it was (you owe the FED) , not (the FED owes you).

Here is where I live:
http://www.mapquest.com/maps/6+King's+Inn+Trail+Markham+(Thornhill)+ON+L3T1T7/
Thornhill (MARKHAM) is immediately north of North Toronto--like a suburb. It is a dynamic and growing area--a collection of communities, old and new, with lots of green space, so far. It even has a local airport.

Ten minutes from me, there are two major four-lane highways. One starts from the heart of Toronto--25 minutes drive from where I live--and goes north to the lakes and cities in the north of Ontario. The other is, also four-laned; it is a toll highway running east/west.

BTW, I have lived in the GTA since 1961, and have seen a lot of development. Pearson International airport is about 25 minutes to the west of where I live.

Markham population in 2006:261,000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markham,_Ontario.

This car is an immediate and obvious scam. It violates thermodynamics and conservation of energy laws that people should learn in junior high. Water is not a fuel: water is the ashes left from burning a fuel. (Hydrogen and Oxygen)

If this thing operates as stated, then why not just connect its exhaust pipe back to the water input. Then it runs forever without even adding new water.

The fuel in this car is obviously a reactive metal such as lithium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, aluminum etc. Or a hydride of these metals. The metal is consumed just as fast
as gasoline would be consumed in a normal car. Even worse, these metals are produced by using huge amounts of electicity and very high temperature industrial processes. The carbon footprint of these metals is worse than gasoline or diesel.

Equivalent price per gallon of this fuel is likely more than $20 per gallon.

I guess we will just have to wait and see.

and if it does work as they say then it would violate the way we percieve laws to be , or the way we deemed they should be , so I hope they wont have them arrested.

or killed like stan meyer's was for having a car that ran only on water.

http://waterpoweredcar.com/stanmeyer.html

well as for conservation of energy this would really
be a prime candidate for conservation of energy because
the energy comes from water and obviously returns as water.

energy conserved

.

Welcome Hatfield,
I also wanted "to see how this isn't perpetual motion." (post #26658)
===

I thought this was fascinating:
http://www.genepax.co.jp/mechanism/system.html
Thanks paul.

MikeK, this is an animation of page 10, from your pdf link (post #26631), of the electron flow.

I guess MEA means "membrane electrode assembly."
Their MEA has an O2 at the end of the name (I think), so maybe some sort of catalytic oxide (layered with other catalysts)?

Thanks for the fuel-cell info, Mike.

Paul comments But isn't one of the roles of science that of looking for new ways of doing things?

For centuries the geocentric model of the universe--the theory that the Earth is at the center of the universe--was held by to be true, until Copernicus, who died in 1543, challenged the old ways. A century later, his theory--published while he was on his death bed--was confirmed by Galileo. Aristotle and Ptolemy, and most Greek philosophers assumed that the Sun, Moon, stars, and naked eye planets circle the Earth. Similar ideas were held in ancient China.

In modern times: Look at the changes that had to be made to the laws of aerodynamics when scientists tackled the challenge of flying faster than sound.

With the Internet we will know soon enough what is the truth about the "water-fueled" car.

Hello all and thanks for the welcome!

I'm definitely on your side...the key to progress is open minds and imagination. But having said that, the best tool we have is the body of science as we know it. Sure, it is an on-going, evolving set of ideas. But science has a bed-rock of principles that have been so strongly proven, so thoroughly tested and re-tested, that we accept them as the reality of our observable universe.

The laws of thermodynamics, the laws of conservation of energy are the bed-rock of chemistry and physics. They are not going to be reversed or over thrown. You don't need to even know the math or the details to know these laws are running the universe.

Thermo and Conservation of energy just basically say: "A ball rolls down-hill. When it gets to the bottom of the hill it stops rolling. You must expend energy to carry it back to the top of the hill. Simple as that.

In chemistry if you have some hydrogen in a tank, it is like that ball at the top of the hill. When you react the hydrogen with oxygen, you are rolling it down hill, releasing energy in the form of heat or electricity. When the hydrogen has all combined with oxygen you have water. Water is a ball at the bottom of the hill. There is no more energy in it. If you replace that energy (by electrolysis) you can get the hydrogen back out, and you will be back at the top of the hill. But thermodynamics says you must put every bit as much energy back
(and even some extra) to get it back up to the top.

We know this to be true in everyday life. You pedal hard and work your way to the top of a hill on your bike and then you can coast back down without working. As a kid you may dream or hope you can find a secret road that is flat that takes you back to the top of your hill. How cool that would be: coast down the hill, and then ride along a secret flat path that takes you back to the top of the hill! Heck...maybe even find a secret path that is *downhill* that leads back to the top of the first hill!!

Maybe you search for that road, maybe you even think there is a conspiracy amongst adults to hide that road and erase it from the maps, so only they can use it!

Back to our issue at hand: Water as a fuel.

Think about the oceans of the world. That water has been there for billions of years. Think of how many lightning bolts have hit the oceans over those years, think of the asteroids that have impacted the oceans in the past. Yet the oceans have never
caught on fire and burned up. A lightning bolt is at millions of degrees temperture; an asteroid is a temperature and pressure burst equivalent to a nuclear bomb. Yet the water does not burn.

Further, let's assume water behaved in the manner Genepax claims:
Without adding external energy, water will separate into hydrogen and oxygen..then release heat and electricity and then recombine back into water. Suppose this was true....the oceans of the world would be continually separating into giga-megatons of hydrogen and oxygen...the sky would explode releasing all the water to rain back down and fill the oceans again. Then it would happen all over again...and over again...forever.

If thermodynamics were not true, this kind of run-away disaster would be going on everywhere in the universe. In fact it would have blasted the universe to smithereens billions of years ago!

Sorry for going on so long, and I don't mean to be patronizing to anyone, just maybe talking about this in a bit of less technical way than your typical lecture on physics...

Cheers to all,
Hatfield (and the North)

Hatfield,
I didn't think it went on too long, but then I enjoy good writing.
It sounds as if you've studied chemistry and physics. I loved your launch into hyperbole:
That was my most enjoyable laugh for the day; mucho thanks.

Obviously, if there's something to this Genepax thing, there is a lot we don't know about the "black box" in the center of this thing; the MEA. Just google MEA's; there's gotta be sumptin' to this! But I agree that the carbon footprint of whatever technology it is should be examined closely.

Do you think they could have nano-constructed some highly catalytic structure (with the input of lots of energy) & (in addition to some other stuff going on in the black box) to make this conform to the laws?

Thanks,
~

Hatfield



I really do wish that people with brains would stop relying on the old school theory that has never been proven , that is merely a guideline that is taught in schools , mainly because it has never been publicly accepted as disproven.

thermodynamics is a set of theories or laws they are not facts.

you say that the Genepax will not work from your observation of what little bit of information you have seen !!!

That is not a scientific approach to anything !!

just by using a few lines of what you were taught in school you claim that the Genepax will not work...

well I have seen the video.
I have seen the animation that describes how it works and can clearly see that it could easily do just as described...

what have you shown us other than your ability to follow in the footsteps of those who have stagnated progress and technology for the past several decades by quoting the same old same old that has been the main reason for the denial of funding of many a great invention.

and what were your tools ...a few observations scribbled down several hundred years ago?

that have been twisted and manupilated to conform to the ideals of a oil dependent world.

If you would have examined the "how it works" animation

how it works

you would have noticed that on one end there is an explosion that separates the water into hydrogen and oxygen.

on the other end there is a implosion as the hydrogen and oxygen join to form water again , the same amount of energy that is required for the explosion is returned by the implosion.

I would suspect that the implosion provides the "explosion"
or separation through a vacume and a nano structured membrane material.

wouldnt you?

there also appears to be a frequency vibration applied before the seperation , I have read that some low frequencies can split water.

.

Samwik, Thanks, it is good to write and talk about ideas...the more viewpoints the better! Lots of interesting stuff is going on with nano catalysts. It's bound to be important in improving efficiency in fuel cells. I know of some research that uses a nano catalyst to split water with focused sunlight, and a special membrane to isolate the hydrogen. Cool stuff....but as always, the energy must come from somewhere...i.e. the sun.
The promising part of this method is that it goes straight from sunlight to hydrogen. No photovoltaic cells needed.

Paul, This seems to have political overtones to you. If we were having a beer together we would probably be on the same political wavelength.

But it just won't work to make thermodynamics into some sort of political conspiracy.

Thermodynamics is confirmed over at least 400 years of work by
un-counted engineers and scientists in every nation and under every political system. It is certainly "old school". But it is old school just like the laws of gravity are old school.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_thermodynamics

These things represent some of humanity's greatest accomplishments and go back in time to pre-history. The earliest cave-people quickly learned you could not take a bunch of ashes from the fire-pit and trade it to the neighboring tribe for fresh firewood!

If we are going to work out the coming problems of climate change and energy supply, we need a poplulation that at least understands the basics. People need to know what a BTU is, and what a Kilowatt Hour is. They need to have some idea of what is valuable and what is snake-oil.

Hatfield



only if you changed your wavelength.

I suppose if you had tried to get funding for a project that was requested by Georgia Tech , the major school of engineering in america , and not by just one professor of " mechanical " engineering at Ga Tech , but several , just to be told that you could not get the funding
"because the project would violate the known laws of physics"
that you might even feel as if there was a conspiracy.

(although every single person "proffessor's and doctor's" who examined the project aggreed that there was something to it by requesting that it become a summer project )

because it would have violated a known law of physics it was not allowed funding.

and to make this even better a few years later you found that the state that you applied for funding to was de-salinizing sea water with something extremely close to what you requested funding for.

and the method that they were using was saving energy , loads of energy.

you might get further interested in a conspiracy about energy and the use of the laws of physics to refuse funding for energy related inventions.

you state that


I believe that we need a population that is wise to the tricks and methods of those who use the laws of physics for their own personal reason and gains and neglect the needs of the many that need the new technologies that have been so easily refused funding and so frequently lost.

I dont believe that we need a public that understands the basics of physics , what we really need is honest people that are in control of the energy related funding programs.

and those people should definetly not be people that would lose their jobs if a real energy savings technology were to come about such as the CFPFM or others that have been denied funding or scientific recognition.

think about it if you worked for the department of energy would you allow funding to go to a project that would end your job?



They need to have some idea of what is valuable

and if they want snake oil here is the place to find it.

and what is snake-oil.

The snake itself


I noticed that you avoided responding to what I said about the
explosion and the implosion below



I would like to know your thoughts on this , did you overlook these or just didnt think it would fit into your end of this discussion?



.

Paul,

Man I'm sorry this bad stuff happened to you. I too have been ripped off and lost several years of design work in electronics.
It's something you don't really get over. Lost money, time, and faith in people you trusted.

It sounds like you have designed a system that can crack water.

If you really have achieved this, you owe it to the world to get it out into the mainstream. There will be plenty of people...some even here on this blog...who will back you up and see that you get full credit. You'll end up very rich and the oil cartels will collapse!

As for Genepax, the proof will be in the pudding as they say. One thing about this stuff it that it can't be faked for long.
According to their web site, they are going to reveal a full test
of the car and the power system in the next few weeks.

And yes, I did look at the video and the website animation. All the video shows is a guy pouring water in a metal box at the back of the car, and then the car drives away. I mean, really, what does this prove? And the animation....well it's an animation.....

Hatfield



then you loose hope of ever finding a source of funding.
then you just give up.

I am sorry that you lost your work because of tech thieves.
the only really easy way to accomplish that is to apply for funding or apply for a patent.

The CFPFM is not a device that cracks water.

It is more secure than that , it cannot be taken out with anything other than a direct hit.

it is not subject to emf.
and cannot be taken out of service through any type of high energy / electrical attacks.

It strickly was to be a secure power generating facility due to our vulnerability to terrorist attacks that could cripple our nation.

and could have been widely distributed on this security basis to each state / city / county / buisness / or home if needed.

the CFPFM opperates only on hydraulics.
and could be initialy charged by a hand pump to attain the initial fluid pressure needed for opperation.



Good It will be something to watch.

even though it could be taken out by high energy weaponry , at least it would help to improve the climate situation.



LOL



not hardly , they would just steal the tech by making a few insignificant changes and using the money they already have to market THEIR NEW PRODUCTS.

.



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