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#26894 - 06/27/08 06:19 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Anonymous]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Thanks Anonymous
At 73 minutes long, I was unable to take it all in.
But in the first 4 minute he mentions that the Russians had found lots of oil after drilling super deep at over 40,000 ft down.
That again verifies Thomas Gold's theorys, when he dug thru granite rocks to find oil.
The Russians always did listen to Thomas Gold.......I wrote about Gold's oil theory here, couple of weeks ago.

http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&Number=26630#Post26630

Many thanks for your Video though, very interesting indeed.


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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#26897 - 06/27/08 08:16 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Mike Kremer]
Anonymous
Unregistered


If you listen to it all he explains at the end that they have capped the largest well in the world and are pumping the natural gas that is in the well back into the ground. With the intention of keeping it a secret from the public.

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#26898 - 06/27/08 08:37 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Oh, and that well is in Alaska, and it costs about a dollar a barrel to get it out of the ground.

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#26899 - 06/28/08 12:56 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Anonymous]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
I still think we should convert the corn into fuel and let the people of the poor nations starve to death. It the only humane thing to do.

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#26900 - 06/28/08 03:34 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Rallem]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Rallem
I still think we should convert the corn into fuel and let the people of the poor nations starve to death. It the only humane thing to do.


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


Bad thinking, bad bad Rallem.
Well I know you dont really mean it, but do have you any ideas?

You got a lot of arable land in the USA, and a lot of BIG trucks
So prehaps things dont look so bad to you.
But even so, here are some statistics about Big (Mac) Trucks

By the end of this year,Europe wants all diesel fuel to contain 5% biodiesel. By 2012, 20% of all diesel fuel must contain Bio-diesel, over here!
The only way the world’s farmers can keep up with rising demands is to clear more land for farming. (Not that I think we will ever reach 20% bio by 2012). Probably be a World recession by then?

I'm not sure what percentage of Bio-Diesel is put into your gas pumps. But I'm sure your Goverment will increase the amount?
Something to do with the false economy of a lower carbon footprint?
Dosnt your goverment realise that you will quickly go into recession, by saving your US oil reserves? It will also produce a lot of unemployed malcontents?

The world is already experiencing a global food shortage. The price of wheat has doubled in the last year, and palm, soy, and other food prices are rising across the board. If more crops are grown for fuel, less will be grown for food. Tearing down the rain forest for farmland is bad enough, millions of starving people is even worse.

In the USA, Diesel gas has risen over 300% in 6 years. In 2002 The price of your diesel was $1.25 a gallon, now your national average is almost 5 dollars. Thats costing your truckers $1200 or more, to fill their tanks. Most Oil analysts are saying that there is no end in sight, come this time next year, you could be looking at $7 or $8 dollars a gallon! Here in the UK we are already paying nearly DOUBLE that amount, (a lot of that is tax)
Add the cost of insuring your big trucks, maybe $6000-8000 a year? It will become nearly impossible for your small independent truckers to stay on the road.
We have just been down that route, our British and French Truckers had to go on strike and block our Motorways before they got a payrise, recently.
I bet your smaller Trucker Co's will go the same way! Or go bankrupt and go out of business? Or maybe get bought up by the bigger boys? Thats my easy prediction, since it almost happened over here in the UK.
Our European Truckers have just forced a big pay rise. Wait until your truckers cant afford to fill up their tanks.
Price of Oil today is $143 barrel.....I predict $170 by winter?
With the UN soon unable to properly feed the starving.

What might happen if the Arab oil countrys suddenly decided to help their fellow Africans, by giving them cheap oil. Its the least they might do, to counteract all the super buildings they are putting up?



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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#26913 - 06/29/08 03:28 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Mike Kremer]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
Right now Gasoline is 10% ethanol, and Diesel fuel is just Diesel fuel, but we can buy Bio-fuel and we can also buy Bio-fuel blends where we can buy Diesel fuel blended with Bio-fuel B10, B20, and I’ve heard of B50 but have never seen it.

I think it is more important to this planet that we feed my Diesel truck cheaply than it is to feed the poor people of the World.

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#26973 - 07/03/08 03:35 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Rallem]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Mike says you don't really mean it Rallem, and I'll believe him. Unfortunately though some people DO say that and mean it. After all, to paraphrase Monty Python*,

--What have the poor ever done for you?!

*at least I hope it was Python!

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#26986 - 07/04/08 11:36 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Ellis]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK

Internal World Bank Secret report: "Biofuel caused food crisis"

Biofuels have forced global food prices up by 75% - far more than previously estimated - according to a confidential World Bank report
Senior development sources believe the report, completed last April, has not been published to avoid embarrassing President George Bush.
The Report emphatically contradicts the US government's claims that plant-derived fuels contribute less than 3% to food-price rises. Stating that Global food prices are up by 75%, due to the growing of Bio-fuels.
The British government, which was due to release its own report on the impact of biofuels, last week, has been put on hold.

It is thought British study will also state that plant fuels have played a "significant" part in pushing up food prices to record levels

***Thoughts
[color:3333FF]It looks as though the Pro-Bio fuel camp have based their 'less than a 3% food price rise' upon Biofuels derived from Brazillian Sugar Cane.[/color] Which people dont eat anyway.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/03/biofuels.renewableenergy

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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#26992 - 07/05/08 03:02 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Mike Kremer]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
I was hoping the bio-fuels would raise the price of food more than that. I really don't think we should be giving away our food cheaply. Oh btw if the price of food is getting outrageous for you perhaps you should plant a garden.

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#27318 - 07/27/08 07:14 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: paul]
Anonymous
Unregistered


They could always grow hemp to produce bio diesel fuel. Hemp wouldnt interfere with world food costs because it is not used for food. Also hemp is the male plant of cannabis sativa so there is very small trace amounts of thc in it. Hemp feilds could not be used to produce marijuana for sale.

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#27319 - 07/27/08 07:19 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Anonymous]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Hemp wouldnt interfere with world food costs because it is not used for food.

Does that mean that it will grow on land that cannot be used for food crops?
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#27320 - 07/27/08 02:04 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: redewenur]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
The biofuel crops are based on insight, most of energy of solar radiation is wasted in rotting of grass and weed, under releasing of methane or carbon dioxide, which are green house gases. If it's so, why to not to use this energy for human purposes? The vegetation has a positive effect into local clime and it's definitely more friendly with respect of biosphere, then the desert covered by solar cells.

The main problem is, the method of energy production depends on rich source of watter and the minerals (the nitrogen and phosphorus] must be returned into soil again - or such model will not remain feasible from long-term perspective: it will create a desert from land, not vice-versa..

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#27321 - 07/27/08 02:22 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Zephir]
Zephir Offline
Superstar

Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
The biofuel isn't the primary source of high food prices - on the vice-versa! It can be demonstrated easily by the look into history of the latest oil price crisis in the mids of 70's:



As we can see clearly, the history just repeats by now: the food prices are copying the oil prices - and in 70's no biofuel concerns was ever known. The raise of oil price was started as the result of decreasing price of dollar in consequence of Iraq war. If the money value goes down, the investors are looking for more permanent investments and the will changing their money into material commodities. The reality market and mutual funds were collapsed first and now money are transferred into more volatile markets: the oil and food in particular. It means, the primary source of oil and food price raise is the Iraq war in analogy with Vietnam's war, which was ended in the mid of 70's.

It means, if the USA government will continue in war with Iran, it will result into collapse of dollar and the global economy.

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#27327 - 07/27/08 07:23 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Anonymous]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
They could always grow hemp to produce bio diesel fuel. Hemp wouldnt interfere with world food costs because it is not used for food. Also hemp is the male plant of cannabis sativa so there is very small trace amounts of thc in it. Hemp feilds could not be used to produce marijuana for sale.


I see no problem with this. The Police might get upset because they fly overhead in helicopters looking for marijuana with night scopes because marijuana puts off a distinctive heat signature from most other plants, and if fields of hemp are legal then pot growers could disguise their marijuana in the fields of hemp, but really I think the benefits would outweigh that negative so perhaps we should legalize hemp for this purpose, but I have some questions. Would these hemp fields be replacing a field that could be used for growing food and if so wouldn’t that be interfering with world food costs? Wouldn’t sweet grass have the same effect on world food costs except maybe produce more fuel than hemp? Should we really be concerned with the cost of food to these poor nations?

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#27336 - 07/28/08 12:31 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Zephir]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Zephir
....
As we can see clearly, the history just repeats by now: ....


Zephir,
I'm sure impressed with your breadth of knowledge, and how well you have it integrated into an understanding of the way the world works. Thank you for sharing your insights on physics, economics, and immunology, etc. (so far) in this medium.

I'm figuring that you also can envisage alternate futures for the world's timeline; and even see missed possibilities based on different unrealized potential 'worldlines' emanating from key points in the past. It is maddening, isn't it?
Keep up the ggod work....
smile
~K

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#27373 - 07/29/08 10:56 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Anonymous]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Originally Posted By: Zephir
....
As we can see clearly, the history just repeats by now: ....


Zephir,
I'm sure impressed with your breadth of knowledge, and how well you have it integrated into an understanding of the way the world works. Thank you for sharing your insights on physics, economics, and immunology, etc. (so far) in this medium.
................>
Keep up the ggod work....
smile
~K


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

Yes, ....keep up your interesting posts Zephir.
No one should worry as to what is grown, if it keeps the starving alive, whether it be weeds or hemp.

The economic hardship caused by (Sir) President Robert Mugabe, has caused the new official rate of inflation to have reached 150,000%.
The price of a supermarket chicken has reached to 15 million Zimbabwe dollars a kilogram.
Zimbabwe, a former regional breadbasket, is facing acute shortages of food, hard currency, gasoline and most basic goods in an economic meltdown blamed on disruptions in the agriculture-based economy after the seizures of thousands of white-owned commercial farms that began in 2000, accompanied by political violence and turmoil.
Inspite of the political ramifications of violence and turmoil in Zimbabwe, I find it strange that when city dwellers find themselves starving.....they still seem to remain in the cities, even flee to South Africa, rather than relocate to the countryside to feed upon what ever vegetation might be around.

Countryside would seem to be the sensible place to be, since no jobs, no money, no imports, equals certain starvation.
Gross domestic product in Zimbabwe fell from about $200 in 1996 to about $9 a head last year.
With the collapse of the world Trade talks imminent, it can only get worse for the poorer countries.

I read today that someone walked into the Zimbabwe Bank here in London, handed over £1 ($2), and smugly walked out with a couple of Zimbabwe million $ notes, which they are going to frame, and keep.

Again today, 29 July The Guardian showed an amazing picture of Mud cakes, that have become the staple die of the poorest of the poor in Haiti.
The mud comes from a particular quarry, is trucked into Port-au-Prince, mixed with water, together with a drop of salt, and a smidgin of fat, dried in the sun, and sold to eat.
"It stops the hunger," said Marie-Carmelle Baptiste, 35, a producer, eyeing up her stock laid out in rows. She did not embroider their appeal. "Its essentially dirt, but you eat them when you have to."

I think there may come a time when the population of the really poor suffering countries, move out of the cities to forage, eat and grow, what ever they can, just to stay alive.
What ever their non-existent goverments think.
Stepping back in time to a thousand years ago, with far fewer mouths to feed.....could that be the future in some areas of the world?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/29/food.internationalaidanddevelopment

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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#27589 - 08/26/08 02:24 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Rallem]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK

You are getting your wish. Food prices are rising (Aug 29 '08)

By diverting grain and oilseed crops from dinner plates to fuel tanks, biofuels are jacking up world food prices and endangering the hungry. The grain it takes to fill an SUV tank with ethanol could feed a person for a year. Harvests are being plucked to fuel our cars instead of ourselves. The U.N.'s World Food Program says it needs $500 million in additional funding and supplies, calling the rising costs for food nothing less than a global emergency. Soaring corn prices have sparked tortilla riots in Mexico City, and skyrocketing flour prices have destabilized Pakistan, which wasn't exactly tranquil when flour was affordable.
Several new studies show the biofuel boom is doing exactly the opposite of what its proponents intended: it's dramatically accelerating global warming, imperiling the planet in the name of saving it. Corn ethanol, always environmentally suspect, turns out to be environmentally disastrous. Even cellulosic ethanol made from switchgrass, which has been promoted by eco-activists and eco-investors as well as by President Bush as the fuel of the future, looks less green than oil-derived gasoline.

Biofuels do slightly reduce dependence on imported oil,(*) and the ethanol boom has created rural jobs while enriching some farmers and agribusinesses. But the basic problem with most biofuels is amazingly simple, given that researchers have ignored it until now: using land to grow fuel leads to the destruction of forests, wetlands and grasslands that store enormous amounts of carbon.

Backed by billions in investment capital, this alarming phenomenon is replicating itself around the world. Indonesia has bulldozed and burned so much wilderness to grow palm oil trees for biodiesel that its ranking among the world's top carbon emitters has surged from 21st to third according to a report by Wetlands International. Malaysia is converting forests into palm oil farms so rapidly that it's running out of uncultivated land. But most of the damage created by biofuels will be less direct and less obvious. In Brazil, for instance, only a tiny portion of the Amazon is being torn down to grow the sugarcane that fuels most Brazilian cars. More deforestation results from a chain reaction so vast it's subtle: U.S. farmers are selling one-fifth of their corn to ethanol production, so U.S. soybean farmers are switching to corn, so Brazilian soybean farmers are expanding into cattle pastures, so Brazilian cattlemen are displaced to the Amazon. It's the remorseless economics of commodities markets. "The price of soybeans goes up," laments Sandro Menezes, a biologist with Conservation International in Brazil, "and the forest comes down."

Deforestation accounts for 20% of all current carbon emissions. So unless the world can eliminate emissions from all other sources--cars, power plants, factories, even flatulent cows--it needs to reduce deforestation or risk an environmental catastrophe. That means limiting the expansion of agriculture, a daunting task as the world's population keeps expanding. And saving forests is probably an impossibility so long as vast expanses of cropland are used to grow modest amounts of fuel. The biofuels boom, in short, is one that could haunt the planet for generations--and it's only getting started.

Why the Amazon Is on Fire

This destructive biofuel dynamic is on vivid display in Brazil, where a Rhode Island--size chunk of the Amazon was deforested in the second half of 2007 and even more was degraded by fire. Some scientists believe fires are now altering the local microclimate and could eventually reduce the Amazon to a savanna or even a desert. "It's approaching a tipping point," says ecologist Daniel Nepstad of the Woods Hole Research Center.
(Precis from: www.time.com/time/ - <Mar '08>

(*)My thoughts, from above
"Biofuels do slightly reduce dependence on imported oil"
Yes,..... but only at the level of the car population at the present time.
Personal car transport is increasing world wide. There will come a time when more land is given over to Bio-fuel production.
There will be no more land to deforest, and very little land left to grow food.
Eventually, the 'deforesters' will have to START increasing both their oil imports, AND importing expensive food.
People just cant give up their cars. They are essential to get to work. Modern living has ensured that most people,
have to drive dozens of mile to work every day. Nor do they want to give up the little bit of private quiet space
within their car where they can relax, and feel free to do and think whatever they like.

Bio-Fuels will always be a crime, in my book.
_________________________
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#27606 - 08/27/08 03:34 PM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Mike Kremer]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Mike, I don't find what you were linking to when you posted that link. Could you be more specific? It is a page full of links, but none of them looked like they were applicable to the topic.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#27619 - 08/28/08 12:23 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Hello Rose,
You are right. The posts upon this subject are somewhat disjointed re dates. I believe I was replying to Rallem (his post #26992 on 7th May)

I stated in my post, that Rallem was getting his wish....ie That the reported price of food was rising today.
(Thats an almost 4 month difference between his post and mine before this food price rise could be shown)
By all means delete my post, if you feel its non-relevant.
Since I am sure the headline "Bio-Fuel Crops are a Crime" will
come up again in the near future.

Mike Kremer

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#27622 - 08/28/08 01:33 AM Re: BioFuel Crops are a Crime [Re: Mike Kremer]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
Maybe the farmers will get their fair share now that they hold all the wild cards. I have no sympathy for the hungry in this situation.

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