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#26413 06/06/08 12:12 AM
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I wrote this last month:- (Upsetting someone? Since it was put in the'Not-Quite-Science forum')

"Before Bio-crops took over, people used to eat two bowls of grain per day, they are now only eating one. Not only that but food prices are rising world wide, the hoarding of rice and other grains by unscupulous dealers are affecting everyone. Noticed the price of bread and pasta lately?
Bio-fuel crops are a crime against humanity, in my opinion.
They also indirectly pollute the air with the extra vehicles they fuel.
Trying to keep the price of fuels down at the expense of the 3rd world is evil.
The U.N cant do any more than issue a token amount of free grain to the starving as it gets reported in the press. Publicity or guilt?
Selling ones body for a bowl of grain, and a dose of Aids, is the biggest crime of all. Money is no good to a starving person if there is no affordable food to buy.
This problem I'm writing about is not going to go away, until Bio-planting is banned, just you wait and see." http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=25676#Post25676

When I wrote the above, the price of Oil was $115.barrel.
Today its about $122.per barrel (having doubled over the past 12 months)
US pump prices are $4.00 and rising world wide.

With the coming of crop failures due to climatic floods, the price of basic foods
have risen up to 150%....so high, that there have been more food riots in Africa.
In North Korea people, are eating tree bark and grass just to stay alive.
Millions of people and children are undernourished as they cannot afford to buy their daily bowel of rice.
The earthquake disaster in China, has destroyed 5 million homes.
The floods in Myanmar (Burma) have been exacerbated by the seeming unwillingness of the their Goverment to allow relief workers in to treat water, or distribute rice.

Plus one of the biggest Oilfields in the World has just announced that it is running out of oil. Which if true may start sympathetic price rises on everything, everywhere....and that would include Propane and Methane as well.
http://www.ameinfo.com/71519.html

Now its the 'United Nations' and its distributers, that are finding they are suddenly short of food to supply to the Worlds millions of needy and starving.
They have plenty of tents and materials, but are seeing a depletion of warehouse grain storage.
They are not helped by the finding that millions of acres world wide have been devoted to growing non food crops, only suitable for producing Bio-fuels.
Easy peasy money for the farmers, who dont have to sort out the crops for weeds, but just take their money.
This Bio-fuel acerage has got to be replaced to grow food for humans once again.

The 'World Food Summit' still ongoing at the present time, has not yet reached an
agreement on key policy disputes. mainly the need to review the cultivation of crops for Bio-fuels.
Biofuel critics stated yesterday, that it was morally reprehensible for us to develop Biofuels, when there were hungry people in the world. (My sentiments exactly) However South American Bio producers accused the critics of denying their farmers a new source of income. To date no agreement has been reached.

I find it interesting that the biggest Bio-growers of fuel, Brazil, Venezuelia and Mozambique are exporters of oil?

Let the Car manufactures suffer for a few years, until they develop a smaller more efficient engines. Prehaps based upon microdroplets of fuel plus water? They are rich Companys, who will not go out of business. As we will still continue to buy our vehicles, even if they are smaller and slower.

There is no easy answer to an infinite population increase, coupled with a finite supply of oil, but its time the UN woke up to put a stop to Goverments growing Fuel, instead of food. It will be cheaper for all of us eventually.



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Mike

Its a disgrace the way we dont act.

We are slaves to energy.

if everyone would just do something everyday to lower their
personal energy consumption , the resulting decrease in the demand for energy would lower all food and energy prices and remove the need for Bio fuels.

a single step by each person multiplied by all people is what we need.

it will be the people of the world that will decide their fate
not those who decide what types of energy we use.

a car that uses a 90% efficient gas turbine engine
that turns a generator
that charges a battery
that powers a electric motor
could run with a 3.5 H.P. gas turbine engine.

the turbine could stay at a constant speed and charge the battery when you are stopped or at low speeds when you are traveling on the freeway at higher speeds the generator could be clutched off and the cars momentum can be maintained through direct drive using a reduction gear.

it doesnt take much to maintain momentum ever notice how far down your gas pedal is pressed when traveling at 55 mph?

a piston engine is only 10% efficient.

10 H.P X 90% efficent gas turbine = 9 H.P.

90 H.P X 10% efficient piston engine = 9 H.P.

Oh your probably wondering why I first said a 3.5 H.P. gas turbine engine... well gas turbines usualy turn at a very high rpm lets say the turbine turns at 10,800 rpm ( its a slow one )
10,800 rpm ... is way to fast for a electric generator
you would have to use reduction gears to decrease the rpm to a stable generator rpm of around 3600 this means that the 3.5 H.P. gas turbine is delivering apx 3 X the input H.P. which makes the output H.P. apx 10.5 H.P.

a lawn mower engine sized gas turbine can provide plenty of engine to power a good sized gas turbine electric car.

but it will be the people of the world that will demand a change
in energy that will accomplish such as this , not those who make more when you buy more , and not the governments of the world either , it will be the people.



Last edited by paul; 06/06/08 03:53 AM.

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Good point about the smaller engine options.

As for biofuels... it is a good example of how "free-market forces" don't understand the purpose of these noble ideas.

Biofuels should be grown on marginal soils (unsuitable for crop production) and should be encouraged in areas where poorer populations could benefit from the new programs.

I noticed the price of oil figures in this discussion.
Below is some info.
This also applies to other commodities like grains.

http://eneken.ieej.or.jp/en/index.html

Prospects for Crude Oil Prices & GCC Investment Strategies
http://eneken.ieej.or.jp/en/data/pdf/437.pdf
In the valuation of paper WTI... there is a void between less than US$60 per barrel and more than $120/barrel.
Speculative traders bid up the price of paper WTI - or paper Brent - as a hedge against inflation and as protection from the falling dollar.
...

Decomposition Analysis of the Soaring Crude Oil Prices
http://eneken.ieej.or.jp/en/data/pdf/421.pdf
The following pages briefly describe (1) demand, (2) supply, (3) insecure supply/geopolitical risk, and (4) futures market in relation to the changes in the oil prices.

[#4 is the one to focus on....]
...

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/journal/J/F0217A/2004.php
...

http://www.rice.edu/energy/research/IEEJ/index.html
The research will examine a variety of scenarios for the future of global energy markets, focusing on factors that could trigger a regional or worldwide crisis. The study seeks to assess the geopolitical risks currently facing international energy markets and the global financial system. It also will investigate the consequences that such risks could pose to energy security, pricing and supply as well as to the transparent and smooth operation of the global market for oil trade and investment.

Billionaire financier George Soros tells lawmakers speculation leading to oil price 'bubble'
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/06/03/business/NA-FIN-US-Soros-Oil-Speculation.php
The surge in popularity of commodity index funds is "intellectually unsound ... and distinctly harmful in its economic consequences," Soros told a Senate hearing. When speculators enter a market mostly on one side — in this case, betting on rising oil futures — it "distorts the otherwise prevailing balance between supply and demand."
...

Soros, Greenberger others tell truth of Oil market manipulation to Senate Commerce Committee..
http://www.clipmarks.com/clipmark/60A68087-A57B-4DAD-8D11-F10734E624DE/
Quote:
The Senate Commerce Committee Hearings on the Manipulation of Oil and Gas Prices the real star was Michael Greenberger who describes how America is being swindled by traders like Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs among others and why our energy prices are out of control due to deregulation and the Enron Loophole created by that swindler traitor Phil Gramm, John McCain's chief economic adviser..watch this it's the most important hearings in some time and the media is ignoring it..

...

http://38.105.88.161/Search/basic.asp?BasicQueryText=soros
Soros is one of the witnesses at today's Senate Commerce Cmte. hearing on energy market manipulation. Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-WA) chairs the hearing.
6/3/2008: WASHINGTON, DC: 2 hr. 16 min.: C-SPAN

I happened to catch much of this on CSPAN. I was outraged, etc., and agree with the summary above (Enron Loophole = deregulation of Futures Markets). Also note the entry (also unregulated) of London and Dubai Futures Markets into US commodities (90% of West Texas Crude).

Their opinion was that between 1/3 and 1/2 of the price of oil was due to speculation on futures markets by large institutional investors and hedge funds (solely for profit, not use of oil for actual energy).
frown

p.s.
So prices should drop quickly below $100 as some regulation is threatened.

Last edited by samwik; 06/06/08 09:56 AM. Reason: added p.s.

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Samwik

I couldnt help but notice this

Quote:
why our energy prices are out of control due to deregulation and the Enron Loophole created by that swindler traitor Phil Gramm, John McCain's chief economic adviser..


and wanted to comment while I can as a free american before we are hoodwinked into 4 more years of the republican party.
and further freedoms and control over our own lives are taken away.

McCain and Clinton are both heavily politicing on there
" EXPERIENCE "

How much "EXPERIENCE" was available to President Bush in the last 8 years?

I ask is it " EXPERIENCE " that we really need.

or do we need someone who hasnt been exposed to the "EXPERIENCE"

LOL... SBT

its time for back scratching and favors to be removed from the picture and strong measures taken to heal our nation.

Its time to get rid of the self serving republicans / politicians.

I intend to read over the entire reply you made and post any further comments at that time.

Its nice to find someone who understands that our present use
of piston engines is stupid to say the least.

granted using the cfpfm would remove any fuels usage in automobiles , power generation , etc...

It would be quite a shock to the energy sectors.

but it would be a boost to any and all other sectors.

at this time a move to a smaller more efficient gas turbine system would be more feasible and would still necessitate oil consumption only in much smaller quantities.

and look at the profits the auto industries would make as they
begin to replace all of the cars that get only 15 mpg with the ones that get over 300 mpg or more.

also the current foreign car manufacturers would most likely have to relocate to the U.S. because that is where all the scrap piston engine cars are.

according to supply and demand price force factors the price of gassoline at the pump would drop to just above what the government taxes are...

around 60-70 cents a gallon when you include the current gas tax of around 48 cents per gallon.

and lets dont forget the reduction in pollution.

alaskan crude pumps to ground level at apx $3.00 per barrell
we could use our own oil and only our own oil.

we could then begin to be an oil exporter.









Last edited by paul; 06/06/08 02:59 PM.

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Hi Paul and Samwick,
I take your points about using a more efficient Gas Turbine hybrid in as family car.

Unfortunately it would not provide any immediate help to the worlds starving. Since it would take years, if ever' for the price of oil to drop to ensure cheap food.
Human greed is such that unless the farmers were to get more money for grain production than the ease of Bio fuel, little will get done.
I would like to see a law brought in restricting BioFuel crops to prehaps just a few percent of normal food cultivation.
Prehaps even a ban put on BioFuel exports, if it exceeded a small percentage of the total land used for food?
Prehaps the building of more storage Grain Elevators might help, as well as fertilizer production?

Thinking of Pauls excellent idea of using the more efficient Gas turbine in family cars.
I was prepared to give it a no no, because of the hot fast exaust gasses might burn kids and pedestrians.
I was thinking of aircraft turbines on a smaller scale. But I was totally unprepared for my find when I searched for the possibility of a small turbine.
In fact I was amazed! A turbine just 6 inches long! Yet another smaller than a pak of matches!
Yikes!. If this is the future.....bring it on.
http://www.pinktentacle.com/2007/08/worlds-smallest-gas-turbine-engine/
And
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2006/microengines.html



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Why did the Solar Car, at one stage during last century the "Car of the Future", never get past the prototype stage? A race is still held every year for solar cars in Australia through the Outback (lots of sun!). The cars are small, very uncomfortable and very undeveloped. A small electric bike or car could be solar powered from batteries in the garage which store solar power during the day. We seem to ignore solar power, and it's there free and, here at least, in over-abundance!

To persist with growing crops for fuel instead of food, when people are hungry is immoral and disgusting.

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Mike

Quote:
Unfortunately it would not provide any immediate help to the worlds starving. Since it would take years, if ever' for the price of oil to drop to ensure cheap food.


Well the basic technology is in place already , if the U.S. were to really get itself in gear , and pursue this end , it would only be less than 2 years max before we could be installing turbine / electric engines into existing automobiles.

Now if it looks to "INVESTORS" the stock market as if the BIO fuels technology will be worth "0" in two years time , well need I say more.

everything already invested will be scrap for the most part , other than the experience gained from the research.

thats just the way it is.

I really enjoyed your links to the micro turbines , I believe the smaller one is earmarked for cell phones and the larger version for laptops.

the 20mm turbine can be used to propel someone in a personal transportation vehicle , similar to a motorized wheelchair.

if you think of the weight comparisons of load and engine size
you can see that this type of tech could drive semi trucks or any other type of vehicle normally powered by a piston engine...

a brand new 4x4 truck only delivers apx 700 ft lbs of torque.

check out these torque values from several Truck manufacturers

and think about foot pounds of torque , if you weight 150 lbs
your body weight can supply 150 ft lbs of torque at 1 ft from center of the wheel...

some of these trucks only supply 140 ft lbs of torque...

where are all the horses?

a single H.P. will supply 3.92 times that amount of torque.

550 / 140 = 3.92

is there someone in there designing the trucks with 120 H.P. engines to only be capable of delivering 140 ft lbs ?

1 H.P. is the amount of power to lift 550 lbs to a height of 1 foot in 1 second..

120 H.P. should be able to pick the truck straight up into the air
550 lbs * 120 H.P. = 66,000 pounds lifted to a height of 1 foot in 1 second.

that 3000 lb truck should be capable of hopping straight up to a height of at least 22 ft in the air in 1 second...

can anyone think of why cars and trucks get such terible gas mileage and performance?

I can its called deception , control , and greed as mike pointed out.


Ellis

solar power is growing strong here in the U.S. in california there are solar powered cars in a way , there are companies that are using solar power to split water for the hydrogen to fill hydrogen powered cars tanks.

in this way the normaly free suns energy becomes a sellable product.


hows the tower comming along , after we had a previous discussion on it , I watched a program about it and other projects on the science channel I believe , and they seem to already have included the sudgestions I made about increasing the height toward the center because of the thermal expansion of the air flowing through it.

I noticed they did not include the sudgestion of using a black top or black sand to increase the airs temperature.

which could also be used to decrease the overall size of the project in general.


Last edited by paul; 06/07/08 03:07 AM.

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My impression is that a big part of the price increase in food has been the rise of the middle class in China and India. They want (as most people everywhere do) to eat more and better, and often to eat more meat. Meat is much less efficient in terms of productivity than grain is, so an increase in meat production to meet this demand translates into less grain for direct human consumption.

Also, the price rise in oil (which is partly but definitely not totally due to the same up-and-coming middle class) has dramatic effects on food production costs.

Remember that a significant fraction of the corn that is converted to ethanol in the US is from grades of corn that would not be eaten by people, and that much of the cane in Brazil that is used for ethanol production is waste material that wouldn't be eaten by people. So it isn't a one-for-one switch of food-producing land to "gas"-producing land.


Mike B in OKlahoma

"Never confuse with malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."

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Good points! ...poor harvests in '07, and there's also the financial speculation in oil and food commodities that allows rich people to circumvent the falling dollar.

Mismanagement of biofuels is only a small part of the confluence of circumstances that increasingly has things falling apart.

I suppose all the bad events to come will get blamed on any attempts to prevent or ameliorate those very same looming problems.

Cheers,
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The main disadvantage of gas turbines is...od of your car.

This technology has been around since 1872. If they were viable in the automobile, then they would have been adapted to that application long ago. That they have not, and reading Mike Kremer's micro engine links confirms this, means they are difficult to create. It is important to investigate other sources for energy and other possible efficiencies, but this does not seem to be one of them.

Ellis mentioned solar, but we are still waiting for a breakthrough, like "avalache" cells, to increase efficiency. They are still too expensive and only work well in bright sun.

Originally Posted By: paul
can anyone think of why cars and trucks get such terible gas mileage and performance?

I can its called deception , control , and greed as mike pointed out.


If you really believe this, then make a better product! If anyone can make a much more efficient vehicle, they will soon become billionaires.

You are also missing something in your horse power/ pounds of torque argument. "One horsepower is also commonly expressed as 550 pounds one foot in one second or 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute." In other words, you are missing the time taken to perform the useful work.

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Here is another link that may be important to our biofuels discussion: http://www.scienceagogo.com/news/20080508234022data_trunc_sys.shtml

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John

Quote:
You are also missing something in your horse power/ pounds of torque argument. "One horsepower is also commonly expressed as 550 pounds one foot in one second or 33,000 pounds one foot in one minute." In other words, you are missing the time taken to perform the useful work.


Let me break it down for you.

I said
Quote:
1 H.P. is the amount of power to lift 550 lbs to a height of 1 foot in 1 second..


you replied with
Quote:
You are also missing something in your horse power/ pounds of torque argument. "One horsepower is also commonly expressed as 550 pounds one foot in one second


then you added work to the picture

Quote:
In other words, you are missing the time taken to perform the useful work.


I did not reference Work , however the 1 second should have been substantual.

if you want to think of this in work terms then
550 ft lbs / second of work
can be performed each second by a 1 H.P. piston engine that is if the 1 H.P. engine is 100% efficient or the 550 pounds is only 10% effiecient (55 lbs). LOL

sorry but
Quote:
you are missing something there
not me.



Last edited by paul; 06/09/08 07:27 PM.

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I totally disagree with the assessment that growing plants for the production of bio fuels is evil for a few reasons. Firstly the food we produce here in America has been rejected in the starving countries of Africa for being bio engineered, so if they would rather starve than eat our bio engineered crop then in my opinion let them die. Secondly Just because we have the ability to grow food to feed other countries does not in any way obligate us to feed those other countries, and by doing so we are in my opinion committing a bigger crime by denying one of Earths defenses against over population which is famine from being effective. If the people in these other countries wish to survive they should first control their population growth and make sure they themselves can produce their own food or go to war and conquer the food of their neighbors. Finally I feel it is our responsibility to take care of ourselves first and foremost and if we cannot afford to pay the other person’s price for a barrel of oil then we have the obligation to ourselves to find alternatives which includes converting food we would usually sell to others for our own fuel.

I found this:

http://www.mindfully.org/Food/2004/Politics-Feeding-World23apr04.htm

With much of its population reeling from the economic disaster left from a two-decades-long civil war, Angola jeopardized its international aid last month by announcing it would not accept genetically modified food, consumed daily by Americans in any number of processed foods, but shunned by Europeans.

Angola's decision has been even more maddening to aid groups because the specifics of the ban remain unclear. As a result a 19,000-ton U.S. corn shipment to the country has been delayed.

Zambia and Zimbabwe, citing environmental and health fears, have also rejected biotech food aid in the past. Other African countries have accepted American biotech grain only after it was milled to prevent errant seeds from taking hold in the countryside.

Last edited by Rallem; 06/09/08 09:57 PM.
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Rallem

At first I thought it was a great idea , then I believe mike made a post about the greed involved.

and when mike dissagrees with something I take a serious look into it.

I was thinking that the bio crops would be grown on less suitable land or unused land , I surely did not think that our already stretched food supply would be threatened by bio crops.

I take a trip about 40 miles several times a month , and have been doing so for years , there are many farms along the way that grew a diverse variety of crops , however recently I noticed that the crops are mostly corn and the corn no longer grows in rows ... it is just matted as thick as carpet , the corn stalks are no more than 4 inches apart , I suppose this is a result of bio crops.

its easy to see that there is more corn plants in each farm for bio corn vs food corn.

easy money is hard to refuse.

thats the problem and the evil mike speaks of dont you think?


Last edited by paul; 06/09/08 10:38 PM.

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It is said that the greed factor of our farmers trying to make more money by not growing crops for food and rather by growing crops for bio fuels, but let me point out that farmer's first responsibility is to his family and that it is the greed of the people in the starving countries which is causing their dilemma. If they cannot take responsibility for their own survival, then why are they still making babies? How dare they make more babies when they cannot feed the ones they already have? I find it funny that liberals like the people here are so willing to place the blame on America for the ills of the world when it is the rest of the world itself which is refusing to take responsibility for its own actions.

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Rallem

A good point indeed Rallem , one that is hard to concieve is when the ethiopians were starving , the U.S. gave assistance in the form of agricultural supplies , they ate the seeds , they took the tires off of the tractors and trucks and sold them or burned them for fuel.

the food earmarked for the starving was stolen and used to feed the army of who ever was in control of the area at that time and the remaining grain / food was sold to purchase weapons.

it seems that giving food is not a good idea and that giving supplies to grow food is also not a good idea , the only thing we could do to ensure that starving people have food available is to remove food as a fuel.

agreed sometimes trying to help other nations is like pulling your own teeth.

but are we to stand by and watch as they die by the millions?

can you envision a farmer in some poor nation trying to grow FOOD waking up one morning to find the local army stealing his crops to sell as bio fuels?

I can.

before long a farm would have to be equiped with surface to air missles to discourage an airborn assault.

and even here in the U.S. farmers are asking for trouble if they continue to grow bio crops , because starving people will try to feed their families no matter what country they live in.


Last edited by paul; 06/10/08 12:18 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Paul
and think about foot pounds of torque , if you weight 150 lbs
your body weight can supply 150 ft lbs of torque at 1 ft from center of the wheel...


You then divided 550 as the equivalent to 1 HP by 140. It is as though you are suggesting that those trucks have only have a quarter horse power. That does not make sense. The 140 is not per second. From your link, the 2.2 L engines in the Chev S10's have 120 HP SAE @ 5,000 rpm and 140 ft lb @ 3,600 rpm. That is 120 HP and 140 ft lbs.

Let's do it right. 550 ft lb per second / 140 ft lbs

Since the ft lb units will cancel each other out, you end up with 3.92 per second. That means nothing.

Originally Posted By: Paul
I did not reference Work , however the 1 second should have been substantual.


Horse power is the measure of work, so you did reference work.

Of all the things I said, that was all you would respond to?

When you discuss easy money, I think we might agree on something. To get rid of the biofuels industry is easy. Get rid of the subsidies. Getting rid of the bio fuel requirements would be even better because I wonder what the result would be if we use the non-arable land to grow biofuel crops. That will not stop world hunger. Much of the starvation is cause by politics.

I would not go so far as to call biofuel crops a crime, but it is wrong to push something that reduces fuel efficiency such that the suggested positive ends will never be realized.

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Originally Posted By: paul
Rallem

A good point indeed Rallem , one that is hard to concieve is when the ethiopians were starving , the U.S. gave assistance in the form of agricultural supplies , they ate the seeds , they took the tires off of the tractors and trucks and sold them or burned them for fuel.

the food earmarked for the starving was stolen and used to feed the army of who ever was in control of the area at that time and the remaining grain / food was sold to purchase weapons.

it seems that giving food is not a good idea and that giving supplies to grow food is also not a good idea , the only thing we could do to ensure that starving people have food available is to remove food as a fuel.

agreed sometimes trying to help other nations is like pulling your own teeth.

but are we to stand by and watch as they die by the millions?

can you envision a farmer in some poor nation trying to grow FOOD waking up one morning to find the local army stealing his crops to sell as bio fuels?

I can.

before long a farm would have to be equiped with surface to air missles to discourage an airborn assault.

and even here in the U.S. farmers are asking for trouble if they continue to grow bio crops , because starving people will try to feed their families no matter what country they live in.



If you go back to an earlier reply I made here you will see a url where it says that among other factors the food we sent to these starving countries was refused by these very countries, so to answer your question, yes we should watch them die and not feel any pity for them, because it is their choice.

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John

Quote:
The 140 is not per second


your right it is the maximum amount of torque that the engine can develope.

1 H.P. can lift 550 lbs 1 ft in 1 second.

it can lift 550 lbs 60 ft in 1 minute.

it can lift 33000 lbs 1 ft in 1 minute.

the truck is rated at 120 H.P. at 5000 rpm.

revolutions per minute...

this is what I said

Quote:
some of these trucks only supply 140 ft lbs of torque...

where are all the horses?

a single H.P. will supply 3.92 times that amount of torque.

550 / 140 = 3.92


Quote:
You then divided 550 as the equivalent to 1 HP by 140. It is as though you are suggesting that those trucks have only have a quarter horse power. That does not make sense.


that does not make sence why did you sudgest that?
I said
Quote:
550 / 140 = 3.92


550 is the torque that 1 horse can supply.

140 is the torque that 1 chevy s10 can supply.

the difference is that the chevy has 120 horses.

so... where are all the horses.

this means that 1 horse can supply 3.92 times the amount of torque that a chevy s10 can.

Quote:
140 ft lb @ 3,600 rpm.


in other words you are saying that a chevy s10 engine needs
to be turning at
3600 revolutions per minute
or
60 revolutions per second
in order to develope 140 ft lbs of torque.

where did you get the "missing the time" at
Quote:
In other words, you are missing the time taken to perform the useful work.


Quote:
I did not reference Work , however the 1 second should have been substantual.


the time is included in horsepower , it is 1 second.



Last edited by paul; 06/10/08 06:24 AM.

3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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Quote:
yes we should watch them die and not feel any pity for them, because it is their choice.


it was the choice of the regions army / whatever not the starving people.

people dont choose to starve normaly it is the leaders / controllers of people that choose for them.


.


Last edited by paul; 06/10/08 06:29 AM.

3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.
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