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#26326 - 05/30/08 01:32 PM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: samwik]
Revlgking Offline
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In a thread titled: God/Religion a creation of the powerful human mind ?/!

TL writes
Quote:
We are the Universe experiencing itself. That is God, we are God, all is God. Everything else is semantics and personal taste.

For what follows, check out:
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19195&hl=


Edited by Revlgking (05/30/08 01:33 PM)

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#26335 - 05/31/08 03:01 AM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Sam-- thank you for 15 mins of escapist laughter! With my usual talent for honing in on the unimportant I found Bruce de Nostradamus. Brilliant stuff, and the Franglais is wonderful.

I am saving up reading the Physics of Shakespearean Sonnets!

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#26339 - 05/31/08 11:10 AM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
In a thread titled: God/Religion a creation of the powerful human mind ?/!

TL writes
Quote:
We are the Universe experiencing itself. That is God, we are God, all is God. Everything else is semantics and personal taste.

For what follows, check out:
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=19195&hl=
Thanks, Rev. Checked that out.

"We are the Universe experiencing itself"

- Maybe we are an infinitely small part of an infinity of universes, experiencing an infinitely small part of one of themselves. Maybe we are a simulation existing only in a computer. Maybe..., or maybe..., or maybe...

"That is God..."

- Maybe it is, and maybe it isn't.

"...we are God"

- Maybe we are part of the writer's God, or maybe his God doesn't exist, or is almost wholly misconceived.

"Everything else is semantics and personal taste"

- The basis of any dialogue on metaphysics is semantics and opinion about the unknowable, serving to propagate, consolidate or weaken opinion. According to 'personal taste'? - In many cases, perhaps; but in other cases according to one's idea of what is reasonable and probable, even if not provable.

So, although the dialogue inevitably becomes endlessly cyclic, and even though it cannot provide definitive answers to metaphysical questions, it can be useful. For many who have been indoctrinated into a religious dogma, however, questions of 'personal taste', 'reasonable' and 'probable' are much less likely to arise, and dialogue is more likely to be of little or no value. Statements like those quoted above, though probably well considered and not a product of indoctrination, are nonetheless dogmatic.

That's my opinion, subject, of course, to possible modification pending unanticipated data...etc, etc, etc grin
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#26346 - 05/31/08 10:23 PM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Quote:
That's my opinion, subject, of course, to possible modification pending unanticipated data...etc, etc, etc
RedE, this is the kind of spirit of dialogue we need, which, I feel, can lead to understanding.


Edited by Revlgking (05/31/08 10:24 PM)
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#26348 - 06/01/08 06:45 AM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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In my opinion the most important proof of the existence of an entity/state/whatever which is defined as 'god' is the belief that it 'is'. I think that god (however defined) is a human construct, with rules and dogma sustained by the faith of the believer in the divine.

Without belief there can be NO god.

Would god exist if believers did not profess their belief? I think not.

Does god exist in the minds of those who profess certainty of belief? I think so.

Why would people believe in god? I guess there are as many reasons as there are people, and almost as many manifestations of god, but from observation it seems to me that many profess belief in god for comfort, for advancement, for surety and for peace of mind- amongst many other things. It is true that many get reassurance from belief in god, however they imagine the divine, but their belief is not proof of the existence of god. It merely proves their own faith in the existence of such a possibility.

So-if you think there is a god--then for you there probably is. However if you do not think that there is a god --well, for you there definitely isn't.

It's a matter of choice.




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#26351 - 06/01/08 11:56 AM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
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Ellis: "Would god exist if believers did not profess their belief? I think not."

- You seem to be saying that God, the conceptualisation, is real in the way that a dream is a real dream; that it has abstract reality. I suppose that many theists would agree with that; but where you differ is in your belief that there is no counterpart as a creator and sustainer of the cosmos.

Ellis: "Without belief there can be NO god"

- I take that statement to be untrue, because (a) reality is independent of belief, and (b)metaphysical reality can be neither proved nor disproved. Right?

_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#26353 - 06/01/08 08:48 PM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, you say, "So-if you think there is a god--then, for you, there probably is...." I presume the same principle applies when we think of children who believe in Santa. But keep in mind: for the child, this is a subjective reality, not an objective one for all others, agreed?

The thought just came to me: I wonder how many adult theists--that is, people who speak of God as if he is a "He", one who blesses and judges people--...I wonder if they ever stop to think that it appears that they seem to speak of God in the same way as young children do of Santa?
======================================
BTW, RedE, if you grant me the right to define the kind of god concept which I accept as valid, I do not rely on faith alone. Even when I walk by faith, I walk in the light, the insight that I have, not blind faith.


Edited by Revlgking (06/01/08 09:44 PM)
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#26354 - 06/01/08 10:39 PM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Ellis]
samwik Offline
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Ellis,
Not to pile on, but....

In terms of external realities, don't you think there could be some facet of this weird universe, to which we are currently blind, that could qualify for being defined as godish?

I'm a lifelong atheistic science wonk, but it is science that leads me to admit for the possibility of some such facet of "true reality," that may be godish and provide some underlying connectivity, and perhaps even "purpose," to life in general. It's easy to translate to that view, from the many different views of those whose understanding might externalize, objectify, reify, concretize, or even anthropomorphize that potential intrinsic aspect of reality.

~ smile
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Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#26356 - 06/02/08 12:35 AM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: samwik]
Ellis Offline
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Godish-- lovely word. And the perception of the reality of god including-"the many different views of those whose understanding might externalize, objectify, reify, concretize, or even anthropomorphize that potential intrinsic aspect of reality." Did you mean deify by the way? I agree but I would add "deify" or "worship" the list. God-ness surely implies worship or some other acknowledgment of the divinity that, for the religious, accompanies the recognition of godish god-ness. It is necessary to take the leap into the unknown that leaves us so uneasy we ascribe it to god. Or not. Once again it is down to personal belief and perception.

Rev wrote" I presume the same principle applies when we think of children who believe in Santa. But keep in mind: for the child, this is a subjective reality, not an objective one for all others, agreed?"

That is exactly what I mean. One's personal faith is just that, personal. No one can know what you believe. Therefore if you believe that there is a god then there is, for you and other like minded people. If you don't believe no one can make you.

Belief creates god- and don't forget that Jesus suggests that we become more like little children in our trust.



Edited by Ellis (06/02/08 12:37 AM)
Edit Reason: grammar

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#26358 - 06/02/08 05:39 AM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
BTW, RedE, if you grant me the right to define the kind of god concept which I accept as valid, I do not rely on faith alone. Even when I walk by faith, I walk in the light, the insight that I have, not blind faith.

You have that right, and it's not for me, or anyone else, to grant it.

I do, however, argue strongly against many beliefs, not on the basis that they differ from my own, but because they contradict and conflict with the verifiable, non-metaphysical aspects of the universe. Such beliefs, it seems to me, almost always result from indoctrination into a religion that advocates blind faith as a central virtue.

Conversely, I admire and congratulate people who have the courage to re-examine their beliefs in the light of the aforementioned aspects.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#26363 - 06/02/08 12:08 PM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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"In a certain sense, everything is everywhere at all times."

- Alfred North Whitehead, Science and the Modern World

For the mathematical roots of Whitehead's cosmological thought check out:

http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=2365
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#26365 - 06/02/08 05:17 PM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Browsing I just came across the following references to unitheism:

http://users.skynet.be/horizons/unitheisme/indexeng.html
UNITHEISM
English [Español] [français]

UNITHEISM : the true universal religion was born.

God addresses to all human beings a new message of joy, freedom, tolerance and

fraternity. God wants human beings to put an end to religious fights and wars.

He wants human beings - Christians, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists,

Pantheists and all followers of any sects - to join the universal peace.
===============
Aanother reference from a Muslim writer:
CHAPTER ONE
===============
What are the origins of religion and why does the theological science that deals with them is called the science of (Kalam)? [1]

* The origins of religion are; unitheism; belief in the prophet hood of Muhammad, belief in the Resurrection; belief in the twelve Apostolic Imama; and belief in the justice of Allah.

They are considered the fundamentals of the holy building of Islam, assuming that the structure of religion as a whole is relying on them; i-e without them any lawful regulation can not be authenticated.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#26375 - 06/03/08 04:04 AM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Rev wrote:

"God wants human beings to put an end to religious fights and wars" - as part of a definition of unitheism.

Perhaps if there were no religions it would be a quicker way to stop religious wars than waiting for your particular sort of god to suggest stopping fighting.

Or to put it simply -- No religion = no religious war.

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#26382 - 06/03/08 01:15 PM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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"Perhaps if there were no religions it would be ..." Ellis, I am sure you realize you are dreaming, in colour, eh?

"God wants human beings to put an end to religious fights and wars" - Keep in mind, this was a quote from an article I found.

Think semantically here: Do not assume that you know what I mean by 'GØD'. When I use the term 'GØD' I never use it to depict an objective super being, up or out there, who wants this that or the other thing, one who answers and/or denies prayers we make to "Him". 'GØD' is a concept which CAN operate without what you call "religion".
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#26393 - 06/04/08 05:34 PM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Soma, in the PROCESS FORUM wrote me:
Quote:
God the Father is an undivided and indivisible Whole, a pure consciousness that fills all time and permeates all space. This makes our purpose not to find God, but to realize God's presence and to understand that this all pervading consciousness is always with us. Life flows up from the inside where the Divine Presence is springing up from within us. When we realize this, we recognize that this all-pervading consciousness is responding to us from every person, thing or event that transpires. The Divine Presence is everywhere so let us awaken to the realization of this Presence.


Thanks Soma, I responded. The I told the following story to illustrate the point he made:

One Friday evening, while serving as a minister, as I was getting ready to take my family out for dinner, the phone rang. When I answered I heard the voice of a teenager girl, who gave me her name, which I recognized:

"Rev. King, I am calling from a pay phone. I hate to bother you at home, but something terrible has happened to our family. When I got home from school my parents were out on the street and loading our few belongings into the old truck we own. We got evicted. I realize that you may not be able to help us, but I thought I would call, anyway."

Besides the teenager and her parents there was a two-year old boy.

"Jinny, I said, I know that you and your mother--by the way, she was a very shy person with very little to say--and your baby brother come to church regularly. I also know that you have come to my classes on pneumatology about how we can work with the power of God, which is in through and around us, to get things done and moving in our lives.

Before I say anything else, will you agree, in harmony with me and my family, to tune in, that is, to connect with, the Holy Spirit (Pneuma) of God and make the positive affirmation that we will be guided as to the best way to handle this problem."

Her immediate response was, "Yes!"

Now, put your mother on the line. I asked the mother to do the same thing that I asked her daughter to do. Like her daughter she, immediately, agreed.

Then I asked: "Is your husband near?"

"Yes" she said, "He's across the road loading the truck. But he is not interested in God, or the church. He is kind of bitter about such things."

When she told me that he was within shouting distance I said, "Tell him I would really like to speak to him, just for a minute or two and for the sake of his children. Tell him that I promise not to preach at him."

When he came to the phone I told him about what his wife, his daughter, and the Kings, agreed to do. Then I asked him if he would join in.

His immediate response was: "I would feel like a fool if I prayed to a God...not believing in his existence."

"I understand" I said. "But I am not asking you to belive in a god, out there, or up there, who hears and answers prayers as if he were a Santa Claus.

Instead, I want you to imagine, or even pretend, that I have access to a super computer which is programmed to answer any rational question you and I are prepared to ask, and with a rational answer. Would you be willing to make use of such a computer?"

"If it were true, I would be a fool to refuse. Okay, I will play your pretend game."

Then I said, "When you have finished loading your stuff. Drive over to the church and I will meet you, there, in about fifty minutes, or so. There, we have a good kitchen. Bring any food you have. There is also a room, there, which you can use for the week-end, at least.

This will give us time to figure out the next move. I will speak to the social services people on Monday. Meanwhile, with the rest of the family, and my family, visualize that we will get the help we need. I will leave from here in about thirty minutes.

Just as I was about to leave to drive over to the church the phone rang. It was the unemployed trucker.

"Mr. King. I am glad I caught you before you left. About fifteen minutes after we spoke, just as I was putting the last few items on my truck, I remembered the name and number of a friend I haven't seen since he moved out of the city. He lives on his small farm--he is also was into trucking. He lives about ninety minutes drive out of the city. Years ago, we were good buddies and I did him a favour, more than once. I phoned him and told him my problem.

"His immediate response was: Come on out. I have space for you and your family. As a matter of fact I was wondering where you were. I am now in the position where I need a good reliable person. Do you still have you truckers license."

Even I was amazed at how quickly things came together. And this is not an isolated incident.
"In all things, God works together for good..." as Paul put.
=========================0000000000000=======================
_________________
Unitheism--a doublet for panentheism--thinks of GØD as all pervasive, inter-penetrating all that IS--body, mind, spirit. GØD is Love=goodness, order, openness, and design, direction and dedication.
=============================
BTW, I wonder if humane atheists ever make use of this all pervasive consciousness, which I call, GØD?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#26395 - 06/04/08 08:23 PM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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"Perhaps if there were no religions it would be ..." Ellis, as I said already, I am sure you realize you are dreaming, in colour, eh?

Just today, I heard Charlie Rose--He has a daily interview program on American public TV--interview George Will, the well-respected writer, Republican and commentator on the political economy.

THE PLACE OF RELIGION AND ETHNICITY
===================================
He said that, in any society, there are two persistent sacred qualities which most human beings hold to, openly and otherwise: their religion and their ethnicity.

He made the point: Most people, for better or for worse, want to, and do, stick with their religion (their way of life) and their ethos (their character).

In my opinion, it is possible to develop a more enlightened-and-accepting kind of open-approach to religion. It is possible to agree to disagree agreeably--and to cultivate a positive mental attitude towards all ethnic groups, including humane people who choose to avoid all formal religion--agnostics and atheists.


Edited by Revlgking (06/04/08 09:06 PM)
Edit Reason: New ideas.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#26405 - 06/05/08 05:31 AM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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By ethnicity do you mean character? I had always thought that ethnicity was a person's culture or tradition-- and it is often used to denote a racial group. I have never heard the term applied to the characteristic of individual character before.

However I do not agree with Mr Rose (or was it Mr Will). The statement as quoted presupposes that everyone believes in god, or at the very least subscribes to a religion, and that's not so. As you can see I hope that one day religion will not be important enough to cause wars. That's any religion and any wars! With divisive statements like those of Mr Rose and/or Mr Will You can certainly see why.

I am cheered they left me with my ethos-- whatever may be meant by that term. I have explained before-- It is possible to be a nice person who is basically kind, gentle and loving, and an atheist. ( NO- not me-- but the really nice person I am married to!)

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#26406 - 06/05/08 10:41 AM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis: Here is what Dictionary.com says:
eth·nic·i·ty (th-ns-t)

n.
1. Ethnic character, background, or affiliation.
2. An ethnic group.
Noun 1. ethnicity - an ethnic quality or affiliation resulting from racial or cultural ties; "ethnicity has a strong influence on community status relations"
quality - an essential and distinguishing attribute of something or someone; "the quality of mercy is not strained"--Shakespeare
==========================================================

e·thos (ths)
n.
The disposition, character, or fundamental values peculiar to a specific person, people, culture, or movement: "They cultivated a subversive alternative ethos" Anthony Burgess.
=======================
I guess our character is formed by our ethos.

Ellis, how come you are NOT an atheist? I presume you NOT are active in any religion. Were you ever? And if not now, what caused you to quit?

Keep in mind that I respect humane atheists? If they live lives which are of service to humanity, I call that religion, just not the formalized kind.

BTW, keep in mind that the early Christians were persecuted as atheists. Jesus was accused of not accepting, without question, the concept of the Old Testament God--Jehovah, or YHWH. Check John 10, where he accused of thinking of himself as 'god'.
If there is no "God", are not atheists assuming the character of a god?

Me? I think of the whole collectivity, all that is, as GOD, in the process of becoming.
CENTER FOR PROCESS STUDIES
http://www.ctr4process.org/relationality/viewtopic.php?t=119
==================
One poster writes about panentheism--what I call unitheism:
===================================
I thought I'd alert this group to a great new collection of essays edited by Philip Clayton and Arthur Peacocke. The collection is titled, In Whom We Live and Move and Have Our Being: Panentheistic Reflections on God's Presence in a Scientific World (Eerdmans 2004). Process essayists include David Griffin, Joseph Bracken, and, of course, Philip Clayton.

One of my favorite essays is written by Michael Brierly titled, "Naming a Quiet Revolution: The Panentheistic Turn in Modern Theology." This essay basically lays out the issues of panentheism, and it draws upon a wealth of historical sources when doing so. Clayton's summary essay and Griffin's Panenetheism as Postmodern Revelation are also quite strong.



Edited by Revlgking (06/05/08 10:55 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#26412 - 06/06/08 12:06 AM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Correcting some of the bad syntax, above:
Quote:
Ellis, you say that you are not an atheist, right? How come?

I presume that you are NOT, now, active in any formal religion. Were you ever active? If not, what caused you to quit being a formal church member?

Check John 10, where Jesus was accused of thinking of himself as 'god'.
Unless I miss my guess, Jesus taught that, if we choose, we can be god-like, like him.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#26418 - 06/06/08 05:43 AM Re: Reinventing the Sacred [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Sorry Rev you misunderstood me. I do not believe that there is a god or that I could ever, therefore, be godlike. If I was spectacularly decent, loving, kind and just generally someone people sought out to confide in (or whatever would qualify me in your eyes to be godlike) I would just regard myself as an especially nice human being. Or more likely, since I would have to include humility as a desirable characteristic, I would keep plodding on to be the best human I could!

I was brought up within a lukewarm religious atmosphere and never found the whole thing convincing- though I do like the music, architecture and traditions of the Church of England, actually the music and etc of most religions is enjoyable. I just don't believe in the god part, I never did,-and it seems to me that it is essential to believe in the existence of the divine- however it is defined- in order to be religious. I also do not think that service to humanity is a religion. I think it is service to humanity.


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