Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Climate Change Forum The Mystery of Global Warming's Missing Heat

Paul, I followed through this and, while there are places where it's awkward to understand, I think technically this all stands up. I can see why Canuk interpreted your writing the way he did, though.

As to the magnitude of the effects that you wonder about, I'd think these would be dwarfed by some of the main climate/anthro- forcers and influences.

Samwik

as of 2008 the world oil consumption is at 76 million barrels per day.

1 barrel = 48 gallons
that equals 3.684 billion gallons per day.
1.344 trillion gallons per year
310 trillion cubic inches per year
179 billion cu ft per year
1 cubic mile
5280 ft x 5280 ft x 5280 ft = 147,197,952,000 cu ft
current world oil consumption = 1.216 cu miles per year
I believe I read that the water flooding method is used apx 95% of the time so you can estimate that there is apx 1.15 cu miles of water going into the oil wells per year.
also you can estimate that an area of 63,360 sq miles at a depth of 1 inch per year is being removed from the picture when the picture is sea level rise.

in the ballpark..

..............................................

and now the 10,800 cu kilometers = 6,696 cu miles

Earth's Diameter at the Equator: 7926.28 miles
Approximately 79% of the Earth's surface
(an area of some 140 million square miles)
is covered by ocean.
6,696 cu miles x 5280 ft x 12" = 424,258,560
so they have dropped the sea level by 3.02 inches storing water.
or a sq mile all the way through the earth just above the equator.
thats a lot of stored water !!!

water is cyclic if they store that much water it can be said that the water came from the ocean , because it was not allowed to flow into the oceans.

..............................................

we dont see all this as a sea level decrease , why?
maybe they dont want us to...
maybe its thermal expansion , if its thermal expansion then they are setting us up for the biggest methane release since the one that ended the last ice age...
water expanded still presents the same pressure to the methane ice...
if water is removed it might look the same but it weighs less.
every year were getting closer and closer to a release.
and large methane releases trigger other releases.
it dominoes.

of course as it stands there are several reasons that there is not much thermal expansion today , but what happens when the ice stops melting and the magma stops cooling , and the waters begin to heat up?
it might be better to lose some shore line than to keep covering up the rising sea levels.

Samwik: thanks
BTW: 1 cu mile of fresh water only weighs 9.1 gigga tonnes.
and there is supposed to be apx 300 gigga tonnes melting each year?
thats 32 cu miles of water per year.
or 2,027,520 sq miles 1 inch high.

Paul,
What if the water in the bowl was the same temperature as the East and West Greenland Currents? (0°Celsius and colder) Would Greenland’s melting ice water lower, or raise the temperature of the water in the bowl?

Let's use the real world. What would cool the oceans more?

1. A little bit of ice melt runoff into the frigid East and West Greenland Currents during the summer months when the sun is heating the oceans in the northern hemisphere.
2. The hundreds of miles of icebergs and sea ice flowing from the Arctic for the rest of the year, with less solar energy warming the oceans.

Let's use the real world

How could last years melting of Greenland or the Arctic explain the cooling of the oceans that started in 2003?

People should take note.

thats 32 cu miles of water per year.
or 2,027,520 sq miles 1 inch high.

..............................................

and now the 10,800 cu kilometers = 6,696 cu miles

Earth's Diameter at the Equator: 7926.28 miles
Approximately 79% of the Earth's surface
(an area of some 140 million square miles)
is covered by ocean.
6,696 cu miles x 5280 ft x 12" = 424,258,560
so they have dropped the sea level by 3.02 inches storing water.
or a sq mile all the way through the earth just above the equator.
thats a lot of stored water !!!

water is cyclic if they store that much water it can be said that the water came from the ocean , because it was not allowed to flow into the oceans.

..............................................

..............................................

and now the 10,800 cu kilometers = 2,591.057 cu miles

Earth's Diameter at the Equator: 7926.28 miles
Approximately 79% of the Earth's surface
(an area of some 140 million square miles)
is covered by ocean.
2,591 cu miles x 5280 ft x 12" = 164,165,760 sq miles

using the 140,000,000 sq miles of oceans area.

stored water / area of oceans = 1.17 inches
so they have dropped the sea level by 1.17 inches storing water.

thats a lot of stored water !!!

water is cyclic if they store that much water it can be said that the water came from the ocean , because it was not allowed to flow into the oceans.

..............................................

Can't we use that figure directly and then compare the ~1 or 2 cu.km. of oil displacement to the ~11,000 cu.km in reservoirs.

Exploratory wells require approximately 15 million gallons of water per well

end=ergy....
...save that typo, it seems appropriate....

The slight cooling of the oceans would still be enough to account for any lack of water level rise.

Where did the heat of the oceans go?

This thread has gone from the sublime to the ridiculous. Lets get some geoloical fact straight.
1) Continental crust has a thickness of ~30km (up to 70km in orogenic zones). Oceanic crust has a thickness of 10km. Yes thats 10km !!!

2) There is no 'liquid' magma under the earths crust : There is the "mantle" which is a solid - (although it has a rheology more like a liquid due to the high P and T). It is comprised mainly of a material called peridotite (mainly of the mafic minerals of olivine and pyroxene)

3) In places, due to "upwelling" of the mantle, there is a process called "fractional melting", related to phase changes (as the P decreases but T doesn't) which produces a liquid commonly called magma. Under oceanic crusts, such upwelling occurs in plumes (like Hawaii or Iceland) or under Mid Ocean Ridges (MOR). The magma generated eventually escapes through the crust to the surface where it cools and forms a rock called basalt.

4)As an aside, the amount of magma produced at MOR's is the major driver (over geological timescales) for sea levels. This is why, during the Cretaceous period, when the Atlantic was opening so fast with massive volumes of mid ocean ridge basalts being produced, sea levels were 500m higher than today.

Some of the commentary above is so random and knowledgeless that it reminds me of the saying that if you leave a monkey with a keyboard for long enough, eventually you will get the entire works of Shakespeare. Eventually.

The earth's crust is thinnest at the bottom of the ocean.

It has been like that for a long time.

Magma will not suddenly cool over 5 years

Konrad Steffen arrived on the Greenland Ice Sheet for the 2002 summer fieldwork season and immediately observed that something significant was happening in the Arctic. Pools of water already spotted the ice surface, and melting was occurring where it never had before. “That year the melt was so early and so intense — it really jumped out at me. I’d never seen the seasonal melt occur that high on the ice sheet before, and it had never started so early in the spring,” said Steffen, principal scientist and interim director at the Cooperative Institute for Research in Environmental Sciences (CIRES) at the University of Colorado.

By the end of the 2002 season, the total area of surface melt on the Greenland Ice Sheet had broken all known records. That same summer, Mark Serreze and his colleagues at the National Snow and Ice Data Center in Boulder, Colorado, began noticing unusually low levels of sea ice in the Arctic, based on remote sensing data. “I was really surprised by the change,” Serreze said. “By the end of the summer, sea ice levels in the Arctic were the lowest in decades and possibly the lowest in several centuries.”

Seasonal melt areas on the Greenland Ice Sheet are generally located along the edges of the ice sheet at its lowest points. In 2002, however, the melt started unusually early and progressed higher up the ice sheet than at any time in the past 24 years. Surface melting extended up to 6,560 feet (2,000 meters) in elevation in the northeast portion of the island, where temperatures normally are too cold for melting to occur. In addition, the total melt area covered 265,000 square miles (686,350 square kilometers), representing a 16 percent increase above the maximum melt area measured in the past 24 years.

Serreze’s team coincidentally discovered that in September 2002, Arctic sea ice extent was approximately 400,000 square miles (1.04 million square kilometers) less than the long-term average of 2.4 million square miles (6.2 million square kilometers), and that much of the remaining sea ice was unusually thin and spread out.

It is very unlikely that the 20th-century warming can be explained by natural causes. The late 20th century has been unusually warm.

In terms of the underlying rates of change, the warming of the late 20th century appears to be no more “unusual” than the warming during the 1920’s and 1930’s. Both appear to have their origin in a solar cycle phenomenon in which the sinusoidal pattern in the underlying smoothed trend is modulated so that annual rates of change remain strongly positive for the duration of the third cycle, with the source of this third cycle modulation perhaps related to long term trends in oceanic oscillations. It is purely speculative, of course, but if this 66 year pattern (3 Hale cycles) repeats itself, we should see a long descent into negative territory where the underlying smoothed trend has a negative rate of change, i.e. a period of cooling like that experienced in the late 1800’s and then again midway through the 20th century.

Greenland appears to be floating upwards – its landmass is rising up to 4 centimetres each year, scientists reveal.

And the large country's new-found buoyancy is a symptom of Greenland's shrinking ice cap, they add.

"The Earth is elastic and if you put a load on top of it, then the surface will move down; if you remove the load, then the surface will start rising again," explains Shfaqat Khan of the Danish National Space Center in Copenhagen.

Pressure relief melting - very important!

Magma occupies more space than rock does

Therefore, in order to melt, the rock needs room to expand

This may not be possible where the pressure is too great

That's why the interior of the earth is probably not liquid

A reduction in pressure can cause local melting of rock to form magma

allowing the ocean to cool.

if the ocean does cool,

it would be the area just by the ocean floor that was not monitored.

Quite honestly, you have to wonder about some people's mental stability

This thread has gone from the sublime....
Under oceanic crusts, such upwelling occurs in plumes (like Hawaii or Iceland) or under Mid Ocean Ridges (MOR). The magma generated eventually escapes through the crust to the surface where it cools and forms a rock called basalt.

4)As an aside, the amount of magma produced at MOR's is the major driver (over geological timescales) for sea levels. This is why, during the Cretaceous period, when the Atlantic was opening so fast with massive volumes of mid ocean ridge basalts being produced, sea levels were 500m higher than today.

Some of the commentary above is so random and knowledgeless that it reminds me of the saying that if you leave a monkey with a keyboard for long enough, eventually you will get the entire works of Shakespeare. Eventually.