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#26219 - 05/26/08 01:34 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: redewenur]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Hello Armaranth,

the happy thought to think would be that a species that could "jump" space freely would (assuming that's how they would do it) also have a respect for life present on other planets.

But, there is always the possiblity they could arrive like the Spanish in south america - and bring greed and disease- the disese not being intentional.

It is one thing to try to communicate with someone that lives on another continent. It is another to communicate and deal with a being that don't look like you and lives light years away.

best regards,
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#26221 - 05/26/08 02:30 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: redewenur]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Hello redewenur,

you said:

"With the advent of intelligence comes the development of sophisticated behaviour and methods of enhancing the environment to achieve the survival goal. Information, therefore, becomes very important to survival and development, so it would be illogical to destroy a source of information unless failure to do so posed a sufficiently serious threat, or represented an overall disadvantage to the species."

Again I will be the devil's advocate- again we are assuming what is intelligence is, and assuming their belief systems are comparable to ours. The question to ask would be how did their beliefs evolve and what interacted with their development to make them what they are? Perhaps they don't want to destroy, but change things a little, to see what would happen if.....
Perhaps their desire to learn is their religion. Just a thought,and if this were so,for the sake of conversation merely fictional, how would you have a dialogue with this kind of being?

best regards,
odin1


_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#26223 - 05/26/08 04:09 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: odin1]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Hi, odin1 - so many interesting points!

"we are assuming what is intelligence is..."

- Many have questioned the nature of intelligence, and it could be a suitable topic for another thread. For the purposes of this thread, I'm assuming a simple definition:

a. The faculty of thought and reason
b. The capacity to acquire and apply knowledge

"...and assuming their belief systems are comparable to ours."

- So far, I've taken the optimistic view that an advanced technological civilisation, which has successfully endured for at least many millenia, is necessarily rational, and would not hold beliefs systems comparable to those that predominate among contemporary humankind.

"Perhaps their desire to learn is their religion..."

- I take 'religion' to mean an institutionalized system of beliefs relating to the supernatural. So, I also take it that you are proposing an alien race that regards all knowledge as being of supernatural origin, and therefore 'holy'. In that case, such a race may perhaps have a 'Priesthood of Science and Technology' consisting of scientists of the highest rank. Learning would then be not only a useful occupation, but also a moral and religious duty.

"...and if this were so, for the sake of conversation merely fictional, how would you have a dialogue with this kind of being?"

- In this respect, it may be a great deal easier than it is for humans of different religions to dialogue with each other.

Regarding your earlier question -

"The question to ask would be how did their beliefs evolve and what interacted with their development to make them what they are?"

- I think the several thousand years - or possibly much longer - of (a) reaping the benefits of the scientific method, and (b) observing the unfolding of the beauties of the universe, would probably account for the evolution of their beliefs. I'm not quite clear about the second half of the question - could you expand on it?

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#26225 - 05/26/08 06:27 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: redewenur]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Odin1,
There is of course the disease factor. What new and exotic plagues could result from first contact with space aliens, must give us pause. It's true that the Spaniards brought more than religion to the Americas. Religion was bad enough, for in its sake all manner of culture was destroyed. The Incas and Aztecs had written languages and traditions which the church suppressed and destroyed in the name of religion. How might we respond to an extraterrestrial who insisted on us converting to their religion? Conversely, what would we give up in order to know the secret of living longer, say to 200 years of age instead of the 100 we now accept as the general limit? Would ET care about our concerns in this regard? What if ET is a giant squid which communicates with others by changing color and pattern, and does not consider our written language to be of any use? I'm not so sure I want to meet ET, for I think he/she/it will be far more different than similar to us.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#26226 - 05/26/08 07:21 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
And Amaranth,

Suppose what we were offered as a tradeout really turned out to be an experiment for their purpose, as I mentioned to redewenur, suppose their religion was "learning" without regard to what they considered to be just another life form.

best regards,
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#26227 - 05/26/08 07:33 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: odin1]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Hello redewener,

Sure, say for instance their species had suffered staggering loss of life due to war, a terrible plague, even possibly an interaction with another species that altered the course of their normal developement. Possibly to a degree that a survival "gene" kicked in and took something out of their psyche that seemed irrelevent to them anymore. I use the term "religion" as a metaphor to the importance they have placed theirselves and their work.

You are right maybe another thread should be started on intelligence.

best regards,
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#26233 - 05/27/08 02:21 AM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: odin1]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
odin1

So, instead of learning having literally become a religion, it filled the psychological void once occupied by religion.

Let's check out the rest of the scenario:

(a) Religion was once part of their normal cultural development
(b) Religion was abandoned
(c) The absence of religion represented a psychological deficit to their survival capabilities
(d) To compensate for the deficit, they devoted themselves to learning

The question you've raised is: "What could have caused them to abandon their religion?"

Is that right so far?

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#26235 - 05/27/08 03:09 AM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: redewenur]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
No, religion may not even be in their vocabulary. That could not be a concept to them. Suppose they actually have no home planet because of war, disese or maybe they ruined their environment. They could be nomads, putting up small settlements in different places and over time since they have no concept of a governing power in the universe other than themselves.

Their survival fuels the need for the "learning"..
They don't learn because they are intersted, they learn because it is a stepping stone to the next need, for their survival. The survival of the group, colony whatever dictates their actions.

best regards,
odin1

_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#26236 - 05/27/08 03:36 AM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: odin1]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
odin1

That's a very desolate scenario. Home planet uninhabitable. No interest in learning, but compelled to learn in order to survive. I think they could quite easily manage without a concept of a universal governing power. But...no joy; no sense of mystery, awe and wonder. I can think of no reason why these beings would wish to exist. I'm surprised that they bother. I would feel sympathy for these creatures, but it seems to me that they are nothing more than von Neumann automatons, devoid of any function resembling emotion, and therefore dead to any sense of purpose.

- - -

Rose: "There is of course the disease factor. What new and exotic plagues could result from first contact with space aliens, must give us pause."

- But then if, as you suppose likely, they aren't DNA based, then there should be no risk. H. G. Wells' Martians would appear to have had no such good fortune.

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#26252 - 05/27/08 04:11 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: redewenur]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
That is my point, we always assume our thought is universal. Even if you are from a different country on planet earth or speak another language the thought process can be different. Even jokes, what is funny to me may offend or not have the effect it would on someone living and speaking in entirely different stimuli. Believe me I have stuck my foot in my mouth before being insensitive to the thoughts of someone just on the other side of the world, and did it without any will to do so.

I know of no written rules that say every species in the universe share the same logic as we do. How would you define "logic"?

best regards,
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#26259 - 05/27/08 06:36 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: odin1]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
odin1

Logic is a system of reasoning; in discussing the philosophy of logic, I would be out of my depth, but I'll venture to suggest that if you're endowing your aliens with minds that defy logic as we understand it, then any question regarding their rationale, motives or behaviour becomes unanswerable.

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#26262 - 05/27/08 07:13 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: redewenur]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Exactly,

Could you have just answered the question:

why would the governments of the free world withhold information or proof of ET?

If the logic between two species are different, how can you come to any agreement or explain to the populus that they will be under no threat from the visitors. Much like Hitler, he would sign anything, it meant nothing to him. The end justified the means and he was human. You would call him a liar, but what would you call ET, if there were only his truths, no lies?

This is a test redewenur--you will be graded on this.

best regards,
odin1








Edited by odin1 (05/27/08 07:14 PM)
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#26263 - 05/27/08 07:29 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: odin1]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Tut-tut. You're making me think. I'll find some way to make you pay for your crimes.

I'll backtrack! Logic is logic. It's the basis of the logic that differs. It's about psychology. The alien logic can be comprehended only when their psychology is understood. So, I would rephrase your question:

"If the logic between two species are different..." >>> If the alien psychology cannot be understood...

adding "...then any question regarding their rationale, motives or behaviour becomes unanswerable."

And look, if I don't make the grade, I expect a consolation prize for effort.

P.S. - There's the additional question: Who would you be most likely to believe - the aliens, or the politicians?!

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#26265 - 05/27/08 07:50 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: redewenur]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
You will recieve the "Science A GoGo consolation prize for effort"

odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#26273 - 05/28/08 04:05 AM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: odin1]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
I didn't see your second question but that one is easy.

I would believe the aliens.
After all anyone that will let Santa snowski on their property can't be all bad.

best regards,
odin1

_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#28103 - 10/21/08 12:01 AM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: Mike Kremer]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
A second release of UFO files opened by the UK Goverment
the other day.
This includes the highly publizised May 20th 1957 Report, of a aircraft carrier size UFo chased by UK and US pilots

http://www.ufo-blog.com/ufo-blog/2008/10/national-archives-second-release-of-mod.html

The 1991 Al Italia passenger jet buzzed, seen by all crew and passengers
(I cant find this, but believe its somewhere in below?)

http://ufos.nationalarchives.gov.uk/

Plus the recent few frames Video, of a supposed UFO that (may have been watching?) the French Jet Man. who built and flew his home made 'strap on' jet from 'model shop parts' and flew across the English Channel last week.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/ufos/article1750516.ece
***
Hohum. the above for believers only, with sharp eyesight.


_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#29123 - 01/09/09 04:53 AM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: Mike Kremer]
qraal Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 9
The discussion of xeno-psychology is interesting. Robert Freitas discussed the issues in a number of articles in the early 1980s...

“Xenopsychology,” Analog 104(April 1984):41-53
http://www.rfreitas.com/Astro/Xenopsychology.htm

plus a good one on xenobiology...

“Xenobiology,” Analog 101(30 March 1981):30-41
http://www.xenology.info/Papers/Xenobiology.htm

...surprisingly not as dated as you might think. Freitas also argued strongly against the skeptics who believed there were no signs of ETs in our Solar System, therefore They didn't exist. He rightly pointed out the current search was incomplete - and it still is. Now it's even more complicated because we know a lot more about optics and making things invisible - at least in theory.

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#29124 - 01/09/09 07:03 AM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: qraal]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
qraal

Many thanks for the links. Scanned them briefly, and will read through them. Very interesting indeed.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#29127 - 01/09/09 05:56 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: redewenur]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Thanks for the links, qraal. Very interesting material there. I bookmarked it for future reference for my Sci-Fi writing.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#29128 - 01/09/09 10:20 PM Re: UK Opens its UFO Files [Re: qraal]
Iztaci Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Rocky Mt. West
graal;

Just echoing the thanks you're getting from the others. This material is just simply the most interesting I've seen in many moons. I hope it generates some discussion soon.

Many thanks.
_________________________
When you talk to me like I'm five, I want to write on you with a crayon. -- Joanna Hoffman

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