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#26212 - 05/26/08 03:27 AM Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/phoenix_mars

We made it! Now to see if there is evidence of life.
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If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#26220 - 05/26/08 01:59 PM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Amaranth,

wouldn't it be great if a herd of caribou ran in front of the camera?

best regards,
odin1
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People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#26224 - 05/26/08 05:54 PM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: odin1]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Actually I'm hoping for some little green men to come popping out of a hole in the ground to investigate the new addition to their lawn.

Actually I'm hoping for some evidence of life, mostly microbial. It shouldn't be too hard to find some complex organic material if they are looking for it. We have bacteria here on Earth that survive in extreme conditions. Why not Mars?

But, yes, a herd of caribou would be nice. And funny.
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#26228 - 05/26/08 08:08 PM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Amaranth,

could you see the look on their face if a little green man skied right by the camera?

I think they will find somekind of life, perhaps even algae or lichen. I think the red planet has many tales to tell. I'm looking forward to hearing and seeing them.

best regards,
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#26269 - 05/27/08 09:36 PM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: odin1]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Hi Amaranth, odin1, and others.

Ancient Bacterial Microbes that have remained dormant though cryopreservation for thousands, prehaps millions of years, have been found deep in Antartican ice, by the Russians.
The following four "Earthly types" that can survive in extreme cold, or without oxygen, have all been found, revived, and able to resume their normal metabolic activity.
Beauveria bassiana,-Archaea,-M.burtonnii,-and a Penicillium bacteria. As well as other yeast and fungi.

My thoughts are:- Ancient cryopreserved Earth Microbes are one thing.
But just what might the implications be, ....if the same Microbes were found under the frozen Martian soil?

Microbic pictures.
http://science.nasa.gov/newhome/headlines/ast12mar98_1.htm
_________________________
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#26270 - 05/27/08 10:30 PM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: Mike Kremer]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Hey Mike,

I think we are going to be surprised, or perhaps assured may be a better word. Mars may not be as dead as we thought.

best regards,
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#26303 - 05/29/08 08:29 PM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: odin1]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
I think Mars is dead and will be an expensive yet important mission in learing what we will need to colonize a proper planet like Venus

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#26308 - 05/30/08 02:02 AM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: Rallem]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Rallem
I think Mars is dead and will be an expensive yet important mission in learing what we will need to colonize a proper planet like Venus

[Reply by Mike Kremer]

No, I think NASA are doing the right thing by preparing for a future manned landing on Mars.
Venus has a very dense Carbon Dioxide atmosphere, Sulphuric acid clouds, no Magnetic Poles, very hot, and no water, according to Wiki.
I'd bet that Phoenix does find some earth-like bacteria under the soil. Earthlike because they were probably ejected by ancient earth Volcanoes? Or prehaps a hint that they came in from slushy meteorites, when Mars had an ocean.
If that last sentence is true, -it could mean that the DNA "molecule of life" is present throughout the Universe?
Comment and implication of that?
Its even possible that Mars might have some pockets of water hidden deep within its crust?
I'm very optimistic that positive indicators of life will be found, within the next 4 months.




Edited by Mike Kremer (05/30/08 02:03 AM)
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#26312 - 05/30/08 03:54 AM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: Rallem]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Rallem
I think Mars is dead and will be an expensive yet important mission in learing what we will need to colonize a proper planet like Venus

Couldn't agree with that, Rallem. In what way do you see Venus as a 'proper' planet and Mars (I suppose) as an improper planet? As Mike points out, Venus is just too herrendously hostile. The first major success of this mission would be the confirmation of subsurface ice. The next would be finding organic molecules in the ice - although that wouldn't necessarily be evidence that there was ever life on Mars.
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"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#26320 - 05/30/08 06:45 AM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: redewenur]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Would finding life there on Mars make a big change in our plans to colonize?
confused
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Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#26357 - 06/02/08 02:35 AM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: samwik]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: samwik
Would finding life there on Mars make a big change in our plans to colonize?
confused


Reply Mike Kremer

The US plans for colonisation is fixed for around 2020, but if Water/Life is found, I expect, Russia, China,
and Europe will take notice and act.
There has been talk that there is a lot of salt on the surface of Mars. Which may mean that common Earth like microbes as we know them might not be found. Since salt is used as a preservative in our foods.

My thoughts upon this is that, salt, by lowering the freezing point for Microbes might well keep them mobile until the Martian sun returns, to thaw? Remember, there is microbiotic life in our 'Dead Sea'

Below is the latest Phoenix photo showing raw Ice underneath Phoenix!!
Exposed by the retro rockets blowing away the thin top soil.
http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA10741
Lets all stay optimistic

_________________________
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#26359 - 06/02/08 06:44 AM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: samwik]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: samwik
Would finding life there on Mars make a big change in our plans to colonize?
confused

It's my guess that, while finding microscopic life on Mars would be a major historic event, it would have little or no positive impact on colonisation plans.

On the other hand...access to water, in sufficient quantities for long term use, would surely be an enormous boost to colonisation plans. You can't do much without water, and you can do a great deal with it.

Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
Below is the latest Phoenix photo showing raw Ice underneath Phoenix!!

Is it ice, or is it rock? We'll have to wait for more data.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#26366 - 06/02/08 06:51 PM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: redewenur]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
Originally Posted By: redewenur
Originally Posted By: Rallem
I think Mars is dead and will be an expensive yet important mission in learing what we will need to colonize a proper planet like Venus

Couldn't agree with that, Rallem. In what way do you see Venus as a 'proper' planet and Mars (I suppose) as an improper planet? As Mike points out, Venus is just too herrendously hostile. The first major success of this mission would be the confirmation of subsurface ice. The next would be finding organic molecules in the ice - although that wouldn't necessarily be evidence that there was ever life on Mars.


The reason I believe Venus is a proper planet for colonization and Mars is not is that Venus can have a magnetic field if a fast enough rotation were introduced to it. (In theory anyways) The question is, if we could introduce a spin onto Venus, should we make it turn clockwise like the other planets or counter clockwise like it already has a slow rotation? I know the atmosphere of Venus is terribly hostile, but I think the only way to add such a rotation would be to throw a comet almost the size of Mars at it, and if we could ever figure out how to do that I think the comet would force most of the existing atmosphere of Venus into space and hopefully replace it with a hydrogen/nitrogen atmosphere.

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#26367 - 06/02/08 09:51 PM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: Mike Kremer]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
Originally Posted By: Rallem
I think Mars is dead and will be an expensive yet important mission in learing what we will need to colonize a proper planet like Venus

[Reply by Mike Kremer]

No, I think NASA are doing the right thing by preparing for a future manned landing on Mars.
Venus has a very dense Carbon Dioxide atmosphere, Sulphuric acid clouds, no Magnetic Poles, very hot, and no water, according to Wiki.
I'd bet that Phoenix does find some earth-like bacteria under the soil. Earthlike because they were probably ejected by ancient earth Volcanoes? Or prehaps a hint that they came in from slushy meteorites, when Mars had an ocean.
If that last sentence is true, -it could mean that the DNA "molecule of life" is present throughout the Universe?
Comment and implication of that?
Its even possible that Mars might have some pockets of water hidden deep within its crust?
I'm very optimistic that positive indicators of life will be found, within the next 4 months.




First off I do agree that Venus has too dense an atmosphere, but it does have a magnetic field which simply isn't strong enough to protect the atmosphere from the Sun's radiation. It is believed that the magnetic field of Venus can be strengthened if a fast enough rotation can be attained by Venus. A question I am asking myself is if we could add a spin to planet Venus by hurling comets at it, should we do so to add a faster spin to its already counter clockwise spin or should we try introducing a clockwise spin so Venus would have a similar spin to all of its sibling planets?

As far as the planet of Venus having too much atmospheric pressure of the wrong sorts gasses, I would have to say that I think, that if comets were flung at Venus to introduce a proper spin, it would probably also add huge amounts of hydrogen and nitrogen to Venusí atmosphere and possibly expel some of the carbon dioxide into outer space. I think that if the comets didnít expel the carbon dioxide into outer space though and it did add sufficient spin to the planet so that its magnetic field would protect the planetís atmosphere from further ravages of the Sun and that may help some. Also I think that if huge amounts of carbon dioxide remained then mankind could probably do something to mine that gas and use it somewhere else.

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#26588 - 06/12/08 04:08 PM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: Rallem]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK

Here is the latest picture of Martian ice taken underneath the Phoenix.
It certainly looks like ice. Possibly with its surface refrozen after having been melted by the retro-rocket?
Its a far far better picture in comparison with the one shown just 3 threads above this one.
Now if they can only get a tiny piece past the half opened door of the oven, we will know soon enough?


http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap080612.html

_________________________
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.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#26590 - 06/12/08 05:56 PM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: Mike Kremer]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Yes, that's a much more convincing picture. Now what was it they used to say back home?...Oh, yes - "suck it and see".
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#26777 - 06/20/08 09:16 PM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: redewenur]
Anonymous
Unregistered



Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


"It must be Martian ice" said Phoenix Principal Investigator Peter Smith, after the white lumps scooped up with the soil disappeared (sublimated or melted). They thought it could be salt, but salt dosn't melt.

****
It seems that ice is pretty hard, and the scoop can't cut into it. (Seems they did'nt think about that? They should have fitted the scoop with a sharp pick)

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/06_19_pr.php

Hopefully we will see some 'before and after' melt pictures soon




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#26779 - 06/21/08 12:57 AM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: Anonymous]
MikeBinOK Offline
Member

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 67
Loc: Oklahoma
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/newshour_index.html

As of this writing, at the page above you can download an audio file of a good interview with the lead scientist working on the ice issue. I saw it broadcast on the Jim Lehrer News Hour on PBS in the USA this evening (Friday) and it was well worth listening to. After Monday it may move into archives or something and you might have to hunt for it a bit (I believe the story title was "Ice on Mars", but you'll work it out!
_________________________
Mike B in OKlahoma

"Never confuse with malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."


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#26784 - 06/21/08 03:57 AM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: MikeBinOK]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: MikeBinOK
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/newshour_index.html

As of this writing, at the page above you can download an audio file of a good interview with the lead scientist working on the ice issue. I saw it broadcast on the Jim Lehrer News Hour on PBS in the USA this evening (Friday) and it was well worth listening to. After Monday it may move into archives or something and you might have to hunt for it a bit (I believe the story title was "Ice on Mars", but you'll work it out!


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


Thanks for that, MikeBinOK.
Had a horrible thought. NASA has'nt actually been able to drop this 'white ice' into Phoenix's oven yet, for the final proof of water.
What if its only frozen C02 Carbon Dioxide? That just evaporates away as well. Doh.



_________________________
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.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#26787 - 06/21/08 06:12 AM Re: Mars Landing for Phoenix Spacecraft [Re: Mike Kremer]
MikeBinOK Offline
Member

Registered: 06/30/07
Posts: 67
Loc: Oklahoma


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


Thanks for that, MikeBinOK.
Had a horrible thought. NASA has'nt actually been able to drop this 'white ice' into Phoenix's oven yet, for the final proof of water.
What if its only frozen C02 Carbon Dioxide? That just evaporates away as well. Doh.



This is the Martian Summer and the temperatures are too "hot" (even though they are far below freezing!) for carbon dioxide to exist in ice form. They're fairly sure it isn't carbon dioxide, and is water ice. Thank goodness!
_________________________
Mike B in OKlahoma

"Never confuse with malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence."


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