Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Not-Quite-Science Forum About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinking...

DEATH--Like birth, the universal experience. Here, I invite all of us to think about Death--mine, yours and that of others.

Here, let us dialogue about death--mine and yours. What comments and questions come to our minds?

For example, I want to ask: Because it is such a hard fact of life, is there such a thing as, "the study of, the science of, death? Is it a hard science or a soft one? What do you think?

A provisional opinion:

We can begin by stating that the causes of death and the processes of dying are well known, as are the differences between living and dead physical structures. To that extent it's hard science - and perhaps it's debatable that there is any other kind of science than hard science. No matter how sceptical one may be, it would be unscientific to say that death is indisputably and conclusively the end of one's existence simply on the grounds that, to date, there's no scientific proof to the contrary; any scientist will agree that knowledge is constantly being updated - they would hardly be doing science if they thought otherwise. Currently, however, claims to certain knowledge regarding anything else about death seem to be based either on interpretations of personal experience, or the conviction that various related theological teachings are correct. My own opinion concerning such knowledge is that (a) one's personal experience is of very high value, irrespective of how others may feel compelled to interpret it, (b) the personal experiences claimed by others, together with the theological teachings, carry no weight.

I have no doubt in my mind that we survive after physical death.
You want proof? I have none. Neither can anyone else prove to me there is not.

I believe conciousness is an energy, and energy cannot be destroyed, just changed. I find it hard to believe that we are all mistakes made by a primorial soup, from eons ago, a comet carrying DNA or proteins from another part of the galaxy. Evolution has more holes in it that swiss cheese, the fossil records don't add up there are too many gaps. I have looked at both arguments and have realized that some things can't be answered because -- lets face it folks-- right now we ain't smart enough! And some PHd's don't want to admit they are not God. I have really questioned the existance of a higher diety. I did some serious soul searching a while back. Now I find when you look at the science and fall back on religion they are ever more merging together.

I believe the moment I die a new existance will occur. In what form I don't know. There are all kinds of claims out there, spirts, mediums a lot of hocus pocus that proves nothing. I base my belief on faith and some elementary laws of physics. Right now this is the best I can do.

best regards,
odin1

From Odin Thanks for your gentle rant, Odin. What I hear you say, Odin, is: It takes a lot of blind faith to believe in nothing. Belief in something has both reason and faith on its side.

Hello Revlgking,

Hope you are well. Some things are just unexplainable right now.
Faith has it's place in our world just like therory's. Sometimes I think we (human race) get a little too big for our brithches. We put a man on the moon and think we have unlocked all the secrets of the universe. If we can't explain something - well oboviously it can't exist. Putting a man on the moon 100 years ago were considered the rantings of a lunatic. Who knows in the next 100 years what will be proven - by science. Some people will look really funny saying - there is absolutely no possiblity of life after death. And if it don't happen...well we will all know in due time for ourselves, and perhaps that is the way it was intended to be.

thanks for your post Rev.
best regards,
odin1

Here let me point out that I grew up as one to whom death was no stranger. As a consequence of the poverty in the early 1930's, I witnessed the deaths of my oldest brother, my sister, her husband and their two children and our mother, between 1932 and 1935. Our father died in 1944.

BTW, in the summer of 1942, as a 12 year old, I witnessed the sinking, by enemy submarines, of four iron-ore carriers, not far from where I lived http://www.bellisland.net Nearly 70 young merchant seamen lost their lives--all part of the five-year-long Battle of the Atlantic.

In stead of driving me to despair this motivated me to take a deep interested in what keeps us healthy, and makes for peace, not war. Because I got the opportunity to get a good education I feel it has made a difference and pointed me the way to better health, including economic justice and peace.

However, now as I rapidly close in on being an octogenarian I am well aware--especially as I read the obituary pages--of my own mortality; that I am at that stage when I could get the call to the next stage of being, or non being. But my goal is to age gracefully and to die, as they say, of natural causes and relatively healthy.

One of the things which I feel has helped me over the years is what I learned about stress and the best way to deal with stress it. Decades ago I came to the conclusion: Physical and mental stress are rooted in what I call the pneuma (the spirit). Stress has pneumatological roots.

Alright, to get the point I want to make try this: Visualize that, using a pump, you are blowing up a balloon. As it expands, you notice stretch marks appear on the surface of the balloon. If, to prevent it from bursting, you do nothing but apply physical patches to the stretch-marked areas, it doesn't take too much imagination to see that, eventually, the balloon will burst. Actually, just patching may even hasten the balloon's demise.

The solution. Get back to the source of the problem. Ask yourself: "What maximum pressure is the balloon designed to take? And, why am I doing this? What purpose is it that I am hoping to accomplish?

In my opinion, when it comes to total health we are not just somatological (physical) or animal-like beings, we are holistic ones. In addition to being physical beings, we are psychological (mental) and pneumatological (spiritual), humane-like, beings.

The best way I have ever heard death explained is this "death is part of life". We all have to die, or the body dies. The essence that makes odin and Revlgking or anyone else, in my humble opinion which is backed up with faith and some science continues on. Now, this varies with different religions. My faith tells me, I will go to heaven. My user name I use on this site is "odin" which was the norse god of war and knowledge. They believed you went to valhala and set around feasting, slapping women on the behind and drinking in the great hall till the final battle when all ends. That was the pagans heaven (not such a bad place!)but , seriously, every culture has believed in the existance of the soul. You and I have discussed before re-incarnation. I will not dispute it because it makes sense. I asked a minister one time this question.

"Will it not be boring setting in heaven day after day having your every need fulfilled?"

His reply was this:

"I believe that we all will have a duty to do in God's universe, tending to his business"

Something to think about.

best regards,'
odin1

Right on! Odin. I have no desire to rest in peace. Or does R.I.P. really mean ripped in pieces?

My goal is to have all the energy I need to get on doing all the things I would love to do.

BTW, when I was in Florida--my wife and I were there for about a month in March--I picked up some kind of a bug--I felt fatigued and had a dry tickle in my throat and a cough. My old feeling of energy is just now returning. Until recently, I have had to drag myself to get my spring gardening done. BTW, April was warm in Markham, Ontario. May is quite wet and cool--more like we expect April to be.

Posters: Tell us about your spring, and, unless it is a top secret, your health.

Hello Revlgking,

Spring here is real nice. The temp is about 80 degrees with a beautiful blue sky to look at. We had some rain last night. My health so far as I know is good. I take no medication, however I did have a terrible head cold for the past few days-but I used my secret formula for that. I am going to give this out and it works-it is an old remedy but completely natural.

moonshine
gingerale
honey
soft peppermint candy
slice of lemon

mix it all together, about 3/4 of inch in a coffee cup of moonshine or (white liquor)and the rest of the cup with the other ingredients. Heat it-drink it as hot as you can stand it and go to bed. You can't buy anything that will work better that this. I feel like a new man today--I can breath. But, I have no medical problems as I know, and had a checkup a few weeks ago. Other than being lazy, stupid and hard headed I'm Ok.

Thanks for asking Rev.

have a good day
odin1

Odin: Moonshine? You mean gin? or vodka? BTW, like you, so far I take no drugs.

I note that you live in North Carolina. Years ago, the Kings visited Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, several times.

Homemade moonshine-made from corn-the good stuff..............
It was given to me by a friend that makes some each year. I have had that quart for a year now. It's not a quart anymore. I use it for exactly what I described in my previous post. I am not a drinker-I like good wine occasionally with my meal a good wet wine. And a small juice glass before I go to bed occasionally. It is good for the arteries and helps in digestion. Vodka would probably do as well as moonshine.

I live about 40 minutes from Myrtle Beach.

best regards,
odin1

As birth is the start of life- death is the end. That's it. I don't believe in the Afterlife in any shape or form. Once you are dead, you've had your chance! However as I have mentioned before on this site I feel that we are remembered in the thoughts of our friends, and, if we have been fortunate enough to have children, in our family heritage. It is up to us to try to ensure that when our names are mentioned the reaction is a fond one and perhaps even a smile....But immortality of any other sort--- no!

Meantime though I have a few aches and pains--well who doesn't--- I am mostly doing well and keeping healthy! I can't wait to get a cold though to try out that amazing concoction of Anon's.

Hello Ellis,

That is my concoction you read about. I was not logged in when I posted it, sorry. But you really should try it, it works. You know cough medicine has alcohol in it anyway, and most other cold medicines you buy off the shelf. But, go to bed when you drink it--don't be fanning around.

best regards
Dr. Odin1

Ellis,

May I ask you a question?
This is in regard to your post.
You said:
"But immortality of any other sort--- no!"

I am curious and if you think its none of my business -then of course its not, but why do you believe there is no chance of an afterlife?

I'm just curious
best regards,
odin1

Ellis' creed about death: Ellis, I am assume you realize that this is a statement of your faith about the future. And no doubt your are aware that the majority of people believe otherwise--they believe that this one life is not all there is.

You add: "However, as I have mentioned before on this site, I feel that we are remembered in the thoughts of our friends, and, if we have been fortunate enough to have children, in our family heritage."

I am sure you realize that this kind of "belief" is very problematic. This means that for the millions who die before birth, or shortly thereafter, life is meaningless? Eventually, no lives will be remembered in any meaningful way.

IMO, Ellis is not an atheist; I would say he an anti-humanist; he just has no faith in the future of human evolution. I am sure that there must be atheists who are not nihilists.

Visualize the first Ellis-like person to evolve to the level when he recognized that he had this new talent of being conscious. I can imagine him saying: "So, now I have the talent to know that I know, and know when I do not know. What possible good can such a talent do for anyone?

I believe no life is meaningless in the sense you imply Rev. I can't understand the 'anti-humanist' thing at all. I am firmly in the camp of the evolutionists. Am I being anti-humanist if I agree with the Vatican that somewhere a species may exist as the result of evolution in their far-off world that appears superior in every way to we humans? I don't think so. Superiority should not inevitably lead to contempt anyway. And I am definitely not a nihilist!

I just don't believe we exist after we are dead. Not in any way, shape or form.

Are you being ironic Rev when you question the talent of knowledge? I hope so. Couldn't quite work that insult out!

PS I'm a "she"- as I've stated before.

Odin- I do not believe in the afterlife as I have no religious beliefs at all. I explained in another post after someone challenged me before as to why I feel like this. I think I always have. I had access to religious teaching as a child, but I questioned it. Then I had an incident where I was very ill and death was a possibility for both me and my newly born child. After it was all over- happily- I realised I had not thought once to pray or ask any god to help us. I made no bargains and gave thanks only to the splendid human medicos who saved us. I wondered why, and I realised I thought that praying was useless as there was no one there. I was near death and felt no divinity near at all, and, very importantly, I do not miss it.

Now I don't expect others to feel the same. I do not jeer at faith and belief. I do sometimes say it is irrational, because I think it is. But that is no reason to stop believing for many people and they get comfort from their beliefs. I just don't share them though.

Luckily I live in a country that does not require one to have a faith eg politicians are not asked their religious beliefs and can be non-religious and still get elected. I am not at all unusual here, neither am I unhappy and or 'searching for meaning in my life'.

...the value of knowing what you do not know. -hmmmmmm

...meanwhile....

Wow, this is getting complicated....
Revl. your assumption means that an after-life is necessary for the evolution of humanity, IMO. Is this right?
I'd think that the idea that "this is all there is" isn't necessarily nihilistic, but could make humanity (and it's evolution) that much more significant.
...

I like the idea of some existence after life, but I wouldn't call it "an after-life" life; just some sort of existence as awareness, ...but not self-awareness.

What I always wonder about is "the before-life" life or existence/awareness; which I think must also be real, if the "after-life" is real.

Think about it. Do you have any vague memories of why it seemed right to be borne in this place and time?
...

Thanks for the reply Ellis,

I was just curious, you know you don't know till you ask. I respect your belief.

You need to try that cold remedy of mine though--go catch a cold so you can try it!

Best regards,
odin1

ELLis says To me, this makes any person's existence, cut short by death of the body, pointless.

Compare this anomie-like belief with the nihilism:

"Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position which argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. ...
* Objective morality does not exist; therefore no action is logically preferable to any other.
* In the absence of morality, existence has no higher meaning or goal.
* There is no reasonable proof or argument for the existence of a higher ruler or creator.
* Even if a higher ruler or creator exists, mankind has no moral obligation to worship them.

The term nihilism is sometimes used synonymously with anomie to denote a general mood of despair at the pointlessness of existence."

Nihilist can refer to a person who rejects truth, meaning, value, and the possibility of knowledge. It was, also, a Russian cultural and political movement.
=========================================
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11074a.htm



MY PERSONAL FAITH--which respects all sincerely held beliefs.
=============================================================
I try to avoid confusing the death of my physical body with the death of me. Also, I try to avoid absolutism in all its forms. As I understand it, over the years I have lost several bodies. The day will come when I will use up the last one. I look on this as the death of my last body. But, without any proof at this point, in no way do I feel that this is the death of me.

Thank you for the defining definitions.

I'm definitely not a nihilist!!

I will regard the suggestion that I am as merely fanciful rather than offensive, as being a non-nihilist I am happy, not despairing and choose to look on the bright side of life!

You're welcome, Ellis. I believes it always helps communication when we know what people are not. It helps even more when we know what they stand for, and are.

For example, I understand that most atheists (people without any belief in a God, or gods) believe that there is no kind of consciousness for them or anyone, in any way shape or form, beyond the death of the body. Life, for atheists, is strictly a physical phenomenon. Am I correct in understanding that this is what atheists believe?

Think of this: Everyday children are born who live only one day, or even less. If they are born to parents who dearly wanted a child it must be heartbreaking to such parents.

Of what value is a life that only lasts one day? Does it serve just to break the hearts of loving parents?

I do not know what atheists believe, I only know what I do and as far as I know there is no written formula for me to conform to.

One thing I will say-- if I were an all powerful presence or being I'd make sure that every child was loved, wanted and nurtured, and absolutely none of them would die of horrible painful conditions that mean suffering of the sort of proportion that I am (thankfully) unable to imagine. Actually I think you have hit on one of the greatest reasons for believing there is no such thing as any sort of god - or at least if there is such a phenomenon it is malevolent.

But isn't saying there is no future and no opportunity, ever, more malevolent? As a unitheist--and here I have something in common with theists--I believe that, as part of the process, all things can, and will be redeemed, eventually.

I just came across this:

This poses an interesting idea: Perhaps in the same way that some bright people have a mental block and find it difficult to reason, mathematically, atheists have a mental handicap--the inability to have faith. Perhaps this phenomenon needs to be studied and help offered.

BTW, I say: Because I accept the physical universe as part of GOD, I have reason for my faith. However, in exploring that which I intuit is beyond the physical universe I depend on faith more than I do reason.

Clearly.


Excellent post, Ellis. Live long and prosper. (You too, Rev)

To curious and humane atheists and/or agnostics:
Do to think it is possible for a human being, or even any number of us, to become GOD-like, humane and saintly?
Wouldn't it be a nice thing if more and more of us chose to do so?

As Paul wrote to the Romans 1:7: "To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be Saints."

Saints are ordinary people who at least choose to live--whether they do so at all times is another question--as God-like sons and daughters in the service of humanity and the world.

Hello Rev,

I am not an atheist, but if I may I would answer your question from my point of view.

No. Not in this life. I don't think a human being can become God like. I believe there are good people. The problem I have with Saints is they are all catholic. Is the catholic religion the only one that has access to the throne of God?

Rev, like I said in a previous post-I believe we hold our own demons, it is a constant struggle with all of us. You know, the clerk makes a $20.00 mistake when you make a purchase. Do you give the money back or keep it? The next door neighbor's wife has been awful loose lateley. Do you have a fling, or do what the teachings tell you to do? We all have these tempatations and I believe God knows his creation and understands no saints are on Earth. But,--he gives us free choice here and the prize is when the body dies what is left moves to a higher state of conciousness that does not have the "animal" portion to contend with.

best regards,
odin1

Odin, I think I see where you are coming from.

BTW, when I talk about being "God-like", or saintly, I am not talking about being absolutely perfect, in the now.

You mentioned the clerks mistake. You just reminded me: In 1964, I found a small box in a room in the church were I was the minister. The caretaker and I were the only ones in the building at the time. In the box was $1,500.00, in crisp 100 dollar bills--almost the price of new car in those days. I could have pocketed the money and no one would ever have known the difference. Keep in mind, I had no idea where the money came from and no theft was involved. All I had to do was keep quiet.

My conscience, because of the kind of life I intended to live, would not let me keep quiet. With some effort, I found out who owned the money. With a good conscience, I gave it back and accepted no reward. The person who lost the money was in deep need of it.

Am I a saint? Not yet, but I am working on it and I intend to keep working on it.

Let me put it this way: Is it your intention to be, on the road, on the way to becoming more and more humane?

Keep in mind that when Paul wrote to Rome it was long before the Church of Rome. IMO, Roman Catholicism grew out of Roman imperialism and did not enter history until after the emperor, Constantine, in the 4th. century.

Are you active in any church?

Hiya Revl. Happy Sunday. Be back later....


Ellis,
I think you're personalizing and subjectivizing too much. Sure, on a personal level, death, loss, and grief are not "good" things; but in the big picture (of Evolution, ...or G0d's Plan) these things are necessary, and can be seen as a beautiful sacrifice. Quoting Kahlil Gibran, "The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain."

...also, but unrelated....
When I listen to most religious folks, I've always felt like an atheist; but when I listen to the music of the spheres, the universe, I feel deeply theistic.
Now, knowing of the more fundamental bases of reality, and reality's illusory nature, I find it easy to let go of my preconceived notions and accept the notion for wider possibilities; and easily understand what religious folks have been talking about. There are so many more connections across reality than we are aware of in this three-dimensional spatial realm.

Hello Rev,

You mentioned "concience", a critical word for all of us. That little voice in the back of your mind that say's "you know that's wrong-now do the right thing". That struggle, you can call it good vs evil,god vs satan, ying-yang, whatever. It is my opinion that when you don't hear that voice anymore, you are lost. There are absolutes in this world, if you are an atheist, agnostic, christian or muslem. We live in a world with over 6 billion people there has to be a roadmap of life for us to go by or it is more choas that it is right now.

I am Baptist. I do not attend church, because I am like many other people, I make excuses and am lazy. I went to church as a youth and treaure everything I learned.

Like I have said before, I think the anger with religion is not really directed toward the religion, the anger is really with centuries of improper involvment from the churchs and religion gets the blame.

But Rev, one thing we should all remember, and I am going to make a comparison with Islam. Islam teaches about the same as christianity. Yet, with what happened on 9/11 all of these extremist Muslems that have memorized the Quaran, I know of none of them that has came out publically and condemned these terrorist and extremist for what they have done. And this is what really chaps peoples behind with organized religion. Now, you read my post weeks back about what has been done in the name of christianity. This is what hurts. I know there are a lot of good muslems, I know there are a lot of good christians, I know there are a lot good catholics, but you have to set an example to these folks that don't know that for what ever reason. In short, some of the religious leaders turn their head.

I think the problem needs to be faced and brought in the open, we need to clean out our closet. Rev, I think you are a good man and nothing I say is intended toward you, and please accept this as the truth. I'm just telling you what I think is factual. Consider this as a -- well "confession".

best regards,
odin1

Good points, Sam.

I like your comment about your being willing to let go of your, "preconceived notions".

One of the reasons I prefer dialogue over debate is: Debate is a zero sum game--someone has to lose. Dialogue is a win/win game. It helps us understand what our preconceived notions are.

Once this becomes apparent, we can move on to the kinds of notions, which are really possible, and of real value to everyone.

"The deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the more joy you can contain."

Sam (Don't read this if easily offended) I think this is the sort of sentimental twaddle you find on those shiny printed cards with cute kittens on them. I think you can learn from sorrow and you can certainly learn to experience joy again, but the experience of deep sorrow leaves a shadow that lasts forever and it will exist even in the presence of otherwise apparently complete happiness.

However when you say;---"when I listen to the music of the spheres, the universe, I feel deeply theistic"... I agree with you wholeheartedly. (Well maybe not theist but certainly deeply moved and awe-struck!)

The dilemma as I see it is that religious thought and tradition has inspired and condoned so much of art, poetry and literature it would be impossible to cut yourself off from so much that is important in our society. In my case I think I fall into the cultural christianity position (see an earlier post) which I think is very common. It is not, for instance, necessary to believe in God to enjoy Mozart's 'Requiem' or Bach's sacred music.

LOL. Gee, since being a teenager, that's been one of my favorite teachings. I don't think Gibran means that joy will obliterate the furrow of sorrow; just that the depth of a "shadow" can make the light of happiness that much brighter, and more precious.
....
Ellis,
In the above context, I used the word "theistic," but your, "deeply moved and awe-struck" is a much better and more descriptive synonym. I think it is that simple translation that allows me to understand and experience (perhaps only some of) what others mean when they say they "believe in...."

...and aside from "mine and yours," let us not forget theirs.

Andy Rooney, musing on Memorial Day, Sunday Eve, May 25, 2008.

...after talking about how he celebrates the memory of his fallen friends on all days; and not more so on Memorial Day.

"I wish we could dedicate Memorial Day not to the memory of those who have died at war, but to the idea of saving the lives of the young people who are going to die in the future if we don't find some new way, some new religion maybe, that takes war out of our lives. That would be a Memorial Day worth celebrating." -Andy Rooney

Hey Andy, ...maybe a religion that stressed the cooperation required for implementing stewardship, over the competition engendered by asserting dominion....
We now have the skills, resources, and understanding to manage and re-create the Earth. Maybe that's what the old saying about, "the meek shall inherit the Earth," means.
~~~

For some time now I have been working on a rhyme expressing the awe I feel when I think of the cosmos and my connection with it:

We are one with all that is;
One with the land, the sky and seas.
One with the earth, the moon, sun, stars,
The planets and the galaxies.
We can be one with all that is,
And though it may seem odd:
All live in the eternal now,
Where all there is, is GOD.

I like your suggestion for a new direction. Co-operation v. competition.

I had no idea who Andy Rooney was so I googled him. He sounds interesting! What an amazing statement too. That he dared to say it on such a day shows some character. We have had ANZAC Day in April here and recently we seem to stress the patriotic jingoism and forget that real, often unbelievably young, people died there. They call it sacrifice- but I think it is the mothers and fathers who made the sacrifice then, and still are asked to today. One of the songs from a previous era sums it up for me... The Universal Soldier. I think Rooney may agree with the song's sentiment.

And speaking of the need for a new approach, just today (CBC Radio) I heard an interview with Howard Zinn. He defended those who want to make Memorial Day not just a day to glorify war. More and more people are beginning to come to their senses and realize that war is a racket owned an operated by the powerful few and of little or no value to the vast majority.

Finn is the author of
A PEOPLE'S HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES
See Wikipedia:

For me, the idea that any form of awareness is extinguished upon one's 'death' is absurd. The notion of nothingness simply cannot be.
The universe and existence in general are only 'real' because of the fact we have awareness of it. To the best of our knowledge, awareness requires a 'life-form' to accommodate it. Therefore, without 'life', there is no awareness and hence, no universe. without life, one could say that there is then, 'nothingness'. So, for anything to exist, there must be awareness of it. It seems a paradox but is really so simple.

Anon, I agree. Now, what do you think happens after death?