Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online
0 registered (), 209 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Is there anybody out there?
by paul
12/07/19 03:58 AM
Top Posters (30 Days)
paul 1
True 1
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >
Topic Options
#26102 - 05/17/08 10:28 PM About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinking...
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
DEATH--Like birth, the universal experience. Here, I invite all of us to think about Death--mine, yours and that of others.

Here, let us dialogue about death--mine and yours. What comments and questions come to our minds?

For example, I want to ask: Because it is such a hard fact of life, is there such a thing as, "the study of, the science of, death? Is it a hard science or a soft one? What do you think?


Edited by Revlgking (05/17/08 10:31 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
.
#26106 - 05/18/08 06:16 AM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinking... [Re: Revlgking]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
A provisional opinion:

We can begin by stating that the causes of death and the processes of dying are well known, as are the differences between living and dead physical structures. To that extent it's hard science - and perhaps it's debatable that there is any other kind of science than hard science. No matter how sceptical one may be, it would be unscientific to say that death is indisputably and conclusively the end of one's existence simply on the grounds that, to date, there's no scientific proof to the contrary; any scientist will agree that knowledge is constantly being updated - they would hardly be doing science if they thought otherwise. Currently, however, claims to certain knowledge regarding anything else about death seem to be based either on interpretations of personal experience, or the conviction that various related theological teachings are correct. My own opinion concerning such knowledge is that (a) one's personal experience is of very high value, irrespective of how others may feel compelled to interpret it, (b) the personal experiences claimed by others, together with the theological teachings, carry no weight.

Top
#26108 - 05/18/08 06:02 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinking... [Re: redewenur]
Anonymous
Unregistered


I have no doubt in my mind that we survive after physical death.
You want proof? I have none. Neither can anyone else prove to me there is not.

I believe conciousness is an energy, and energy cannot be destroyed, just changed. I find it hard to believe that we are all mistakes made by a primorial soup, from eons ago, a comet carrying DNA or proteins from another part of the galaxy. Evolution has more holes in it that swiss cheese, the fossil records don't add up there are too many gaps. I have looked at both arguments and have realized that some things can't be answered because -- lets face it folks-- right now we ain't smart enough! And some PHd's don't want to admit they are not God. I have really questioned the existance of a higher diety. I did some serious soul searching a while back. Now I find when you look at the science and fall back on religion they are ever more merging together.

I believe the moment I die a new existance will occur. In what form I don't know. There are all kinds of claims out there, spirts, mediums a lot of hocus pocus that proves nothing. I base my belief on faith and some elementary laws of physics. Right now this is the best I can do.

best regards,
odin1

Top
#26110 - 05/18/08 07:38 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: Anonymous]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
From Odin
Quote:
I have no doubt in my mind that we survive after physical death. ...

I believe conciousness is an energy, and energy cannot be destroyed, just changed.

... I believe the moment I die a new existance will occur. In what form I don't know. ... Right now this is the best I can do.

best regards,
odin1
Thanks for your gentle rant, Odin. What I hear you say, Odin, is: It takes a lot of blind faith to believe in nothing. Belief in something has both reason and faith on its side.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#26112 - 05/18/08 07:57 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: Revlgking]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Hello Revlgking,

Hope you are well. Some things are just unexplainable right now.
Faith has it's place in our world just like therory's. Sometimes I think we (human race) get a little too big for our brithches. We put a man on the moon and think we have unlocked all the secrets of the universe. If we can't explain something - well oboviously it can't exist. Putting a man on the moon 100 years ago were considered the rantings of a lunatic. Who knows in the next 100 years what will be proven - by science. Some people will look really funny saying - there is absolutely no possiblity of life after death. And if it don't happen...well we will all know in due time for ourselves, and perhaps that is the way it was intended to be.

thanks for your post Rev.
best regards,
odin1

_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



Top
#26114 - 05/18/08 08:12 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Here let me point out that I grew up as one to whom death was no stranger. As a consequence of the poverty in the early 1930's, I witnessed the deaths of my oldest brother, my sister, her husband and their two children and our mother, between 1932 and 1935. Our father died in 1944.

BTW, in the summer of 1942, as a 12 year old, I witnessed the sinking, by enemy submarines, of four iron-ore carriers, not far from where I lived http://www.bellisland.net Nearly 70 young merchant seamen lost their lives--all part of the five-year-long Battle of the Atlantic.

In stead of driving me to despair this motivated me to take a deep interested in what keeps us healthy, and makes for peace, not war. Because I got the opportunity to get a good education I feel it has made a difference and pointed me the way to better health, including economic justice and peace.

However, now as I rapidly close in on being an octogenarian I am well aware--especially as I read the obituary pages--of my own mortality; that I am at that stage when I could get the call to the next stage of being, or non being. But my goal is to age gracefully and to die, as they say, of natural causes and relatively healthy.

One of the things which I feel has helped me over the years is what I learned about stress and the best way to deal with stress it. Decades ago I came to the conclusion: Physical and mental stress are rooted in what I call the pneuma (the spirit). Stress has pneumatological roots.

Alright, to get the point I want to make try this: Visualize that, using a pump, you are blowing up a balloon. As it expands, you notice stretch marks appear on the surface of the balloon. If, to prevent it from bursting, you do nothing but apply physical patches to the stretch-marked areas, it doesn't take too much imagination to see that, eventually, the balloon will burst. Actually, just patching may even hasten the balloon's demise.

The solution. Get back to the source of the problem. Ask yourself: "What maximum pressure is the balloon designed to take? And, why am I doing this? What purpose is it that I am hoping to accomplish?

In my opinion, when it comes to total health we are not just somatological (physical) or animal-like beings, we are holistic ones. In addition to being physical beings, we are psychological (mental) and pneumatological (spiritual), humane-like, beings.



Edited by Revlgking (05/18/08 08:40 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#26115 - 05/18/08 08:56 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: Revlgking]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
The best way I have ever heard death explained is this "death is part of life". We all have to die, or the body dies. The essence that makes odin and Revlgking or anyone else, in my humble opinion which is backed up with faith and some science continues on. Now, this varies with different religions. My faith tells me, I will go to heaven. My user name I use on this site is "odin" which was the norse god of war and knowledge. They believed you went to valhala and set around feasting, slapping women on the behind and drinking in the great hall till the final battle when all ends. That was the pagans heaven (not such a bad place!)but , seriously, every culture has believed in the existance of the soul. You and I have discussed before re-incarnation. I will not dispute it because it makes sense. I asked a minister one time this question.

"Will it not be boring setting in heaven day after day having your every need fulfilled?"

His reply was this:

"I believe that we all will have a duty to do in God's universe, tending to his business"

Something to think about.

best regards,'
odin1


Edited by odin1 (05/18/08 08:57 PM)
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



Top
#26123 - 05/19/08 04:29 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: odin1]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Right on! Odin. I have no desire to rest in peace. Or does R.I.P. really mean ripped in pieces? laugh

My goal is to have all the energy I need to get on doing all the things I would love to do.

BTW, when I was in Florida--my wife and I were there for about a month in March--I picked up some kind of a bug--I felt fatigued and had a dry tickle in my throat and a cough. My old feeling of energy is just now returning. Until recently, I have had to drag myself to get my spring gardening done. BTW, April was warm in Markham, Ontario. May is quite wet and cool--more like we expect April to be.

Posters: Tell us about your spring, and, unless it is a top secret, your health.


Edited by Revlgking (05/19/08 04:32 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#26124 - 05/19/08 05:20 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: Revlgking]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello Revlgking,

Spring here is real nice. The temp is about 80 degrees with a beautiful blue sky to look at. We had some rain last night. My health so far as I know is good. I take no medication, however I did have a terrible head cold for the past few days-but I used my secret formula for that. I am going to give this out and it works-it is an old remedy but completely natural.

moonshine
gingerale
honey
soft peppermint candy
slice of lemon

mix it all together, about 3/4 of inch in a coffee cup of moonshine or (white liquor)and the rest of the cup with the other ingredients. Heat it-drink it as hot as you can stand it and go to bed. You can't buy anything that will work better that this. I feel like a new man today--I can breath. But, I have no medical problems as I know, and had a checkup a few weeks ago. Other than being lazy, stupid and hard headed I'm Ok.

Thanks for asking Rev.

have a good day
odin1

Top
#26125 - 05/19/08 06:25 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: Anonymous]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Odin: Moonshine? You mean gin? or vodka? BTW, like you, so far I take no drugs.

I note that you live in North Carolina. Years ago, the Kings visited Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, several times.


Edited by Revlgking (05/19/08 06:29 PM)

Top
#26126 - 05/19/08 07:16 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: Revlgking]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Homemade moonshine-made from corn-the good stuff..............
It was given to me by a friend that makes some each year. I have had that quart for a year now. It's not a quart anymore. I use it for exactly what I described in my previous post. I am not a drinker-I like good wine occasionally with my meal a good wet wine. And a small juice glass before I go to bed occasionally. It is good for the arteries and helps in digestion. Vodka would probably do as well as moonshine.

I live about 40 minutes from Myrtle Beach.

best regards,
odin1


Top
#26127 - 05/20/08 01:42 AM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: Anonymous]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
As birth is the start of life- death is the end. That's it. I don't believe in the Afterlife in any shape or form. Once you are dead, you've had your chance! However as I have mentioned before on this site I feel that we are remembered in the thoughts of our friends, and, if we have been fortunate enough to have children, in our family heritage. It is up to us to try to ensure that when our names are mentioned the reaction is a fond one and perhaps even a smile....But immortality of any other sort--- no!

Meantime though I have a few aches and pains--well who doesn't--- I am mostly doing well and keeping healthy! I can't wait to get a cold though to try out that amazing concoction of Anon's.



Top
#26129 - 05/20/08 01:55 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: Ellis]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Hello Ellis,

That is my concoction you read about. I was not logged in when I posted it, sorry. But you really should try it, it works. You know cough medicine has alcohol in it anyway, and most other cold medicines you buy off the shelf. But, go to bed when you drink it--don't be fanning around.

best regards
Dr. Odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



Top
#26132 - 05/20/08 02:56 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: odin1]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Ellis,

May I ask you a question?
This is in regard to your post.
You said:
"But immortality of any other sort--- no!"

I am curious and if you think its none of my business -then of course its not, but why do you believe there is no chance of an afterlife?

I'm just curious
best regards,
odin1




_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



Top
#26133 - 05/20/08 06:24 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: odin1]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Ellis' creed about death:
Quote:
I don't believe in the Afterlife in any shape or form. Once you are dead, you've had your chance!
Ellis, I am assume you realize that this is a statement of your faith about the future. And no doubt your are aware that the majority of people believe otherwise--they believe that this one life is not all there is.

You add: "However, as I have mentioned before on this site, I feel that we are remembered in the thoughts of our friends, and, if we have been fortunate enough to have children, in our family heritage."

I am sure you realize that this kind of "belief" is very problematic. This means that for the millions who die before birth, or shortly thereafter, life is meaningless? Eventually, no lives will be remembered in any meaningful way.

IMO, Ellis is not an atheist; I would say he an anti-humanist; he just has no faith in the future of human evolution. I am sure that there must be atheists who are not nihilists.

Visualize the first Ellis-like person to evolve to the level when he recognized that he had this new talent of being conscious. I can imagine him saying: "So, now I have the talent to know that I know, and know when I do not know. What possible good can such a talent do for anyone?


Edited by Revlgking (05/20/08 06:35 PM)

Top
#26136 - 05/21/08 06:17 AM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
I believe no life is meaningless in the sense you imply Rev. I can't understand the 'anti-humanist' thing at all. I am firmly in the camp of the evolutionists. Am I being anti-humanist if I agree with the Vatican that somewhere a species may exist as the result of evolution in their far-off world that appears superior in every way to we humans? I don't think so. Superiority should not inevitably lead to contempt anyway. And I am definitely not a nihilist!

I just don't believe we exist after we are dead. Not in any way, shape or form.

Are you being ironic Rev when you question the talent of knowledge? I hope so. Couldn't quite work that insult out!

PS I'm a "she"- as I've stated before.

Top
#26137 - 05/21/08 06:38 AM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: Ellis]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Odin- I do not believe in the afterlife as I have no religious beliefs at all. I explained in another post after someone challenged me before as to why I feel like this. I think I always have. I had access to religious teaching as a child, but I questioned it. Then I had an incident where I was very ill and death was a possibility for both me and my newly born child. After it was all over- happily- I realised I had not thought once to pray or ask any god to help us. I made no bargains and gave thanks only to the splendid human medicos who saved us. I wondered why, and I realised I thought that praying was useless as there was no one there. I was near death and felt no divinity near at all, and, very importantly, I do not miss it.

Now I don't expect others to feel the same. I do not jeer at faith and belief. I do sometimes say it is irrational, because I think it is. But that is no reason to stop believing for many people and they get comfort from their beliefs. I just don't share them though.

Luckily I live in a country that does not require one to have a faith eg politicians are not asked their religious beliefs and can be non-religious and still get elected. I am not at all unusual here, neither am I unhappy and or 'searching for meaning in my life'.

Top
#26138 - 05/21/08 07:37 AM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: Revlgking]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
...the value of knowing what you do not know. -hmmmmmm

...meanwhile....
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Ellis, I ...assume you realize that this is a statement of your faith about the future.

Wow, this is getting complicated....
Revl. your assumption means that an after-life is necessary for the evolution of humanity, IMO. Is this right?
I'd think that the idea that "this is all there is" isn't necessarily nihilistic, but could make humanity (and it's evolution) that much more significant.
...

I like the idea of some existence after life, but I wouldn't call it "an after-life" life; just some sort of existence as awareness, ...but not self-awareness.

What I always wonder about is "the before-life" life or existence/awareness; which I think must also be real, if the "after-life" is real.

Think about it. Do you have any vague memories of why it seemed right to be borne in this place and time?
... smile

_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#26139 - 05/21/08 12:01 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: samwik]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Thanks for the reply Ellis,

I was just curious, you know you don't know till you ask. I respect your belief.

You need to try that cold remedy of mine though--go catch a cold so you can try it!

Best regards,
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



Top
#26140 - 05/21/08 04:07 PM Re: About Death and Dying, MIne and Yours: Thinkin [Re: odin1]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
ELLis says
Quote:
I just don't believe we exist after we are dead. Not in any way, shape or form.
To me, this makes any person's existence, cut short by death of the body, pointless.

Compare this anomie-like belief with the nihilism:

"Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) is a philosophical position which argues that existence is without objective meaning, purpose, or intrinsic value. ...
* Objective morality does not exist; therefore no action is logically preferable to any other.
* In the absence of morality, existence has no higher meaning or goal.
* There is no reasonable proof or argument for the existence of a higher ruler or creator.
* Even if a higher ruler or creator exists, mankind has no moral obligation to worship them.

The term nihilism is sometimes used synonymously with anomie to denote a general mood of despair at the pointlessness of existence."

Nihilist can refer to a person who rejects truth, meaning, value, and the possibility of knowledge. It was, also, a Russian cultural and political movement.
=========================================
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11074a.htm

Quote:
The nihilist theory was formulated by Cernysevskij in his novel "Cto delat" (What shall be done, 1862-64), which forecasts a new social order constructed on the ruins of the old. But essentially, Nihilism was a reaction against the abuses of Russian absolutism; it originated with the first secret political society in Russia founded by Pestel (1817), and its first effort was the military revolt of the Decembrists (14 Dec., 1825).

Nicholas I crushed the uprising, sent its leaders to the scaffold and one hundred and sixteen participants to Siberia. The spread (1830) of certain philosophical doctrines (Hegel, Saint Simon, Fourier) brought numerous recruits to Nihilism, especially in the universities; and, in many of the cities, societies were organized to combat absolutism and introduce constitutional government.


MY PERSONAL FAITH--which respects all sincerely held beliefs.
=============================================================
I try to avoid confusing the death of my physical body with the death of me. Also, I try to avoid absolutism in all its forms. As I understand it, over the years I have lost several bodies. The day will come when I will use up the last one. I look on this as the death of my last body. But, without any proof at this point, in no way do I feel that this is the death of me.


_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
Page 1 of 2 1 2 >



Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor
Facebook

We're on Facebook
Join Our Group

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.