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#27411 - 08/01/08 12:30 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Zephir]
samwik Offline
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Posts: 1164
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For instance, civilization's timelines may go through a process analogous to the "condensations" and consequent effects on other civilization's timelines (worldlines).

Are you familiar with Michio Kaku's Type I civilization?
http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=25569#Post25569

Eventually there will be a new level of 'condensation' based on the building resonances (emergences?) of individual civilizations.

Becoming Type I ...is like a phase change, maybe?


...to which Zephir posted:
Originally Posted By: Zephir
Originally Posted By: samwik
...Becoming Type I ...is like a phase change, maybe...
It can appear as a WWW III, because it seems, the human civilization cannot avoid mistakes during its evolution.


Some wars might lead to a phase change, but I think most wars would just continue the same state we now exist in.
But wars are just one kind of adjustment.

To achieve a true phase change or emergence, at least one major new quality must develop (probably many new qualities).

Wars are one way of affecting or imposing "organization and a change in culture and behaviour." *
* http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=27401#Post27401

Other ways of affecting organization & change could involve our new abilities to communicate, collect, analyze and exchange information across networks in realtime.

Like flying a high-speed aircraft successfully, one needs constant feedback and adjustments.

Quick Adaptive management as opposed to slow reactive management is needed as we progress away from ideological proactive (slow) management.

Anywhere you might want to have a war these days is in your own backyard, relatively.
We've filled our niche.
"Wars" should be competitions to see who can rescue their coastline and restore net productivity. wink

~ smile


Edited by samwik (08/01/08 12:50 AM)
Edit Reason: repeat previous posts
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Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#27416 - 08/01/08 08:00 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: samwik]
Ellis Offline
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It would be a great pity if change had to be contingent on the continuation or necessity of war. But I suppose that would only be so if the 'shift' were to be unplanned. ... or do I mean unforeseen... or more likely have I missed the point! Let's hope sam is right and war is only one sort of change. Thankfully there are others.

But then maybe shifting to Type One is not desirable?

NB. Thanks for the explanation Zephir. It helped.

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#27418 - 08/01/08 01:02 PM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Zephir]
redewenur Offline
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Hi samwik.

What is it that literally or metaphorically 'changes phase'. To put it another way, how, precisely, is the task of grappling with the seemingly poetic and questionable relevance of such words rewarded by a better understanding of the transition from one civ Type to another?
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#27439 - 08/04/08 09:40 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: redewenur]
samwik Offline
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Originally Posted By: redewenur
What is it that literally or metaphorically 'changes phase'.

Meta-data is a good example of a 'phase change,' I think.
Any new quality, emerging out of simpler system that has reached some type of 'critical mass.'
===

Thanks rede,
Always good to get a reality check; like a little slap in the face! wink

So let's see, we need to try and imagine a new state of matter and what new properties it might have; predicting a sea-changing, paradigm shift, or imagining a new 'world order.' Real easy, eh?
Nothing like a little late nite musing.
Just....

Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

~John Lennon


Tile :John Lennon - Imagine
This is lyrics from www.lyrics007.com
http://www.lyrics007.com/John%20Lennon%20Lyrics/Imagine%20Lyrics.html
http://www.lyrics007.com/print.php?id=TWpjd01qQXo
===

Back from the future....
Some cool possibilities.


I see a globe in every room that has constantly changing borders based on what the local and regional populations are doing at the moment. No more nations (as the song suggests); well, not nations with borders. It's all corporate, but with different corporations based on local, regional, continental, and global affiliations and interests. ....a globe with easily highlighted, zoomable, Multi-layered and overlapping "regions" defined by differing parameters (needs, interests, resources, culture, equity...).
...No money either, but value earned as credit added through participation in the locally/regionally/etc. owned entities.

...and a World with no Advertising! (the best change, IMO)!
The Pursuit of Information and understanding is the currency, the attraction, the entertainmant, and the exercise. No schools because education is distributed across daily life, throughout the day, between naps and projects. Even the military is distributed throughout daily life; more as a militia, but with a focus on health, fitness, survivalism and sustainability skills; and with interconnected, multi-layered spheres of authority, much like the corporate model. There's no News! Nothing is new, it's all just knowledge evolving; changing, being updated and monitored, possessing a history and webbed with the present education economy. Religions, still locally and regionally usefull, are also enriched by a global ethic recognizing the commonality of religions and philosophies like secular humanism. It's a global ethic that develops as a sort of Lingua Franca of religions allowing for a motivation and focus not on doctrine or dogma, but on easily recognized goals and outcomes relating to health, jobs, and social assistance and equity, ...and stewardship; and also integrated into the days focus on research, education and entrepeneurship. Shopping malls become community and business resource centers, storage and distribution hubs, and incubators for small business creativity and development.

A never ending quest to better understand and live within the planetary, living and the cosmic spheres; stewarding a balance for all to best fit, as a healthy part, within a healthy environment.

Imagine all creation
With knowledge close at hand
Learning every puzzle piece
Is the best that we can do
Imagine every tribe of man
Living on the land

"You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one"
smile
===

I guess a possible "phase change" could be a sort of "Institutional Distribution" that seems to cut across all the layers of civilization. Decentralization of institutions would lead to stronger feelings of ownership and responsibility, and less waste and corruption; a sort of e-democracy.

LOL
crazy

Yea, well you try to imagine a new state of matter; a new emergent phase, maybe halfway between matter and energy (BEC's?) or some condensed matter/anti-gravity phase.


~Later,
smile
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#27451 - 08/05/08 03:42 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: redewenur]
Zephir Offline
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Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: redewenur
..What is it that literally or metaphorically 'changes phase'...
By Aether Wave Theory everything, what we can observe from reality are just a changes, i.e. the Aether density gradients. This follows from analogy of particle gas or fluid, where only density gradients can be observed.

This is because every density gradient is behaving like place, where the mater is moving in circles like particles bouncing at the undulating water surface. It "undulates at place" in compactified (hidden) dimensions, thus making "permanent changes", so it can be perceived as a atemporal, persistent entity. We can see, the phase transition is nothing else, then the compactification of underlying space-time. Note that the space dimension compactified becomes a time dimension in the space-time, which is formed by compactification of previous space. By such way, the AWT explains clearly, what the time is and how it is related to the spatial dimensions.


In semantic, the phase transition is the case, when particular combinations of words are obtaining a new persistent meaning, so they're replaced by another special word and/or phrase ("red edible fruit" = "apple"). The formation of phrases has an analogy in physics as so called boson condensate, where the particles are moving in pairs (so called the Cooper pairs). The formation of Cooper pairs is driven by the same reason, like the formation of new words and phrases: it intensifies the energy/information spreading, because a fewer amount of bytes is required for successfully transfer of information under increased requirement of memory at the price.

The phase transition occurs quite often as a result of increased density of energy/information spreading. For example, in medieval era, the simple peer-to-peer mechanism of information spreading (a tradition) was sufficient. As the density of population/information increased, a specialized form of communication were established gradually : a messenger (1:1), postman (1:M) and colpolteur/distributor (M:N). In the Internet era we can observe the formation of special protocols (IP, TCP over IP, HTTP over TCP/IP and so on...), which corresponds the formation of special phases of inertial matter (lepton, hadron, atom nuclei, whole atoms, molecules, water droplets, etc...)

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#27456 - 08/05/08 06:15 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Zephir]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Zephir wrote;

'In the internet era we can observe the formation of special protocols (IP, TCP over IP, HTTP over TCP/IP and so on...), which corresponds the formation of special phases of inertial matter (lepton, hadron, atom nuclei, whole atoms, molecules, water droplets, etc...)'

Which means what in terms of practicality? In Medieval times (as you suggest), such things could not be observed, just as there are things happening now that are still unknown, invisible and undetected that profoundly influence our lives. By producing the protocols for these 'phases' are we merely labelling them and their influences as they affect us, or are we discovering them, or are we inventing them? Or don't we know?

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#27457 - 08/05/08 10:54 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Ellis]
Zephir Offline
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Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: Ellis
....are we merely labeling them and their influences as they affect us, or are we discovering them, or are we inventing them? Or don't we know?...
It depends. Basically, the inventions and technical development cannot be predicted, planned the less - but for example the existence of Moore's Law demonstrates clearly, many aspects of social evolution are of objective character and as such they just follow energetic requirements of the society. This is the more true, the larger the society is and the better the random, subjective factors are averaged.

For example, if Einstein wouldn't derive special/general relativity himself, Poincare/Hilbert would do it in few years, if not few months time-frame as well - society was prepared for such invention. The proposal of Aether Wave Theory is nothing surprising from such perspective as well: many indicia of particle-like nature of Universe are known already. The AWT could be proposed before one hundred years without problem, because it's simple and it doesn't depend on mainstream physics inventions and theories - only physics of Victorian era.

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#27473 - 08/06/08 05:20 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Zephir]
Ellis Offline
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Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
The AWT could be proposed before one hundred years without problem, because it's simple and it doesn't depend on mainstream physics inventions and theories - only physics of Victorian era.

Now that's REALLY an interesting point Zephir, though it seems to imply that we are discovering rather than inventing I think. Does this in turn mean that we are building on the past, or is this a completely new way of thinking about semantic shift?

I find the example of apples ---- edible red fruit---etc quite an novel way of understanding this whole subject!! Most of the time I am way out of my comfort zone.

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#27474 - 08/06/08 08:46 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Ellis]
Zephir Offline
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Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: Ellis
...that we are discovering rather than inventing...
Indeed, we cannot reveal the connections, which didn't exist already. This doesn't mean, everything is predetermined, so that the laws have existed before the entities involved. As the Universe condenses, it's complexity increases and the number of laws increases as well. By analogous way, the laws of gramatic couldn't exist before the new words were proposed/evolved.

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#27484 - 08/07/08 12:31 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Zephir]
Ellis Offline
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---Or do the new words have to conform to grammatical rules in order to exist? Some remedial reading techniques require learners to recognise such ungrammatical letter groupings as so-called 'nonsense' words. Is there recognition of such 'nonsense' in Physics? Although there is always the salutary memory of 'junk DNA' in another branch of science- that has proved to be no such thing!

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#27491 - 08/07/08 07:46 PM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Zephir]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Zephir
As the Universe condenses, it's complexity increases and the number of laws increases as well. By analogous way, the laws of gramatic couldn't exist before the new words were proposed/evolved.

You've given laws of grammar as an analogy, but what are the actual laws that you're referring to. Can you give a real example?
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"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#27495 - 08/08/08 08:35 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: redewenur]
Zephir Offline
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Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: redewenur
..Can you give a real example?
Well, I'm not linguist definitely, the English grammar specialist the less. But for example in Czech language exists a large number of grammar exceptions, which are connected with the preferential usage of i/y letters in words. These exceptions are named "enumerated words" and their lists are increasing gradually, as the number of words increases. By my information a similar lists of exceptions exists in English (irregular-verbs, as an example).

The common situation is, newly adopted/generated words are created by existing grammar rules and at the moment, when the number of words increases, some need of new exception emerges. At the moment, the number of exception increases, the new generation of rules for their creation are postulated, after then new generation of exception can appear, which can introduce another generation of rules, etc.

This process corresponds the nested phase transition of Aether foam, where the exceptions (density fluctuations, droplets) appears, these droplets can create a new phase, which exhibits a new generation of fluctuations and droplets and so on. We can see, the formation of new rules always requires a sufficient number of exceptions. Such mechanism is so trivial, so it's surprising, it wasn't never proposed by some linguists, the physicists the less for general description of evolution of nature laws.

Every semantical rule simplifies the orientation inside of large number of exceptions, which are of less or more chaotic nature. We can say, the rules are intensifying the information spreading through large field of exception by the same way, like the formation of foam and droplets inside of field of particle fluctuations intensifies the energy spreading through such field.

Now, because this analogy is so apparent, we can ask, what makes both these processes so similar and predictable, so we can understand better their common nature? Try to propose some mechanism!

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#27496 - 08/08/08 11:32 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Zephir]
Zephir Offline
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By my present understanding the most general answer belongs in realm of physics, not semantics, math of informatics. This is because these sciences are abstract, which means, they're operating with concepts, which are itself a generalization (i.e. abstracts) of many entities of reality. In addition, the math or informatics doesn't explain, what makes the numbers or bits countable units of reality, while the physics can develop the theory of countable colliding units aka particles.

Therefore for relevant explanation of natural law emergence and evolution we are required to have some minimal knowledge of physical reality. The AWT theory just minimizes the requirement of this knowledge by using of few trivial analogies, but it doesn't mean, it can form the only relevant explanation possible.

The AWT considers, the observable Universe is formed by "gradient driven" reality. This concept isn't very new in contemporary physics, but the Aether concept makes it quite easy to understand. Inside the random field of particles only the fluctuations of particle spatial density, i.e. the gradients can be observed. Depending on the ratio of mass/energy density, these fluctuations are having positive or negative curvature, which results in the attractive or repulsive forces on long/short distance scale. The important thing is, only these density gradients can be observed as a atemporal units of reality and only the gradients can serve for causal observation of another entities. This doesn't mean, the energy cannot spread by another way, i.e. without involving of density gradients, but the portion of inertial, gradient driven energy is considerably lower at this case.

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#27499 - 08/09/08 06:39 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Zephir]
Ellis Offline
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... the most general answer belongs in realm of physics, not semantics, math of informatics. This is because these sciences are abstract, which means, they're operating with concepts, which are itself a generalization (i.e. abstracts) of many entities of reality.

I think what you have written here is quite true, and I do not think that the analogy of semantics as a phase shift in the way it is meant in Physics is a truly helpful way of looking at it. Language is fluidly responsive it is true, but it also has to conform to rules (even recognised exceptions acknowledge the existence of these rules). When languages absorb new words and meanings they do so under their own rules regarding spelling and usage. For instance the present evolution of texting (SMS) is actually not the seemingly random mess we may think it is at first sight. In fact, in order for us to decode the message certain syntactical rules have to be followed otherwise the message is unlikely to make sense.

Actually I think that the flexibility of maths to respond to change far outweighs that of language.

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#27500 - 08/09/08 09:55 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Ellis]
Zephir Offline
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Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: Ellis
... ...present evolution of texting (SMS) is actually not the seemingly random mess we may think it is at first sight....
Well, the evolution of SMS specific language corresponds the fast cooling of particle system, during which the large number of tiny droplets appears in short period of time. Due its demand of high information density it can serve as a model case of language evolution at small scale.

The existence of analogies can serve as an evidence of more general/fundamental rules/laws of Nature, which we can try to decompose. While I appreciate your example, it still doesn't answer, why such analogy between evolution of language and particle systems exist?

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#27502 - 08/09/08 09:21 PM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Zephir]
Ellis Offline
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Zephir wrote:
Well, the evolution of SMS specific language corresponds the fast cooling of particle system, during which the large number of tiny droplets appears in short period of time. Due its demand of high information density it can serve as a model case of language evolution at small scale.

Good answer! However I feel that my point is that the SMS system, although it feels new is actually conforming to language rules. In fact it is especially interesting because it uses also the Asian rules regarding the writing of language with its use of graphic representation of sounds/tonal qualityt, eg gr8=great. By combining the two an interesting written language is developing. My argument is that this languae is actually conforming to existing rules with regard to syntax, and there has been minimum spread to spoken language. At the moment it is a written language only--- as is shorthand or the transcribing of phonetics!

Have you thought that maybe the development of music may give you a more direct analogy to follow?

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#27503 - 08/09/08 11:29 PM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Ellis]
Zephir Offline
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Quote:
SMS system, although it feels new is actually conforming to language rules
New laws are always evolving on background of underlying more general laws. Newly created laws cannot violate the general laws.

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#27505 - 08/10/08 05:53 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: Zephir]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Hi Zaphir.

Re your grammar analogy:

From your reply, it seems that you are applying your grammar analogy to the evolution of the laws of physics.

Do you not mean to say, rather, that it applies to the development of new forms of energy/matter, with the consequent complexity of interactions, arising as a result of, and consistent with, unchanging laws of physics?

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#27506 - 08/10/08 07:47 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: redewenur]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: redewenur
...applying your grammar analogy to the evolution of the laws of physics.

...or the other way around; using the laws of physics to make an analogy to laws of grammer.

Defining Laws vs. Rules might be helpful....

Would we say that there are laws or rules that govern and explain the construction of a flagellum, or the operation of a regulator of a particular gene?

The laws of physics can be used to explain how these operate, but only by understanding them through a reverse engineering process. From knowing the basic laws of physics, we can't predict the rules governing how a gene regulator will operate, or how a flagellum might be constructed; but we do see that those genetic/biologic rules don't violate the basic laws of physics.

~K

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#27507 - 08/10/08 08:32 AM Re: Inertial character of information [Re: redewenur]
Zephir Offline
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Registered: 07/01/08
Posts: 498
Originally Posted By: redewenur
...it applies to the development of new forms of energy/matter, with the consequent complexity of interactions, arising as a result of, and consistent with, unchanging laws of physics?...
Of course, for example the existence & formation of so called mixed/composite interactions is the direct consequence of the above rule. For example, the waves at the water surface are the result of composite interactions too: the sound waves spreading through underwater and surface tension/gravity force. The strong nuclear (electroweak) interaction is mixed interaction of weak nuclear interaction and electromagnetic interaction. In analogy, new so called gravitomagnetic interaction can be derived from motion of charge in gravity field. I may be responsible for number of anomalies, from ball lightning to pyramid phenomena. The force constant of composite interaction is always higher, then the simple product of force constants of both original forces.
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
...or the other way around; using the laws of physics to make an analogy to laws of grammer.....
Of course, analogies are super-symmetric (mem)branes, which can be used in both directions, until you go too deep into subject on both sides. They're analogous to density fluctuations in causal space.


Originally Posted By: Anonymous
..Defining Laws vs. Rules might be helpful..
Such distinguishing can be considered as a sort of phase transition, too. Here's no fundamental difference between laws and rules, but in scope. In addition, the rules are introduced artificially by human society ad-hoc. But at the moment, the introduction of rules follows some logical, predictable consequences, we can consider the rules as a physical laws as well - because we cannot avoid their appliance from long term perspective.
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
...the laws of physics can be used to explain how these operate, but only by understanding them through a reverse engineering process.
Only at the case, these physical laws aren't sufficiently general, so they're forming homologies (sibling), not analogies (child-parent hierarchy) in casual space. The problem with contemporary physics is, most of its laws are derived from more general physical laws by the same way, like gene expression - so they cannot be used for explanation of it without introduction of poorly conditioned generalization.

But at the moment, you've understood a sufficiently general laws, you can deduce the more derived ones on both sides of analogy, i.e. both physics, both genetics - at least conceptually. The AWT is just trying to fill these gaps in conceptual understanding.

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