Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online
0 registered (), 213 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
Is there anybody out there?
by True
11/20/19 02:22 AM
welcome to the newly developing glaciation period.
by paul
10/24/19 03:23 PM
Potatoes on Mars
by paul
10/24/19 02:55 PM
Fishing , baiting the hook.
by paul
10/24/19 02:43 PM
F=mv ... mv=F
by paul
10/24/19 02:37 PM
Top Posters (30 Days)
paul 4
True 1
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
#25928 - 05/04/08 03:20 AM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Revlgking]
big fat pig Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 97
the scriptures on which the mentioned 'isms' are built upon demand the rejection of all other 'isms' if one doesn't follow the scriptures of ~ism then they don't really represent the 'ism' for what it teaches.
_________________________
seize the day

Top
.
#25931 - 05/04/08 01:49 PM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: big fat pig]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
The above is another generalization and, therefore, untrue statement.

What's your point, BFP? That some Big Brother be appointed to impose scientism/secularism on all of us?

Think about this: The book of Genesis is totally inclusive. So are the Ten Commandments, which came later. This is the basis of Judaism.

Jesus was a Jew who lived and died as Jew. He made the attempt to reform Judaism and bring it back to being inclusive, from which it had strayed.


Edited by Revlgking (05/04/08 01:49 PM)

Top
#25936 - 05/04/08 06:18 PM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Revlgking]
big fat pig Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 97
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
The above is another generalization and, therefore, untrue statement.



in fact, it was not a generalization:

christians: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" John 14:6

muslims: "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war." Qur'an:9:5

jews: "The Jews are called human beings, but the non-Jews are not humans. They are beasts."
Talmud: Baba mezia, 114b

my point:

"for a just/moral multicultural society there needs to be tolerance; not totalitarianism"
and
"totalitarian 'isms' are never moral or just simply because they oppose freedom"

Quote:
Think about this: The book of Genesis is totally inclusive. So are the Ten Commandments, which came later. This is the basis of Judaism.

Jesus was a Jew who lived and died as Jew. He made the attempt to reform Judaism and bring it back to being inclusive, from which it had strayed.


what do you mean by 'inclusive'? judaism, christianity and islam do not respect the faiths of other belief systems, this was my initial argument <intolerance: rejection of all other 'isms'>.

Quote:
What's your point, BFP? That some Big Brother be appointed to impose scientism/secularism on all of us?


my point is that in a functional society there needs to be tolerance and not totalitarianism.


Edited by big fat pig (05/04/08 06:20 PM)
_________________________
seize the day

Top
#25941 - 05/04/08 09:48 PM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: big fat pig]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
BFP, it is good to dialogue with you. You are free to believe what you choose to believe; so am I.

You write
Quote:
my point is that in a functional society there needs to be tolerance and not totalitarianism.
I couldn't agree more!!!!

Then you comment:
Quote:
what do you mean by 'inclusive'? judaism, christianity and islam do not respect the faiths of other belief systems, this was my initial argument <intolerance: rejection of all other 'isms'>.

To make this stick, you will need to demonstrate that all Christians and Jews think alike.

You will find it easier to herd cats!!!!! laugh



Edited by Revlgking (05/04/08 09:52 PM)

Top
#25943 - 05/04/08 11:55 PM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Rev said:
To make this stick, you will need to demonstrate that all Christians and Jews think alike.

That is exactly what you do not need to demonstrate. Thought control is actually the aim of a totalitarian society. A functional and (to use one of your favourite words) an humane society is one that accepts many points of view, whilst, possibly continuing with their own beliefs. This is not often the result in a religious or ideology-driven society where control is seen as more important than freedom.

Rev I know you dislike interruptions but I have crashed on regardless since we are talking tolerance.

Top
#25945 - 05/05/08 12:23 AM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Revlgking]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Originally Posted By: Revlgking
BFP, it is good to dialogue with you. You are free to believe what you choose to believe; so am I.

To make this stick, you will need to demonstrate that all Christians and Jews think alike.

You will find it easier to herd cats!!!!! laugh


i don't think that this is a matter of belief but is rather a matter of semantics and definitions;

the thoughts and opinions of every true christian must be guided by the bible; the ~ of every true muslim must be guided by the qu'ran and still; the ~ of a true jew must be guided by the torah and the talmuds

this you can't argue with. the scriptures of all three of these religions demand the believer to reject the integrity of every other religion.

i understand that there have been many schisms in each of these religions, but they still hold true the idea that their faith is the 'one-and-only-true-path'

rev i understand that you are obliged to argue otherwise but the scriptures speak for themselves and those who try to over-ride the written scriptures of their religion aren't genuine followers, no offense.

Top
#25949 - 05/05/08 03:43 AM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Anonymous]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Anon, does this mean that when Jesus asks us to be gentle as doves we are expected to lay eggs? smile And what about the law about the stoning of disobedient children, required by the Bible? If we are expected to take the Bible at its word, it seems that, in practice, even the fundamentalists interpret the Bible.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#25952 - 05/05/08 06:49 AM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Did Jesus advocate the stoning of children?

Top
#25955 - 05/05/08 07:22 PM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Ellis
Did Jesus advocate the stoning of children?
Ellis, are you joking? Or is this a serious question?

If so, in the the spirit of dialogue, I ask: How much do you know about what it says of Jesus in the Gospels? Are you aware that he risked being stoned, on more than one occasion, because of what he said, and did, in the name of spiritual, social, political and economic reform?

Take a look at John 8:1-11, which tells the story of how he, publicly, defended the rights of a women. His action was a heroic one.He was for the rights of women, and children, before the law, long before our time.

BTW, what we call Palm Sunday was more than just an innocent and happy parade down some church aisle with people waving palms. When Jesus turned over the table of the crooked moneychangers--the ones who ran the Temple banking system--he no doubt sealed his fate (John 2:12-22.). It was this final act, in the name of economic justice, that led to his arrest and execution in the most horrible way.

THE JEWISH TEMPLE-AREA HOUSED THE CENTRAL JEWISH BANK
Are you aware that, in Jesus' time--and even before this--Temple money--gold, silver and bronze--were supposed to be pure metals, and they were supposed to circulate free of interest to fellow Jews?

WHO WERE THE MONEYCHANGERS?
Note that they were not called money exchangers--the kind we have today. Today, each nation has its own paper-money system (the fiat kind). Thus we have an exchange system.

But ancient moneychangers, particularly in Israel, were actually expected to melt down and change the stamp on each coin so that it became a Temple coin.

There are few historic details about how the banking system, in ancient times, actually operated. But it is not hard to imagine that certain honest moneychangers--for example, Matthew--took any foreign coins (the ones with graven images, as mentioned in the second commandment), melted them down and changed them--perhaps for a small fee--into Temple coins. Keep in mind that in ancient times coins circulated by weight, not by denomination.

WHY JESUS CALLED THE MONEYCHANGERS THIEVES
It is not hard to imagine that, in the melting process, crooks and thieves had, and no doubt took, the opportunity to debase any coins on deposit to them to their own profit. Often they would hold on to foreign coins because it was lawful (see. Deut. 23:19) for them to make loans to Gentiles and charge interest.


Edited by Revlgking (05/06/08 12:27 AM)

Top
#25965 - 05/06/08 01:36 AM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Revlgking]
big fat pig Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 97
i think that jesus was executed more because of his effect on the public rather than on "being good" riling up the public never really pays good; perhaps your remember "don't tase me bro!" which side do you support?

im certain that if someone in an islamic country started bad-mouthing their traditions, they would eventually be executed too. can you see where I'm coming from?

why do people instinctively side with the minority or the unfortunate?

on a side note, jesus did in fact advocate stoning children(among many other things) rev:

Matt 5:17-19
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
_________________________
seize the day

Top
#25970 - 05/06/08 03:12 AM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: big fat pig]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Rev wrote:

Anon, does this mean that when Jesus asks us to be gentle as doves we are expected to lay eggs? And what about the law about the stoning of disobedient children, required by the Bible? If we are expected to take the Bible at its word, it seems that, in practice, even the fundamentalists interpret the Bible.

I just questioned it. And yes I am serious because as an admitted pedant I do not like to see such illogical writing. You are coupling Jesus (and his New Testament) and the Bible (the Old Testament) in the one statement. Whilst it is possible that your reader will understand what you actually mean the way you have stated it is by no means clear, and that is the way misunderstandings are generated.

Top
#25971 - 05/06/08 03:44 AM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
From BFP
Quote:

Matt 5:17-19
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
Clever rebut, BFP. Touche! laugh I must use this the next time I dialogue with a fundamentalist Bible-thumper. Taking the Bible literally can be dangerous, eh?

BTW, in my Good News version Jesus does talk about "making the law come true". This could mean reforming and making it be in harmony with the law of LOVE, which he thought of as primary.

Do modern Ultra Orthodox Jews keep the old law, literally? I do not think so.

Personally, I have never accepted the Bible as a rule book.


Edited by Revlgking (05/06/08 03:53 AM)

Top
#25973 - 05/07/08 01:00 AM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Revlgking]
big fat pig Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 97
i once seen a documentary by richard dawkins; he was interviewing priest on the street and he asked how he felt about homosexuals, and what the bible said about them (homosexuals were stoned to death) so richard says "so you believe that homosexuals should be stoned to death like the bible dictates?" ...and the priest's lips started shaking and he looked very very nervous; he said nothing and richard backed off haha

be careful of your claims; many religious folk say stuff like "our holy books holds all conceivable knowledge possible" or "our holy book came directly from the supreme infallible being" claims of this tone always come from uneducated fanatics.


"Do modern Ultra Orthodox Jews keep the old law, literally? I do not think so."
im pretty sure that there are some communities who do exactly that.

"Jesus does talk about "making the law come true". This could mean reforming and making it be in harmony with the law of LOVE, which he thought of as primary."
it always bothered me that 'jesus' (who was supposed to be the manifestation of god himself) was very different from the Judaic god which was an angry, jealous, vengeful being, yet it said "god is the same today, yesterday and tomorrow" and few people seemed to notice
_________________________
seize the day

Top
#25978 - 05/07/08 06:50 PM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: big fat pig]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
BFP, thanks for your dialogue about the authority of the Bible.

IMO, the Bible has no more authority over us than we give it. I read it like I do any kind of media. Some of it is true and valuable; some of it is propaganda, and much of it is nonsense.

IMO, Jesus was a reformer, unitheist and uiversalist--
GØD is not the name of a super being. It is my acronym for that non-material whatever, in which we, and all the universe, live and have out being and, which at same time permeates all this is. Check out:
http://brainmeta.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=13600&hl=

PHYSICALISM
BFP, do you acknowledge that there is a non-material whatever? Or are you a total physicalist (materialist)?
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/physicalism/
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#25982 - 05/07/08 11:47 PM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Revlgking]
big fat pig Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 97
rev:"PHYSICALISM
BFP, do you acknowledge that there is a non-material whatever? Or are you a total physicalist (materialist)?"

i don't believe that there is a metaphysical plane of existance, i believe that all that is mystery today will eventually be explained empirically, the integrity of the material world cannot be debated, while the existance of a metaphysical dimension itself is simply a matter of opinion ...and the properties of the hypothetical metaphysical plane have never been defined(besides being invisible) i feel that there isn't enough reason or purpose to believe in a ~, i believe that the idea of ~ is purely speculation and superstition.
_________________________
seize the day

Top
#25985 - 05/08/08 04:09 AM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: big fat pig]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
As I understand it, the space into which the cosmos is expanding is not metaphysical, in the philosophical sense of the word; it is just not physical.

BTW, Can you imagine a scientist, on the edge of the cosmos, saying: "I just put my hand out into something, out there. and it is not physical? smile :lol: It really is an awesome universe, eh? It Makes me believe there really could be GØD, or GOD.


Edited by Revlgking (05/08/08 04:11 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#25988 - 05/08/08 03:04 PM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Revlgking

... It really is an awesome universe, eh? It makes me believe there really could be GØD, or GOD.
To this I will add: This fits my concept of GØD, not as A being, but as the NO-thing in which things originate and from which they emanate, evolve, circulate, expand and grow in all directions, unconsciously.

CONSCIOUNESS and SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS
As I understand it, science can only speculate when the first conscious and sentient beings appeared on earth. The same is true for the first self-conscious and human-like beings. I suspect they were when the first artists, the ones who began to record events on the walls of caves and became the first historians--or story tellers.

Humane beings? Who were the first humane beings? Again, speculation. I like to think that they were the first spiritually motivated people, philosophers--the first to say, as Moses learned in Exodus 3:14, "I am that I am"... and who I will be. Perhaps they were the philosopher/artists and story tellers who invented heaven and the gods, up there, who, in return for our giving them praise and respect, invite us to join them.

The first philosophers ... also invented hell--depicted in our bad dreams--in the hope that the fear of it would motivate us all the more to want to go to heaven--the place of pleasant dreams.


Edited by Revlgking (05/08/08 03:12 PM)

Top
#25989 - 05/08/08 04:50 PM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
"As I understand it, the space into which the cosmos is expanding is not metaphysical, in the philosophical sense of the word; it is just not physical."
I understand you're not playing word-games. There are some ideas that are difficult to understand and articulate. This is almost certainly one of them. I suspect that few if any physicists would consider this "space" non-physical.

Top
#25998 - 05/09/08 09:14 AM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
Quote:
"As I understand it, the space into which the cosmos is expanding is not metaphysical, in the philosophical sense of the word; it is just not physical." ~Revl.

I understand you're not playing word-games. There are some ideas that are difficult to understand and articulate. This is almost certainly one of them. I suspect that few if any physicists would consider this "space" non-physical.

Definitely not 3 (or 4 dimensional) "Riemannian Space" or "Minkowski Space;" and possibly not even "Hausdorff Space" (in which any two distinct points can be separated by a function). More likely it is something like "de Sitter Space" (the inside of a black hole?).

...but look at this about "our 3-D space." I knew it was an artifact....

"Dimensionality and fractals" ( doi:10.1016/S0960-0779(02)00028-0 )
Chaos, Solitons & Fractals, Volume 14, Issue 6, October 2002, Pages 831-838
B. G. Sidharth
Abstract
In this paper we first show that the usual three dimensionality of space, which is taken for granted, results from the spinorial behaviour of Fermions, which constitute the material content of the universe. It is shown that the resulting three dimensionality rests on two factors which have been hitherto ignored, viz., a Machian or holistic property and the stochastic underpinning of the universe itself.
However the dimensionality is scale dependent in the sense that at very large scales, or at very small scales, we encounter a different dimensionality, as indeed is borne out by observation and experiment. For example the large scale structures in the universe are cellular in nature on the one hand, and we encounter fractional charges and handedness at very small scales.
Finally it is shown how fractal dimensions can emerge and as an illustrative example it is shown how this could explain the magnetism of objects like Planets on the one hand and White Dwarf stars and Pulsars on the other.
crazy
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#26002 - 05/09/08 04:49 PM Re: Science Means Freedom [Re: samwik]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Samwik, you have given us some very heady stuff to think about. Much of it is new information to me. I only wish I had enough science to understand, in simple terms, what it means, in detail; and to be able to explain, in simple and practical terms, what it implies for our known universe.

BGS' Abstract mentions, "the stochastic underpinning of the universe itself."
Stochastic? Does this mean, having to do with random and variable processes. If so, it certainly helps me understand what the great mathematician, Alfred North Whitehead was trying to say when he wrote about process philosophy and theology.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_North_Whitehead
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/whitehead/#WPI
Out of his work came panENtheism, which, to avoid confusions with pantheism, I call unitheism.


Edited by Revlgking (05/09/08 04:54 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3



Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor
Facebook

We're on Facebook
Join Our Group

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.