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#25867 05/01/08 12:12 PM
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most of you are probably already aware of the idea of time dilation...
time dilation; the faster you move, or the greater your proximity to large masses: the rate of time will proportionally decrease(with respect to a datum position in space/time)

so the 'edge of the universe' seems more plausible; lets pretend that you had a 'perfect' space suit: if you were to approach the edge of the universe, statistically there would be fewer masses floating around and in this sense, the closer you get to the edge than the slower time would pass; and eventually you would reach a state where the rate of time(again with respect to the datum) would reach a lower limit, where it exists only because of your own mass. (so you could never physically cross over the edge; to the claustrophobic: this means we are trapped!! haha)


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bfp: "if you were to approach the edge of the universe, statistically there would be fewer masses floating around"

Two questions:

What makes you think the universe has an edge?

Why do you think there would fewer masses floating around? Is it because you suppose that you would be on the brink of a 'nothingness' beyond the universe?

(Sorry, that's three questions smile )

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Hello everyone,

Answer me a question(s). What is the shape of the universe? Is it round? Is it a cube? A sphere? Is it shaped like an hour glass as 2 universes connected by a black hole? When you get to the edge-how does it stop, and what is "stop"? You can't fall off the edge like the sailors feared before Columbus.

Best regards,
odin1



People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1


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Hi bfp, and Hi odin1.

Difficult to discuss without some rambling preamble, so let's ramble a bit.

Let's recap on some theory:

In the beginning was a point. The point was spacetime and all the energy thereof. Without the point there was neither spacetime, nor energy. Spacetime inflated and expanded. As it did so, it cooled. As it cooled, fundamental particles were formed. From the fundamental particles, the lightest elements were formed. From the lightest elements, stars were formed. From the stars, galaxies were formed. While that was happening, and ever thereafter, space continued to expand (or stretch, if you prefer). Such has been the rate of expansion that most of the universe now lies beyond the observable limit of 13.7 billion light years. There's an observable limit because it all began about 13.7 billion years ago, so light has had time to travel only 13.7 billion light-years - in a billion years from now, an observer would be able to see for 14.7 billion light years.

So, how much of the universe can we not see?

"The universe is at least 156 billion light-years wide." 24 May 2004
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/mystery_monday_040524.html

The mentioned limit of observation is often referred to as the 'edge' of the universe, but obviously it's not. Whilst our observable universe is necessarily spherical, we don't know about unobservable part. We don't even know if the physical laws are the same. We can try to deduce, extrapolate, speculate or whatever, but we cannot know.

I would be very interested to see what anyone can find on the net about this subject. Beware though: there's a high percentage of conflicting information, mis-reporting and plain nonsense out there, so it's well worth at least checking the sources before taking an article seriously.

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Originally Posted By: redewenur
bfp: "if you were to approach the edge of the universe, statistically there would be fewer masses floating around"

Two questions:

What makes you think the universe has an edge?

Why do you think there would fewer masses floating around? Is it because you suppose that you would be on the brink of a 'nothingness' beyond the universe?

(Sorry, that's three questions smile )


It is known that the universe has an edge because in the hubble telescope other universes can be clearly seen beyond our own.

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Originally Posted By: Rallem
It is known that the universe has an edge because in the hubble telescope other universes can be clearly seen beyond our own.

You're mistaken, Rallem. If you can provide a link to the source of your info, I'm sure we'll be able to find out why.

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I'll have to get you a url for this info when I get home, because I am at work and the site is blocked.

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BFP, et al, I presume that all of you know that you are dialoguing about what I mean when I use the anagram, GØD?

If my question is meaningless to you, we can always dialogue, in fun and good faith, about it, okay? laugh

Last edited by Revlgking; 05/02/08 10:11 PM.

G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
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I cannot find right now where I got this information redewenur, but it would appear that you are right about me being mistaken because if other universes have been detected it was not by the Hubble Space Telescope. I did see a show on NASA television where someone whom I don't know or can't remember was talking about space flight in our Universe and he pointed out that there were other Universes and demonstrated how far they were from our own universe. The man was asked whether it was possible for us to get to these other Universes and his short answer was no, because he said that we had no idea what was between our own Universe and even the nearest other Universe and he said that even if we could tackle that problem we would have no idea on what form of physical laws that Universe follows until we get there and then would be a bad time to find out that in another Universe its time runs backwards, or even that in that universe magic was the predominate force of physical law and not actually physics. I will try to find this out for you redewenur, but I will warn you that this is all from my memory which has been less than dependable lately.

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Hi Rallem.

There are a few distinctly different scientifically legitimate hypotheses regarding the 'multiverse' that aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Wiki contains quite a good outline of these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

The only edge I can perceive within these hypotheses is that of the kind of boundary represented by the hypothetical wormhole, or by an event such as the Big Bang. Theorists seem generally convinced that our spacetime continuum is either infinite, and therefore boundless, or finite and unbounded, meaning that if you go 'straight' for long enough, you wind up back where you started. Currently, I think the situation is that there's no evidence for either.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
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I'm a little confused. In reference to another universe. How do you know when the one we live in ends? What governs the "next" universe? I was under the impression "another universe" would have to be in another dimension.
definition of universe:

"The Universe is most commonly defined as everything that physically exists: the entirety of space and time, all forms of matter, energy and momentum, and the physical laws and constants that govern them."

I am referring to the gentleman that works with NASA Rallem was talking about.

odin1






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"Answer me a question(s). What is the shape of the universe? Is it round? Is it a cube? A sphere? Is it shaped like an hour glass as 2 universes connected by a black hole?"

we cannot be certain; every possibility sounds plausible; even the one with the 'edge' which i talked about

"When you get to the edge-how does it stop, and what is "stop"? You can't fall off the edge like the sailors feared before Columbus."

this is what i was trying to explain with 'time dilation' we need not fear falling off the edge because it is impossible to get close enough to do so.

a lot of the things we're talking about here is just pure speculation, what gives us the idea that the universe has a shape at all? or that there are other universes? i don't think that one can argue one idea to be more plausible than another


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Hi odin1

Firstly, we should remind ourselves that while some eminent scientists insist that, logically, other universes must exist, there is no proof.

Re the definition of universe: We can define universe in two ways: either as including any other universes as part of it, irrespective of their accessibility, or by considering each as a separate universe. Scientists appear to prefer to differentiate between the 'universe', as commonly understood, and 'multiverse', for the purpose of communicating these ideas unambiguously.

"I'm a little confused. In reference to another universe. How do you know when the one we live in ends?"

Confused? You’re not alone.

This universe has no end in the conventional sense of a connecting point with something beyond it, unless we consider the possiblity of inter-universe wormholes (Schwarzschild wormholes). Metaphorically (and reducing the spatial dimensions from three to two for the sake of understanding the concept) it's described as being either like a flat sheet that extends to infinity in all directions or, alternatively, like the surface of a balloon upon which an ant might crawl indefinitely without finding an end.

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But if this Univers has no end then how do we know it is expanding faster every day? Would the galaxies we see separating further apart every day be enough to to base a theory upon if the Universe were infinate as well as the posible galaxies we cannot see? If this Universe were not finite wouldn't a theory or hypothesis of an expanding Universe be sort of like a flat Earth Theory?

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Hello everyone,

Boy, this is a complicated subject! You know, I think this is one of these things you can't just visualize in your head, it can only be understood with numbers.

The problem I have with this subject is if the universe is expanding what is it expanding in to? For example, if you blow up a ballon it expands, but it has the "space" for the expansion and we understand what that "space" is. But when you talk universe which is defined as everything that physically exist even momentum as defined-what else is there? I believe in some way our psyche must be involved in the equation or our awareness
of the universe we live in . I believe in some way black holes
connect these different universes. I also believe our perception of a 3D universe "tricks" us and we are aware of only what we can comprehend. I said in an earlier post on another thread I really don't believe we know what space is. We explain it in distance and vacum. I believe there is more to it that that.

I am ready for the attacks, so go ahead.

best regards,
odin1


People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1


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Do you think there is a difference between black holes and worm holes?

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Hello Rallem,

Yes, with my limited knowledge I believe they are. I beleive a wormhole is just a short cut from point A to point B through the fabric of time and space.

A black hole I believe is the "power source" and glue that maintains order in the universe. Let me be a little bit clearer if it is possible for me. I said in another post that I thought black holes were present in each galaxy at the center. All the matter in that galaxy rotates around the center, which is a black hole. I think it takes about 2X10 8th years for our galaxy to make a complete rotation. Imagine if there were no black holes in the center of the galaxies, what would fuel the rotation? Now, we have orderly little galaxies floating around in space instead of solar systems drifting aimlessly in the universal expanse. Perhaps, and probably there would not even be star systems with planets without blackholes.

Something to consider.

Also, I think this could possible have something to do with time travel, but is not of concern in this thread.

best regards,
odin1


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Rallem: "Would the galaxies we see separating further apart every day be enough to base a theory upon if the Universe were infinite as well as the possible galaxies we cannot see? If this Universe were not finite wouldn't a theory or hypothesis of an expanding Universe be sort of like a flat Earth Theory?"

The general assumption is that what's happening in the observable universe is also happening in the unobservable part, and that the known laws of physics also apply beyond that part; but it's not provable. There’s no way can ever know the characteristics of the unobservable universe. Philosophy, reason etc, we can have aplenty, but no proof.

odin1: "The problem I have with this subject is if the universe is expanding what is it expanding in to?"

It's a problem everyone has, I guess. I do. Here's a long answer from Prof David Kornreich:

http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/question.php?number=274

And here's a short answer from Prof Michio Kaku:

"Then it is clear now that the universe is expanding in hyperspace, and that the original Big Bang took place in hyperspace. If we cannot visualize hyperspace, it is only because we spend our time in the third dimension."

odin1: "I said in an earlier post on another thread I really don't believe we know what space is. We explain it in distance and vacuum. I believe there is more to it that that."

People working at the LHC, CERN agree with you, and hope to be able to tell us more in the next few years.

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I am glad Dr. Kaku agrees with my thoughts on the 3D world we live in.

I read an article one time on dimensions. An analogy used the article was this:

If you were in your house and decided to walk outside, but you could not look up--you could only look straight ahead of where you were going. And once you got outside, you see a shadow gliding on the ground in front of you, unaware that a cloud was passing over the sun above. So, you don't know what the shadow is. You have no explanation for it because you are missing part of the information you need to determine what it is.

I believe we are slave to this scenerio all the time in questions looming over us about the universe.

best regards,
odin1


People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1


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by the way rendewenur,

I read the link you posted and it was very informing. I appreciate it, I would encourage anyone else that is interested in this thread to read it.

Thanks,
odin1


People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1


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