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#29040 - 01/05/09 05:52 AM Re: Humanzee? Ape Human Cross [Re: Ellis]
Iztaci Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Rocky Mt. West
Originally Posted By: Ellis
Whilst I agree with you that 'morality' is in the eye of the beholder I nonetheless feel that within the creation of a human-chimp (or other ape) chimera there is an underlying question regarding the morality of doing so. The aim of such an endeavour seems very suspect. The resultant cross would be likely to be stronger than a human in many aspects, but likely to be less intelligent. The uses that such a class of hybrids could be used for would be limited but open to horrific exploitation. As I mentioned earlier, such selection would produce a group ideal as a slave class, not only as servants but also as soldiers. .

It seems to me that the immorality of this idea would be more in the fact that the result of this exploitaton had been anticipated and we had done nothing about it, rather than the act itself.


Your point is well taken. I think you have nailed the likely consequences to the proverbial wall. But, that is not my agrument. You've answered my arguments with a bunch of stuff I already agree with.

The idea of a crossing of primate DNA is not attractive to me at all. But I'm not interested in the myriad opinions on that. I'm interested in what will happen whether I like it or not.

I think a moral argument is about as likely to change anything as a Papal admonition. People show up by the millions to hear him tell them not to bag thier best friend's old lady. Not to spank the pup. Not to lie. Not to cheat the market, not to cap the guy that's pissing you off, and so on and so on and so on.... We've been attending Papal admonitions for centuries and thus far, very few, (very, very few), have ever given them a moment's thought let alone try to live in accordance with them. Everyone cheers and applaudes the Pope. Then they head out to a party where anything goes.

Quote:
It seems to me that the immorality of this idea would be more in the fact that the result of this exploitaton had been anticipated and we had done nothing about it, rather than the act itself.


Okay! Let's see if we can solve something here. I agree. We are going to wake up some morning and realize we ain't done squat. So... what exactly do we, the great unwashed masses, DO about it? Write a letter to Gov. Blagojavitch? Start a grass-roots rebellion? Petition the Pope? Donate to Saddleback Church? Let's have it. I'm all ears. I've read your posts and believe you to be sincere and level-headed. Tell me what you propose and I may just jump aboard.

And that is my argument. Not whether you and I like what's going on.

_________________________
When you talk to me like I'm five, I want to write on you with a crayon. -- Joanna Hoffman

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#29056 - 01/06/09 12:45 AM Re: Humanzee? Ape Human Cross [Re: Iztaci]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Left to its own devices my cynicism will give yours a run for its money. I cannot suggest prayer or religion as I don't think there's ever been anyone listening. By now he, she or it should have done something about it! I can't suggest lobbying politicians because we all know how that ends up, and unless we ordinary people can see something in it for ourselves we are not going to want to change anything. So that's a bit depressing!!

However now and again public distaste and pressure can do good. Examples of disinterested good are very hard to find but arguably could include-- the result in South Africa, Ghandi's predominantly peaceful demonstrations regarding independence, and more recently in my country an apology was made to the aboriginal people for the behaviour of the colonising Europeans who took over their country (whilst this may seem paltry it is a first step to better times) . Do not forget that the use of poison gas is forbidden, that use of nuclear weapons has happened only twice in 60 years and slavery is illegal in all countries. OK there's lots wrong, after all I am writing this with dreadful news coming from the Middle East, but some things are improving. Most of us desire the same thing,-- a home, a family, friends enough money to support orselves and some happiness along the way. It's basic and it's what most of us want.

Since we are such simple creatures it should be possible to sometimes make decisions which are in the public good. This would be one of them... ie no manufacturing of beings to be slaves or live bodies for experimentation. However I do share your fear (but maybe not your conviction) that such research will prove irresistible for some. This raises the question--- should there be a limit to the suitability of some subjects for such research? We condemn Dr Mengele, but his research in some areas was still used to advance knowledge, and save lives. Now there's a dilemma!

Meanwhile I guess we have to try a bit harder! And have the courage to go for change when it is needed. As humans that is hard to do. We all like the familiar and comfortable and need a shake up from time to time.

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#29058 - 01/06/09 04:15 AM Re: Humanzee? Ape Human Cross [Re: Ellis]
Iztaci Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Rocky Mt. West
Originally Posted By: Ellis
Left to its own devices my cynicism will give yours a run for its money. I cannot suggest prayer or religion as I don't think there's ever been anyone listening. By now he, she or it should have done something about it! I can't suggest lobbying politicians because we all know how that ends up, and unless we ordinary people can see something in it for ourselves we are not going to want to change anything. So that's a bit depressing!!

However now and again public distaste and pressure can do good. Examples of disinterested good are very hard to find but arguably could include-- the result in South Africa, Ghandi's predominantly peaceful demonstrations regarding independence, and more recently in my country an apology was made to the aboriginal people for the behaviour of the colonising Europeans who took over their country (whilst this may seem paltry it is a first step to better times) . Do not forget that the use of poison gas is forbidden, that use of nuclear weapons has happened only twice in 60 years and slavery is illegal in all countries. OK there's lots wrong, after all I am writing this with dreadful news coming from the Middle East, but some things are improving. Most of us desire the same thing,-- a home, a family, friends enough money to support orselves and some happiness along the way. It's basic and it's what most of us want.

Since we are such simple creatures it should be possible to sometimes make decisions which are in the public good. This would be one of them... ie no manufacturing of beings to be slaves or live bodies for experimentation. However I do share your fear (but maybe not your conviction) that such research will prove irresistible for some. This raises the question--- should there be a limit to the suitability of some subjects for such research? We condemn Dr Mengele, but his research in some areas was still used to advance knowledge, and save lives. Now there's a dilemma!

Meanwhile I guess we have to try a bit harder! And have the courage to go for change when it is needed. As humans that is hard to do. We all like the familiar and comfortable and need a shake up from time to time.


1. Asst, coach to coach, timidly, at basketball game:

“Gee coach, we’re behind 42 to 115, our top 4 players are benched for fouls and there’s only 3 minutes left in the game. I think we may lose this one.”

Coach, purple-faced and shouting:

“Shut up with your *^&*^%$% cynicism! You’re going to demoralize the players with all that negative blabber!”

Cynicism, you say ? Why do some people who obviously don’t like reality call it cynicism?

2. An apology by people who weren’t even born when the travesty began, to people who have been dead for decades. Seems paltry? Nah… I don’t think so. It’s so far beyond paltry it gives new meaning to the word absurdity. There are things like this going on here in the US too. And every few days Bush and other heads of state issue a “strong condemnation” on some rogue action by some rogue state or other. How many of them can remember who they condemned and for what an hour later?

3. “Since we are such simple creatures it should be possible to sometimes make decisions which are in the public good.”
Once again, we get to “we should”. I’ve already agreed with a dozen of your we shoulds. I agree with this one too. But I’d much rather see some “we cans” I can’t think of any. I’m looking for someone who can. My whole original post was a statement to that effect. “it should be possible”? Okay, I agree. Now, HOW? What good is a should without a how? Or even an idea of a how? I keep asking how… and you keep answering we should.

Are we going anywhere with this, Ellis. Or am I just cynical for asking?


Edited by Iztaci (01/06/09 04:18 AM)
_________________________
When you talk to me like I'm five, I want to write on you with a crayon. -- Joanna Hoffman

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#29059 - 01/06/09 04:57 AM Re: Humanzee? Ape Human Cross [Re: Iztaci]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Perhaps we could kill an Archduke and start a war? Or fire tonnes of rockets on 'sitting-duck' children just because we can?

I don't think we can get very far as individuals, but if we were to work together the force of the people would be a mighty one. It has worked before and it could work again!

So I think you have argued me into a corner. Deep down I do feel that humans can make the choice for development and progress that tries not to disadvantage others, but I think you are probably right, my argument is going nowhere. Nowhere short of revolution that is!!

PS The Apology here was very much sought after by the present day descendents of the original dispossessed aboriginals. Don't forget this all happened relatively recently for eg. children of mixed ancestory were removed from their parents in the 1970's in this country, to be adopted by white families. Some are still alive today as are their families. Hopefully Sorry Day will be just a start.


Edited by Ellis (01/06/09 05:00 AM)
Edit Reason: Change 'should' to 'could'!

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#29060 - 01/06/09 08:08 AM Re: Humanzee? Ape Human Cross [Re: Ellis]
Iztaci Offline
Member

Registered: 11/25/08
Posts: 84
Loc: Rocky Mt. West
I guess I downplayed the Australian situation a bit. Our situation is a whole lot sillier. Sure, we stole this country and slaughtered the natives. But how realistic is it to suggest we give it back? I hope your Sorry Day does some good. As for us here in America, we should be apologizing for Barry Manilow and Hummers. Things we could actually get rid of. Things that make the rest of the world hate us. And rightfully so.

Well, maybe I did argue you into a corner but remember that I was already in that corner. Clueless. Just waiting for someone to come along and clue me in. I do, however, have to poke around a bit and look under some rocks before I sign on to any new idea. I guess that could be called cynical, but it seems that when I neglected to do that, I wound up eating a lot of tofu and parsly soup.

If you ever do come up with something exciting, let me know. I've been poking around for fifty or so years and I'm ready for something a little less violent than what I've seen so far. I might not be able to light the fire but I could throw some sticks on it.

Regards.
_________________________
When you talk to me like I'm five, I want to write on you with a crayon. -- Joanna Hoffman

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#29346 - 02/03/09 08:54 PM Re: Humanzee? Ape Human Cross [Re: Mike Kremer]
awalshe09 Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/03/09
Posts: 3
If there was a possibility of Humanzees developing a conscience, you would have a difficult dilemma on your hands."

First off, many animals have shown have a conscience, and who has ever cared about their treatment? Chimpanzees have the same intelligence level as some Down syndrome child, more than some DSC in fact. Chimpanzees are able to communicate, they can be taught sign language, they show remorse, happiness, humor, grief and anger. What is conciseness?

Is it possible, I doubt it, or some so called Scientist without a conscience would have already done it.
_________________________
power your world with a wind generator

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#29353 - 02/04/09 02:20 PM Re: Humanzee? Ape Human Cross [Re: awalshe09]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...

"Is it possible, I doubt it, or some so called Scientist without a conscience would have already done it."

Maybe. Or, it could be that such a scientist would worry that if he did it, his career might be over.

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