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Quote:
I also wonder how grey areas like 'justice' can be handled by GOD.
Kallog, go ahead and wonder. But take note that you are slipping back into the practice of thinking of GOD as a person--one who is a human-like being who does things. You and I are free to choose, or not choose, the way of justice. IMO, GOD is the over-all principle (law) of good with which you and I can connect if we so choose, which contains the principle of justice. Or, we could speak of evolution as a principle (law), or gravity, electro magnetism, whatever. Going against the principles of life, of all nature (of GOD) has consequences. Try to break the law of gravity without it breaking you.

Me? Not being a fool, I choose to work with GOD, because I know that the consequences are good--and not just for me, but for all of us and for all that is in nature.

Making 'god' a person makes for an easy target--an idol to be mocked and/or smashed, by any thinking person, not just by bright and clever atheists.

There is a poem which has the words: GOD has no hands, but out hands--no feet, no voice, whatever ... but our hands, feet, voice, etc., to get things done. To be, or not to be, to do, or not to do, are all up to us.
The same is true here
Quote:
Surely it doesn't give humans more rights than animals, any more than it surely doesn't give whites more rights than blacks, or men more than women.
And here
Once again, take note of what you are saying.
Quote:
So does it include justice for animals?
And here
Quote:
How does it manage animals eating each other?


Last edited by Revlgking; 05/04/11 03:40 AM.

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By the way, speaking of our relationship with GOD and evidence for the reality of GOD, Jesus taught: "I pray that they may all be one." This is on the crest of the United Church of Canada.

Father! May they be in us, just as you are in me. and I am in you. May they be one so that the world will know you sent me. I gave them the same glory, so that they may be one just as you and I are one."(John 17:21-22).

In other words, reject it or accept it, it is clear that Jesus taught: GOD is personal in persons and is as real as persons are real.

Last edited by Revlgking; 05/07/11 04:12 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
you are slipping back into the practice of thinking of GOD as a person--one who is a human-like being who does things. You and I are free to choose, or not choose, the way of justice. IMO, GOD is the over-all


Your so called GOD-non-person is actually the God of the bible. That makes you just another irritating Christian.

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Perhaps it is the use of the word God (or GOD)that leads to trouble. What would happen if we talked about the "Zero Point Field" or the "Omega Point", or something with a more scientific sound, instead?


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Perhaps it is the use of the word God (or GOD)that leads to trouble. What would happen if we talked about the "Zero Point Field" or the "Omega Point", or something with a more scientific sound, instead?
Go ahead! Feel free to use one you like, or a variety. Jesus used his own special term. He used the Aramaic word, Abbawoon, meaning the source of all things. We translate it 'Father'.

Kallog commented to me: "Your so called GOD-non-person is actually the God of the bible."

Not really. In his book THE EVOLUTION OF GOD, Robert Wright makes the point that the idea of 'god' is not a static one--even in the Bible. Like everything else, it has evolved.

For example, the Hebrew Bible, which we call the Old Testament, uses a number of names for god. The very first verse of the Bible uses, Elohim--referring to "all the powers that be". As you suggest, Bill: a scientist could translate this as, "From Zero Point to Omega point".

In Genesis 2, Yahweh Adonai is used. YA was a kind of warlord who looked after his "chosen people' and helped them defeat their enemies and their gods. At times he is also depicted as a king. The idea of monotheism evolved quite late.

Kallog, you add: "That makes you just another irritating Christian." How about if I agreed with you? Would this help? laugh

BTW, Kallog, except for the fact that we agree that "GOD is Love (Agape)" and that we ought to love one another, despite our differences, Christians are far from having one mind. Is this what irritates you?


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Originally Posted By: Rev
The idea of monotheism evolved quite late.


There seems to be some evidence that they picked up the idea while they were reluctant guests of the Egyptians.

Whilst I would not consider you to be any particular brand of Christian, I can see what Kallog means; you do tend to quote from the Bible rather a lot. I suspect that Kallog would equate that with your producing evidence from "Lord of the Rings".


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Bill S, check out www.united-church.ca and www.ucobserver.org My particular brand of religion allows lots of wiggle-room. Otherwise, I would not stay involved.

I usually quote the Bible when I find it helps me communicate what I want to say.

Last edited by Revlgking; 05/09/11 01:38 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
lots of wiggle-room. Otherwise, I would not stay involved.

It provides so much wigggle room that there's basically no meaning in it at all! Whatever justice we choose is part of GOD so it's all GODly. That provides no particular direction or anything. It just says "whatever will be will be". I think you're making a pretense of having a non-conventional religion but then you throw in the same old bible-God ideas like omnipotence, justice, goodness, divinity, ever-lasting, within us, having some motive, etc.

Quote:

I usually quote the Bible when I find it helps me communicate what I want to say.

I even do too. I once complained to my Christian workmates how the bible misled me by emphasising the importance of washing the inside of the cup over the outside. But it turned out that the outside of my cup was getting all grotty and coffee-stained despite regularly washing the inside using the water-cooler.

But yes, you might just as well quote from a movie or Hitler as from the Bible or Jesus. I think that would help to clarify things in your own mind too, by taking away the illusion of some people's religious opinions being more important because of their popularity.

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
BTW, Kallog, except for the fact that we agree that "GOD is Love (Agape)" and

GOD isn't love. You got upset when I suggested GOD was the universe and it turned out to be more than just the universe. Obviously such a thing is also more than just love. These self-inconsistencies are what's more irritating. Are you going to correct them and open up your idea to direct attack, or retain them to keep the cloud of confusion hanging all around it?

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Bill S, check out www.united-church.ca and www.ucobserver.org My particular brand of religion allows for lots of wiggle-room. Otherwise, I would not stay involved with the UCC.
Bill, keep in mind that I use the expression "wiggle-room" in the same way that I use words like 'grace' and 'spirituality'.

The following forum, where I do some of my writing, is sponsored by the United Church. It is about grace and spirituality and is open to anyone--to all people of all faiths and of no faith--who is gracious and spiritually-minded enough to avoid being abusive to others.
http://www.wondercafe.ca/

Here is another site, which I find interesting, this is open to Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc.

http://www.spiritualityandpractice.com/

Last edited by Revlgking; 05/09/11 10:52 PM.

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BTW, I just had this dialogue, below, on wondercafe.ca
=============================================
Originally Posted By: Indira
Rev. King's "Inclusive Christianity" is fabulous. I love it. ...
With or Without Labels ... The Way We Live is More Important than our Label. :-)
Thanks, Indra!

I realize that your post was made some time ago, but the point you make is still relevant. GOD is not about passively believing in a creed with a set of rules. GOD is about putting the rules to work, about having an active faith that get things done for the good of all, regardless of class, race or creed, or no creed.

WHY I USE THE SPECIAL ACRONYMS GOD AND G0D
==========================================

Keep in mind that, for me, GOD is not an idol--that is, a three-dimensional being with a name, one who, in fantasy or reality, is separate and apart from us and from creation. This is why I like to use the acronym GOD--that which is totally inclusive and in which all of existence, including us, is included. GOD is that which generates abundant life, organizes life at it is, and delivers that which is desirable.

When I write about god in me, I write G0D. Note the zero '0'. I think of existence as within GOD. At the same time, I can think of G0D as within in every particle of being, including me.

BTW, when atheists challenge traditional theists to prove that "God exists"--the kind of god both have in mind is an idol, one created by the imagination. I usually tell them:

"I agree with you. This is why I am not a traditional theist. GOD, for me, does not exist as a three-D being. GOD is beyond having to play the existence game. However, GOD is, paradoxically speaking, around existence, and also within and through it.

When I have this kind of dialogue with atheists, it usually drives some of them up the wall. They usually have an easy time targeting monotheists (theists).

However, atheists usually walk away from challenging those who write about panentheism/unitheism, because they do not find it so easy to answer the ideas of process theology as expressed by Alfred North Whitehead and expounded by the Rev. Charles Hartshorne--very progressive kinds of theologians.

Process theology talks about, panentheism, not unlike unitheism--Farr and King. See www.unitheist.org originated by the artist, and friend of mine, Warren Farr.

Graciously, on Facebook, Warren credits me with concocting the word 'unitheism' earlier than he did. Be that as it may: Let's all give the credit to where it is due--GOD. Both Warren and I simply took the idea from GOD and are now passing it on.


Last edited by Revlgking; 05/09/11 10:48 PM.

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Quote:
Rev. King's "Inclusive Christianity"


Surely that's not what unitheism is!


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Bill S: What do you think unitheism is?


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I thought unitheism was more generic than any form of Christianity, or any other specific religion. Embracing all, perhaps, but not being a "branch" of any.


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Christian? It means anointed by the Spirit of GOD, the spirit of agape-Love. Christ? The One anointed by the Spirit of GOD. Sounds quite generic to me.

Catholic? [From Latin or from Greek. Holos is the Greek for whole] It means universal; that which knows no frontiers--all-embracing, comprehensive, of interest and of use to all people. It, too, sounds very generic, don't you think?






Last edited by Revlgking; 05/10/11 02:58 AM.

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
spirituality and is open to anyone--to all people of all faiths and of no faith--who is gracious and spiritually-minded enough to avoid being abusive to others.


How about people who're gracious enough to give others the tools useful for determining if they're deceiving themselves?

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THE FOLLOWING WAS SENT TO ME BY A FRIEND. IT IS FROM NEXUS MAGAZINE.

In my opinion, the zero in G0D symbolizes the ALPHA POINT--that from which all things evolve, unfold.

The O in GOD, symbolizes THE OMEGA "POINT"(Should that be POINTS in all directions?)--That towards which the universe is evolving, as suggested by the French Jesuit Pierre Teilhard de Chardin a paleontologist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_Point

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

==================================================================



1. What exactly is 'The Zero Point Energy Field'?
The Field is the Zero Point Field, a subatomic field of unimaginably large quantum energy in so-called "empty space". It's absolutely everywhere. If you add up all the movement of all the particles of all varieties in the universe, you come up with a vast inexhaustible energy source all sitting there unobtrusively in the background of the empty space around us, like one all-pervasive, supercharged backdrop. To give you some idea of the magnitude of that power, the energy in a single cubic yard of 'empty' space is enough to boil all the oceans of the world.



The Field connects everything in the universe to everything else, like some vast invisible web. The papers published by these scientists written about in The Field show that the solid stable stuff we call matter is an illusion and is simply subatomic particles constantly moving and being gripped on by the background sea of energy. Everything in our world, no matter how heavy or large, boils down to a collection of electric charges interacting with the Zero Point Field. It's a bit like the Force in Star Wars. As quantum waves also encode information, it also as though, on the tiniest level of reality, a memory of the universe for all time is contained in empty space that each of us is always in touch with.



2. Why is the discovery of the Zero Point Field so significant?
Up until now, scientists have subtracted out this extra quantum energy because they felt it was not important. But a number of scientists, from top-ranking institutions such as Princeton and Stanford University in the US and many prestigious institutions in Europe, have realized that the Zero Point Field has enormous implications. Astrophysicists have called the ZPF a 'cosmic free lunch'. If successful in harnessing the limitless energy of so-called 'empty space', these scientists may be able to create anti-gravity WARP drives and create automobiles that run without fossil fuel. It might also open up the possibility that man may be able to travel beyond his own solar system. Perhaps more important, the existence of the Zero Point Field implies that all matter in the universe is interconnected by quantum waves, which are spread out through time and space, and can carry on to infinity, tying one part of the universe to every other part. The idea of The Field might just offer a scientific explanation for the spiritual beliefs of many religions that there is such a thing as a life force.



3. Are human beings made of this same basic material?
Human beings, on their most fundamental level, are packets of quantum energy constantly exchanging information with this heaving energy sea. The frontier scientists I interviewed have amassed evidence showing that living things emit a weak radiation, and that this may be one of the most crucial aspects of biological processes. A German physicist called Fritz-Albert Popp has discovered that humans emit highly coherent photons - the tiniest particles of light. One of the most essential sources of these are DNA, which may mean that DNA uses the wave frequencies of this 'light' to drive all the processes of the body. Other tests show that animals of the same species 'suck' up the light emitted from each other. This activity could explain the silent communication that occurs between animals, and why flocks of birds or schools of fish, for instance, are able to achieve incredible, instantaneous feats of synchronized movement.



4. Arthur C. Clarke, Bernie Siegel and Larry Dossey have all hailed The Field as providing a radical new view of the world. What sorts of controversies have been uncovered?
One discovery is that every molecule emits its own unique frequency, which is used for communication. French scientists have shown that you can record the frequency of a molecule, play it to another molecule and the signal itself can take the place of chemicals in initiating biological processes. The prevailing idea - that chemical reactions occur because chemicals collide with each other - has always been too dependent upon chance and requires a good deal of time. It cannot account for the speed of biological processes-like anger, joy, sadness or fear. Perhaps most controversial of all, the scientists working on the frontier have also discovered that the basic of all the brain's functions have to do with the interaction between the brain and the Zero Point field. New evidence shows the brain's conversations with the body might also occur on the quantum level, with waves and frequencies, rather with chemical or electrical impulses alone. In fact, studies in America on humans and animals show that the cerebral cortex responds to certain limited bands of frequencies.



As incredible as it seems, it appears that when we see things, we are reading information from the Zero Point Field on a quantum level and our brain 'reads out' this information to create the images we see in front of us. Some scientists have gone as far as to say that our memories don't sit inside our heads at all. Our brains are simply the retrieval and read-out mechanism of the ultimate storage medium - The Field.

===============================================

MY FRIEND TOLD ME:

I first became aware of Zero Point Field Energy (which is sub-quantum) about 12 years ago in NEXUS Magazine. At that time, it was being dabbled with but was mostly theory. I've been "ready" for this for over a decade now. The rubber has hit the road !!!

=================

5 Minute Overview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D33yza_zRJ8&NR=1


10 Minute Overview

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoAKlaq1a_Y&feature=related


2 Minute Lemon Test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5FaeufdUrc&feature=related


Last edited by Revlgking; 05/10/11 02:51 PM. Reason: Always a good idea!

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Rev,
I checked all your links and the last three all say links removed by user. Do you have any other links to the same or similar material? Thanks.


If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose

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Originally Posted By: Rev
Christian? It means anointed by the Spirit of GOD, the spirit of agape-Love. Christ? The One anointed by the Spirit of GOD. Sounds quite generic to me.

Catholic? [From Latin or from Greek. Holos is the Greek for whole] It means universal; that which knows no frontiers--all-embracing, comprehensive, of interest and of use to all people. It, too, sounds very generic, don't you think?


I am sure that no one doubts your etymological prowess, Rev; but I was referring to the fact that a personal God, of the sort which you suggest is not espoused by panentheists, is central to Christian belief.

I am unsure as to where the "Catholic" bit came from, but I have long been aware that the true definition of the term seems sadly distant from any Catholic Church of which I have had experience.

Time's short at the moment, but I'll give your longer post some attention a.s.a.p.


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Rev, I have just read your longer post. It bears a very close resemblance to the book I am reading at present: Lynne McTaggart's "The Field". Imaginative stuff! Perhaps I will wait until I have finished the book before commenting.


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