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#22699 - 07/12/07 12:41 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
So now there is only One True Church (that's the Popes' one ie Roman Catholic)according to the Popes' message this morning ---

So for people who enjoy fighting and not cooperating we can all go back to burning catholics and/ or protestants depending on the flavour of your religion. The Orthodox churches are apparently wounded (!), but sort of OK-- but all those fundies, well you're all on the way to Hell! Perhaps now we can stop fighting crusades and go back to the usual enemies. Am I alone in thinking that this is irrelevant rubbish.? But then I thought the crusades were over in the thirteenth century and here we are still fighting one.

What is your take on this Tim? Only one true god? So is he/she the Popes' one?

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#22700 - 07/12/07 01:27 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Wolfman Offline
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Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
Anybody see that old animated film "South Park" several years ago? There was a scene in there that made as much sense as anything you'll see posted here.

After Armeggedon, upon reaching Hell, Satan advised that everyone present was there becasue they had followed the "Wrong Church". When asked "what WAS the RIGHT Church?", Satan responded, in the manner of a TV Game Show Host, "The correct answer is 'Mor-mons'. Yes, the answer we were looking for is 'Mor-mons'" Hilarious.

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#22702 - 07/12/07 03:09 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Terry: "Aren't you forgetting the insanity that allows extremists of one religion to believe their God gave them a piece of land and the previous inhabitants can just go somewhere else? Mind you the same thing happened previously in America, Australia and to some extent in New Zealand."

No, I wasn't forgetting, and in that case it's not just a few the extremists. In the UK I knew a medical consultant who, despite appearing perfectly rational in all other respects, was a bitterly anti-arab Zionist.

The insanity of religion has no bounds.

_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#22707 - 07/12/07 07:35 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: redewenur]
Tim Offline
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Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 192
Loc: California
"The insanity of religion has no bounds."
The insanity of everything has no bounds.

Regarding the Pope's statement: I wish he could take that back, for it takes other people's rights away. For example, he alluded that Protestantism wasn't routed in the true Rock of which Peter started, therefore invalid. I would disagree because that not only creates internal divisions, but also other denominations to go against that, for they think they are the Church. What my personal philosophy is, is that you should not judge others, but love them. Perhaps Mormonism fits one person, and Lutheranism another, and Islam still another. But they should keep that to themselves, and not try to the point of bombings to convert, for that goes against libertarianism. God Is. He is all, everything; now I am not a pantheist, dont get me wrong. But everyone has a different point of view of God. When one gets too zealous of something (and not just religion, but also science, or cars, to use a few examples) they take away other people's given rights. That should not be so.

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#22709 - 07/13/07 12:24 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tim]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Tim- I think you can take comfort from the fact that Jesus said something along the lines of "where 2 or 3 are gathered together in My name, I will be there among them". Maybe going back to the source is easier, and ignore the later frilly add-ons! (I wonder if the Pope will ban the non-Latin bibles next).

PS And Tim- not everything is insane. It all starts to make sense when your grandchildren are born!!!

Wolfman- Have you seen the Rowan Atkinson sktech where he is the Devil sorting the dead in Hell. They are grouped according to type- and one lot are atheists. "Bet you're all feeling silly now!" gloats Atkinson. Makes me laugh every time! (I think I may have mentioned this one before, so forgive me if I have).

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#22711 - 07/13/07 02:13 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Tim Offline
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Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 192
Loc: California
Let me tell you this; religion is one way for man to express himself. When it gets too far, and he demands others to convert to his, then it becomes out of hand. Last night I was watching Beauty and the Beast, and I realized something. Belle redeems the Beast by in effect redeeming herself. It is a tale of salvation. It is not a tale of Calvinists, nor Catholics, nor agnostics, nor Buddhist, but rather humanity itself. Religion if used incorrectly, is as bad as anything else, but it could also be good. Man is evil, but contains some good. There is something within him giving him at times some sense of nobility and honour, which might be masked otherwise.
"Maybe going back to the source is easier, and ignore the later frilly add-ons!"
Yes, exactly.

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#22715 - 07/13/07 08:48 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Tim wrote:

"religion is one way for man to express himself. When it gets too far, and he demands others to convert to his, then it becomes out of hand."

I doubt if anyone here would disagree with that statement. As TheFallibleFiend wrote earlier:

"Obviously they ARE the same God. They just believe different things about that god."

I've said for many years religion is like a pie. Each religion has part of the pie but they all believe they have the whole pie.

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#22722 - 07/13/07 04:38 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Tim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 192
Loc: California
"I've said for many years religion is like a pie. Each religion has part of the pie but they all believe they have the whole pie."

Yes, Ive heard a story about four blind men, who are told to touch an elephant. The first touches the tail, and thinks an elephant is like a snake. The second touches a leg, and thinks an elephant is like a tree trunk. The third touches a tusk, and thinks an elephant is like a horn. The fourth touches its ear, and thinks an elephant is like a giant butterfly.
Now, this story is with faults, but it demonstrates that people could misjudge something based on their limited view. We see but a pin-prick in this cosmic universe, and yet we think that we know all or close to everything.

Job said:
"He stretches out the north over empty space
And hangs the earth on nothing,
he wraps up the waters in His clouds,
And the cloud does not burst under them.
He obscures the face of the full moon
And spreads His cloud over it.
he has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters
At the boundary of light and darkness.
The pillars of heaven tremble
And are amazed at his rebuke
He quieted the sea with His power,
And by His understanding He shattered Rahab.
By His breath the heavens are cleared;
His hand has pierced the fleeing serpent.
Behold, these are the fringes of His ways;
And how faint a word we hear of HIm!
But His mighty thunder, who can understand?"
(Job 26:7-14)

Yet today religion is claiming they have all the answers, with five different churches on a single street all with various creeds. What happened to "how faint a word we hear of Him!" Now perhaps that selection is not "scientifically accurate" but it is poetry from primitives Isaraelites (one of the best poetry, taken for what it is, and not dogma).

Perhaps we were created by a God, perhaps we were not. Scientifically, we do not know, which is why there is still so much debate surfacing around the subject. It is my thinking that tells me I was, that I was created in the image of my Creator. Does everyone think this way? No. Should they think this way? In some cases, if that is what is noble for them to do, and if does not harm them. They should not be forced, though. Freedom and love require a choice. That each of us should make personally, whether it be a Muslim, or Atheist, or Weslyan. We all see a piece of the large pie. The fact that there is such pluarlism in our culture -the culture of humanity- shows our small scope of knowledge. If we knew everything we would be robots, and there would be no room for freedom, and we would in fact know nothing, therefore (a paradox). Yet we do not, creating opinion scoured off unproven "fact". Yet we are conscious of the world around us. Able to choose, which none can take away from us. It lies deep within our surface, not measurable nor empirical, that serves as a guiding force.
"I think, therefore I am."
We do not know, we think. We think we know. Yet if we would know, we would not know. A paradox, our race. It is what creates Love and Freedom. Two of our most noble traits, which tower above all the rest. Hope.

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#22727 - 07/13/07 06:59 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tim]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Some very good points, Tim. I like your discussion regarding claims to knowing absolute truth.

"It lies deep within our surface, not measurable nor empirical, that serves as a guiding force"

- But it's empirical enough to the one who experiences it, wouldn't you say?
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#22731 - 07/13/07 11:02 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Tim. I agree with much of what you say, but your comment, "I was created in the image of my Creator" raises a series of questions in my mind. Is your skin brown, black or white? Is your nose large or relatively small? Are you tall or short? Can you see the problems your statement raises? Can people who don't look like you accept their God looks like them? Reminds me of the story of the Klu Klux Clansman at a seance. His friend appears from the after-life and says, "I've got good news and bad. Good news is I've seen God. Bad news is she's black".

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#22733 - 07/14/07 03:48 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Tim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 192
Loc: California
"But it's empirical enough to the one who experiences it, wouldn't you say?"
Possibly, for some.
What I mean by in the Image of my Creator is that humans could have been designed with certain traits that our Creator would have bestowed on us, i.e. the capacity for truth and honor, and for less noble traits. It is not so much, "I'm white, so all who are not white are not like God." I am talking more than the mere physical realm.

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#22734 - 07/14/07 04:41 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tim]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Tim: "What I mean by in the Image of my Creator is..."

I understand that your personal, considered interpretation is not a fundamantalist/literalist one. Looking at it in Christian terms, I can imagine that if you strip away all the downside of human nature, what you might have left would be the wholesome, or "holy" part - the essence that is in the image of God. Is that, in your mind, the same as what you said?

Then, of course, there are the theological views regarding the downside - but that's another matter.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#22738 - 07/15/07 05:16 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
That downside is part of human nature, we would not be human without it, so our divinity which created us in his/her image should have had the opportunity to create us 'all good' but couldn't,----- because we reflect the nature of our god ???

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#22742 - 07/15/07 06:52 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Ellis

"That downside is part of human nature, we would not be human without it"

Some say that we'll never be fully human 'with it'.

"our divinity which created us in his/her image should have had the opportunity to create us 'all good' but couldn't"

Yes, a popular argument says "If God is perfect, omniscient, omnipresent etc., why, with the benefit of perfect foreknowledge, create a flawed species then punish the pathetic beings with unspeakable suffering for getting things wrong?"




_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#22746 - 07/15/07 09:07 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: redewenur]
Tim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 192
Loc: California
For Love, for Freedom of choice.

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#22747 - 07/16/07 12:32 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tim]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Ellis: "our divinity which created us in his/her image should have had the opportunity to create us 'all good' but couldn't"

redewenur: "why, with the benefit of perfect foreknowledge, create a flawed species then punish the pathetic beings with unspeakable suffering for getting things wrong?"

Tim: "For Love, for Freedom of choice."

This is, supposedly, a God of infinite power that, whilst it was able to create a species with a 'knowledge of good and evil' could NOT endow it with the capacity to always choose good.

OK, Tim if that's you're God. As Dauglas Adams' Vogon said, "Resistance is useless" grin

_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#22752 - 07/16/07 09:11 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
But Tim, you've introduced another philosophical problem. Your comment:

"humans could have been designed with certain traits that our Creator would have bestowed on us, i.e. the capacity for truth and honor, and for less noble traits".

Am I to take it you accept your God exhibits these "less noble traits"? Or are we not actually made in God's image?

Perhaps, as Redewenur wrote:

'OK, Tim if that's you're God. As Douglas Adams' Vogon said, "Resistance is useless"'.

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#22757 - 07/16/07 07:48 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Tim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 192
Loc: California
"Am I to take it you accept your God exhibits these "less noble traits"? Or are we not actually made in God's image?"

No, He could not because we are given the Freedom of choice, which can elevate or de-elevate (if thats a word) us, according to our actions. But that is my God. For me, saying that I am in the image of Him does not mean that I am Him. I am merely somewhat related. There are glimpses of humanity's greatness through noble and honorable actions, is there not? Self-sacrifice, caring for others? To me, those are the rare times when man looks behind the veil and sees his Creator. When he rises up above this cosmic void, and gives it meaning. But I do not expect you to have the same views of God as I do.
"Resistance is useless." Now perhaps I am misinterpreting that statement but in my eyes I am not condemning others for their view of God, or if they think mine does not make sense. My point is that I am not resisting other's opinions about myself, and that I am letting freedom of choice and pluarlism which most do not ahold to.


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#22758 - 07/16/07 10:03 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tim]
terrytnewzealand Offline
Megastar

Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Tim wrote:

"I am merely somewhat related".

More or less closely related than are chimpanzees, humans and gorillas? The other two species also engage in "Self-sacrifice, caring for others" on occassions.

The resistance is useless comment comes from "The Hitch-Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy". The Vogon utters the words as he is taking Arthur Dent and Ford Prefect to be thrown into deep space. I presume Redewenur was suggesting that nothing is likely to change your belief. I don't have a problem with that as you are prepared to accept freedom of choice and pluralism in others of us. It's when belief in the supernatural influences decisions which greatly affect others that I have a problem. But of course our beliefs always influence our actions.

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#22759 - 07/16/07 11:22 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tim]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Tim

"Resistance is useless" - as Terry said, you have your faith; it would be futile and presumptuous to argue that you should change it. This kind of topic tends to become a little 'heavy' at times, especially when it's related to the horrors of fundamentalism. Right now, that's not the issue, and we have good reason to lighten up a bit.

Firstly, you are clearly a well balanced person with respectable ethics; so, my position is that it's of no serious consequence how your beliefs differ from my own.

Secondly, being a member of SAGG, you probably have a keen interest in science - in the objective realities of the material world. That, I would think, would be sufficient to stand you in good stead in sifting the wheat from the chaff regarding theological world views.

From THE GREAT LEARNING [500BC], by Confucius, translated by James Legge [1893]

The ancients who wished to illustrate illustrious virtue throughout the kingdom, first ordered well their own states.
Wishing to order well their states, they first regulated their families.
Wishing to regulate their families, they first cultivated their persons.
Wishing to cultivate their persons, they first rectified their hearts.
Wishing to rectify their hearts, they first sought to be sincere in their thoughts.
Wishing to be sincere in their thoughts, they first extended to the utmost their knowledge.
Such extension of knowledge lay in the investigation of things.

_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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