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Rev-- Let's make this question more personal. What law of science has a baby born with an aggressive cancer broken? Or a positive lovely person,with a family, who develops Motor Neurone disease at 40? Or a gentle, brilliant elderly person who is gradually losing their mind to Senile Dementia?


Also I notice in your questions all the lovely positive flowery attributes (esp. no. 8!!!) are with the god believers and the atheists are hard and nasty! And yes I do believe this is 'IT'. No eternal life, heaven or other get-out clause. So I try to make my time meaningful, and I hope I may be remembered fondly by a few people. Death, as I see it, is as natural as life.

PS- Atheists/Humanists CAN do number 8 (as well as most of the others too!!!)

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Ellis comments: "PS- Atheists/Humanists CAN do number 8 (as well as most of the others too!!!)" Of course they can, if they choose to be moral, ethical, just, humane and loving.
=============================================
BTW, in my opinion, I do not insist that one must adhere to a formal religion, or creeds. We can each go our own way, as long as this does not mean that it is okay to be immoral, unethical and un-loving. The process, as Jesus taught, has to do with being human, and doing humane things, not with spouting set creeds. Loners, atheists and agnostic welcome. I am a unitheist because I admit that I need a little help, the fellowship of others and some invisible means of support.
IT IS ALL ABOUT DEEDS, NOT CREEDS
=================================
For me believing in GOD involves accepting that there is what I call the "invisible/spiritual/god-like" means of support. Surely those who reject this miss out on a great deal of help. I can't for the life of me figure out, why people would be so hard on themselves. I need all the help I can get. And I willingly accept it.

ABOUT THE MEANING OF THE VERB "TO BREAK"
Ellis. it is obvious that you put a different spin on the meaning the word "break" than I do. I think of it as "going against". I avoid going against the laws of science because I respect that they ARE constant, even if we go against them in our ignorance.

When you ask: "What law of science has a baby born with an aggressive cancer broken?" This is a rhetorical question.

It implies that you know the answer I should give. It is something like asking me: Who do YOU think you ARE? Or, when did you stop beating your wife? As you know, such questions are not even allowed in a court of law.


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Where did I write that atheists and agnostics are hard and nasty?
Point it out and I will ask that the moderator remove it and slap my wrists.


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"IT IS ALL ABOUT DEEDS, NOT CREEDS."
Nice observation. Yeah, where did Rev write or even imply that atheists/agnostics are less moral/hard and nasty?

We live in a world far surpassing any other historical culture in terms of technology, knowledge, and technology. We live in a post-modern world, as it is called. Dogmatic religion of the Medieval time period is outmoded. Romanticism has lost its spirit. Deism and the Enlightenment have been found to be good starting points, but far from the truth. The Ptolemic system, and the Caprinican system, are false. Early Darwinism had been based on the presumption that we were far less complicated than the 21st century molecular observations show.

What is my point? Well actually, I dont know, I guess I was just ranting.

But the new thing in our culture is relativism, which implies tolerance to others who don't beleive as we do. Now actually this would be a paradox, because if an African tribe has a mythology about some bird-creator, and a series of creations, we know it is false. But we learn something from them. Even though it is not 'right' for us, in our highly technical and PC world.

Okay, I still don't really have a point, but whatever, make this as you will. Im not here to force my opinions onto you, I just have some (developing) world-views.

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Tim: Read the first couple of chapters of the letter of James--the brother of Jesus. Certainly James must have had a pretty good idea of the basic message of his brother, Jesus.

James put it bluntly,"Faith without works is nothing". In other words, faith without action is hypocrisy.


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Tim about your comment and question:
Quote:
"IT IS ALL ABOUT DEEDS, NOT CREEDS." Nice observation. Yeah, where did Rev write or even imply that atheists/agnostics are less moral/hard and nasty?
Wouldn't it be nice if we had an answer to your question, and mine?

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Tim about your comment and question:
Quote:
"IT IS ALL ABOUT DEEDS, NOT CREEDS." Nice observation. Yeah, where did Rev write or even imply that atheists/agnostics are less moral/hard and nasty?
Wouldn't it be nice if we had an answer to your question, and mine?


Perhaps it was an implication of something you said in the past. Earlier you were writing about your particular religion and the awareness of your incarnation of god and then you said:
"As I understand things, it is simply up to me (including us) to come to the consciousness that everything already IS. This means that, if we choose to be moral, ethical and loving persons, we can thus become qualified to become partners in the creative process."

The juxtaposition of these two sentences ties 'morality' to 'consciousness' (of god). The implication is that those who do not attained the level of your glorious consciousness might be unethical and unloving, or at least less ethical and loving.





Last edited by TheFallibleFiend; 11/19/07 06:31 PM.
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Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend

.... Perhaps it was an implication of something you said in the past. Earlier you were writing about your particular religion and the awareness of your incarnation of god and then you said:

"As I understand things, it is simply up to me (including us) to come to the consciousness that everything already IS. This means that, if we choose to be moral, ethical and loving persons, we can thus become qualified to become partners in the creative process."

The juxtaposition of these two sentences ties 'morality' to 'consciousness' (of god). The implication is that those who do not attain the level of your glorious consciousness might be unethical and unloving, or at least less ethical and loving.
Thanks TFF, for your response. I presume you are a moral, ethical and loving person.

This prompts me to ask: Regardless of your theological beliefs, do you believe that you have a Spirit which will survive the death of your body? If not, wouldn't be nice if you did get this opportunity?

I happen to believe that if there IS life after death, and that no one, or thing, will be excluded. In my opinion it will simply be a continuation of the kind of life we have started here. This is why I do my best--with all the help I can get from anyone, including atheists, visible and invisible--to lay the best possible foundation I can.

IMO, Atheists who build firm moral, ethical and loving foundations now will, IMO, get the same opportunity all will.

My question to atheists is: Do you, as atheists, find it easy to build such foundations all by yourselves as atheists?

What about immoral, unethical and unloving people, including hypocritical religionists?

IMO, I believe they will get will get the same opportunity to build on the hellish foundation they laid here.

REINCARNATION, ANYONE?
However, I do believe that there is such a thing as a second, and third, and even more chances. Yes, I believe that reincarnation is possible. But this is another story.

Last edited by Revlgking; 11/19/07 08:37 PM.
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Rev writes;
IMO, Atheists who build firm moral, ethical and loving foundations now will, IMO, get the same opportunity all will.

I reply;

?????????????????????????????????

You just do not understand what I am trying to explain to you. I am a normal (ish!), happy person. I try hard to be "nice". I obey laws. I adore my family (especially my lovely grandchildren) and I have nice friends. I am possibly overkind to animals and I enjoy being alive. But one day I am going to die. I do not want or need the get-out clause of eternal life, I do not believe it and I don't need the opportunity to enjoy it, so this option is totally meaningless to me. There are many like me. We don't build what you call foundations in order to access eternal life, we build them because we are human, and it's what we humans do. And no, it is not difficult to do. Why would you think it was?

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Ellis: Good for you. Carry on, and best wishes.


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Originally Posted By: Tim
"IT IS ALL ABOUT DEEDS, NOT CREEDS."
... I guess I was just ranting.
...Okay, I still don't really have a point, but whatever, make this as you will. Im not here to force my opinions onto you, I just have some (developing) world-views.
Tim, have I missed your latest rant? How are your "world-views" developing?
Did you check out The Letter oF James? If so, did you note what he said about "faith without works" of action?

BTW (by the way), did you notice how many clicks there have been on this thread. Nearly 75,000. WOW! Obviously there is a lot of interest out there about what people write about matters of belief. Now, lurkers, get rid of being shy and get involved, eh?

Last edited by Revlgking; 11/28/07 10:47 PM.
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Tim: In case you missed it:

The reality of GØD--as I understand the concept--for me is as follows:

LET THERE BE LIGHT
In Genesis 1:3 we read: "Let there be light."
In my humble opinion, here we are talking about light, physically, mentally and spiritually. Metaphorically speaking, light, in all its form, helps bring order out of chaos.

GØD is the light (of many colours).
I experience light as a fact.
GØD is sound (many sounds). I feel and enjoy the positive effects of all that beautiful sounds, especially music.
GØD is all philosophy--the love of wisdom and understanding.

IMO, this means that GØD is all science (knowledge, wisdom and truth).
As such. I experience, and enjoy, all of them.
Philosophy and science lead to GØD, as the art of living.
Thus I enjoy all the creative arts.

Getting practical:
GØD is Spirit (breath), so I breathe. Can an atheist live without taking breath?
GØD is the one, powerful and good idea, in which I live, move and have my being.
Thus I think positive and powerful thoughts.
GØD is Love, so I love.

I refuse to embrace the faith of atheism, until it comes up with better evidence, and value, than it now has.

BTW, if the battle of atheism is against superstition--false religious faith--I agree to join such a battle.
_________________________
GØD=Love in persons, the Cosmos, in all things-physical/mental/spiritual-past/present/future.
===================================================
The above is the basic philosophy of:
The Family Life Foundation--A volunteer-operated and non-sectarian registered charity, #888 762 663 RR0001. Founded in 1973, by the Rev. Lindsay G. King and friends, it is about promoting holistic (physical, mental and spiritual) health with the help of science, faith and the arts integrated by the human imagination. http://www.flfcanada.com


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Atheism is not a faith.

I too believe light exists.

I do not believe light is god.

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I agree with Ellis.

Atheism is not a faith.

Atheism does not embody values.

Atheism does not reject (most) values.

Religion is not science.

Rhetoric is not critical analysis.

I'm glad that you believe in doing good things. I'm gladder still that you may actually be doing the good things in which you believe. I'm still waiting to hear you say anything that is even remotely related to science.

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TFF, you comment, "I'm still waiting to hear you say anything that is even remotely related to science."

Thanks for your interest and patient attentiveness. It keeps lurkers clicking in.

The following is not dogma, it simply expresses my personal belief, about which I reserve the right to be wrong. Here goes: All philosophies, all sciences, all arts--in all their hard and soft forms--are (that is, have their being), IMO, within GØD.

I will let atheists speak for themselves, but, as a unitheist, I affirm my belief that GØD is about hard science with each physical breath of hard-scientific air (the source of phyical life) I take.

This is NOT QUITE SCIENCE, isn't it?
====================================
BTW, it is my understanding that this part of the forum is about
"not quite science". This is why I include reference to philosophy and art. I think of philosophy as the mother of the sciences and grandmother of the arts, including the technologies.

Interestingly, our word 'technology' comes from the Greek, technos, meaning carpenter. One of the titles of Jesus is, "the carpenter". I would call this a very "hard" science-based art, wouldn't you?


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BTW, I do not say that GØD is light. But I could be persuaded that light emanates--note the term--from, and is evidence of, GØD, the primary source of all that IS, as I indicate in my signature.

BTW, about your interesting comment: "Rhetoric is not critical analysis." I agree.

If I have used it, I apologise. And as I would like to avoid doing so in the future, could you give me an example of where I have done so?

Last edited by Revlgking; 11/30/07 10:53 PM.

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This exciting new information:
Check out BLACK MASS--Apocalyptic Religion and the Death of Utopia, the latest book by John Gray
=======================================================
About the British academic, philosopher, professor, writer, social critic, and a broad-brush skeptic, John Gray. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_N._Gray

He, a self-described skeptic, calls this age as, "an age of the crusading atheists..."

He refers to Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennett, and others like them, "as evangelists for atheism...secular believers with faiith in their own set of creeds and myths...They are militant, vehement, dogmatic...which point to the religious origin of their faith." His words, not mine.

RELIGION
========
Keep in mind, the root meaning of religion comes from the word 'ligament'. Ligaments hold the physical body together. Philosophically speaking, religion is that which can hold people together as a community, or group.

Broadly speaking, any social institution that includes a set of commonly held beliefs can be called a religion, even when, like superstition, such beliefs are contra to common sense and reason.

BTW, there is, also, such a thing as a non-theistic religion. For example, Buddhism is a non-theistic religion.

Theologically speaking, religion, as it is commonly understood, is based on a fixed set of theological beliefs--in a god, or gods--as set forth, by a founder, and/or in a book or in a collections of sayings, and passed on to disciples and followers. Christians and Jews have what we call the Bible. Muslims have the Koran. The practice of such religions usually involves prayer, ritual, ethics and morality--laws of personal behaviour.

Religion can encompass ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experiences. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared convictions.

THE DEMOCRATIC FREEDOM OF, AND FREEDOM FROM, RELIGION
=======================================================
Personally speaking, as one who believes in democracy, I even refuse to impose any fixed-position kind of religion on myself. I want to be free to thnk, at all times. Therefore, I feel that no society should ever have the right to impose religion on any other individual.

FREEDOM, FREEDOM, FREEDOM
=========================
You and I must have the freedom of religion and freedom from religion, if we so choose. I will write more on this. Meanwhile, your input will be welcome.


Last edited by Revlgking; 12/01/07 11:31 PM.

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"You and I must have the freedom of religion and freedom from religion, if we so choose. I will write more on this. Meanwhile, your input will be welcome."

Yep, just like anything else. Good quote.

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Lots of people claim to be one sort of thing when they are, in fact, another. I do not know about John Gray, but the fact that he calls himself a skeptic might mean that he is an actual skeptic or it might mean that he wants the bona fides of one who is an objective observer.

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FF- Do you think a sceptic is objective? I would have thought that a sceptic would approach a situation by being sceptical of its desired outcome and thus in fact making a decision based on his/her own opinion, therefore he/she is subjective. Do you agree?


PSRev- If a religion is defined by connection and social cohesion then atheism, which has none of the above, is definitely NOT a religion.

An interesting item of little importance.
To those who feel only christians have enough social conscience to run for office and govern the country, creating and upholding the law, I will point out that of the new Australian Cabinet sworn in last week 19 took an oath of office swearing by God whilst holding a bible ( the new PM was one)- and 22 affirmed their oath on their own cognisance, without any help from the supernatural. There are places where this behaviour could not happen without lots of fuss I am beginning to think. There has been absolutely no reaction for or against.

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