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#25676 - 04/24/08 05:53 AM Biofuels Starve the Poor
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK

BioFuel production is based upon the cultivation of oil rich plants
Goverments are paying farmers to cultivate these crops, which after processing, approx 6% are added to gasolene and diesel products.
The world price of a barrel of oil is about $115 and rising.

The net importers of petroleum products are saving thousands of
Dollars per month, at the expense of the 3rd world poor, who are finding the price of their food has risen so high, that over 80% of their income is now going on food just to keep themselves alive.
Starving and undernourishment has become so bad in parts of Africa, that children have become so undernourished and just a step away from starvation that they cannot attend school.

Before Bio-crops took over, people used to eat two bowls of grain per day, they are now only eating one.
Not only that but food prices are rising world wide, the hoarding of rice and other grains by unscupulous dealers are affecting everyone.
Noticed the price of bread and pasta lately?

Bio-fuel crops are a crime against humanity, in my opinion.
They also indirectly pollute the air with the extra vehicles they fuel.
Trying to keep the price of fuels down at the expense of the 3rd world is evil.
The U.N cant do any more than issue a token amount of free grain to the starving as it gets reported in the press. Publicity or guilt?
Selling ones body for a bowl of grain, and a dose of Aids, is the biggest crime of all.
Money is no good to a starving person if there is no affordable food to buy.
This problem I'm writing about is not going to go away, until Bio-planting is banned, just you wait and see.
_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#25683 - 04/24/08 09:04 PM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Mike Kremer]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I just heard on the news that cosco/china is limiting the amount of rice that you can buy.

this is an important point to ponder.

I have expected this as soon as the war started and have been wondering when the news would start to carry the news on food shortages.

we are not there for any other purpose than to guarantee the flow of oil , and we fall in line with the other major powers that also depend on the oil from the region.

I am afraid that if this oil price increasing continues there will be a point reached that will demand that the major powers just move in and take what they need to survive as nations.

the oil price increase is what caused the food price increases

the really spooky part here is that we the U.S. would not be capable anymore , due to our already stretched to the limit war on terror. if that is what you choose to believe that it is.

and the largest nation that really is dependent on the oil to continue to support its massive economic growth is china.

and who could stop them if they decided to go after it?

and one more thing to think about...

we buy most of chinas products ... if we loose our ability to buy there products because we are having to spend it all on gas and food , then would that be a initiative for china to move in that direction?

BOO !!


Edited by paul (04/24/08 09:10 PM)
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#25684 - 04/24/08 09:22 PM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Mike Kremer]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello Kremer,

It is interesting you brought this up. In the area I live in, about 70 miles from where I live an etheyl alcohol plant was to be built. The public voted the plant down, in other words it is not going to locate there now. The argument is a you mentioned the price of corn going up and raising the price of groceries. We had a Korean company that wanted to locate in our industrial park for bio-diesel which was made from soybeans, and it was my understanding a special type of soybean was only good for bio fuels. I live in an agricultural area and corn per bushel has really gone up, I believe it was running about $2.75 per bushel here for eons, not much change since the depression. Now, I know farmers that have sold corn last fall for well over $4.00 per bushel. And may I add the cost of seed and fertilizer have gone up also.

I am in the middle of the road on this, I can see your point which is the same argument here in the US. I was in favor of the bio-diesel and alcohol for economic reasons, we need the jobs, the farmers need the increased income and hopefully it would be a defining factor in the price of fuel and save some resources. It is a tough one to call. I really don't know enough about some of the 3rd world countries to sound off. But,
I would like to inject into this that the UN should put some of these 3rd world dictators and war lords on notice. I don't think the US should do it, I don't think England or Australia should do it or any of the Western countries. We all pay money to the UN and I feel that should be their job, to stabelize these countries to the extent they can. It is a complicated problem and I don't mean to try and simplify it, but the best place to start is the beginning. I am with you though, my heart goes out to these people.

take care
odin1

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#25689 - 04/25/08 01:15 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Anonymous]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Was it not the idea that the bio-fuels would be less polluting? If this is not so maybe the whole scare will in fact resolve itself as anti-pollution legislation will perhaps stop this latest venture. Also I distinctly remember that the idea was also to use waste, for example from sugar canes after the juice was extracted was one mentioned in Oz. If bio-fuel could be extracted from bio-waste this would be better, even though the polluting thing would still be a problem I suppose.

It seems totally unethical in a hungry world to produce food to fuel a car!

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#25690 - 04/25/08 01:47 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Ellis]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Yes, I believe so Ellis. Anyway that was my understanding. There are also some vehicles that the manufacturers here in the US have warned the public against using. Ford and Lincoln have warned against using the ethyl fuel mixture with gasoline for two reasons:
1) fuel mileage
2) engine damage
now I am repeating this from a good friend that was told this at a Lincoln dealership. If it was a lie, he told it.

Best Regards,
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#25701 - 04/25/08 08:39 PM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: odin1]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
I say let's convert our corn, sugar beets, and sweetgrass into fuel, and that the United States Government should open more prime land for the cultivation of this produce so it won't effect the world's food supply. I would like to point out that I don't think the corn which would be used for fuel would be the same corn that is served to humans. Here in Vermont most of the Farmers grow a plant called cow corn which looks just like like regular corn except it is less tastey and has a strange texture. This corn when it matures is chopped up and then stuffed into silos so the cows can eat the entire plant. I htink the cow corn was specifically engineered to grow in areas like Vermont which have a shorter growing season then other areas and it is also designed to be more nutitionally complete for the cows.

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#25704 - 04/25/08 09:49 PM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Rallem]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello Rallem,

Like I said in an earlier post, we had a Korean Company that wanted to buy some land and a shell bldg. in the industrial park
to produce bio-diesel fuel. The soybeans were not edible, but produced a lot of oil. We produce a lot of soybeans here but they are not that kind. So, you're probably right, the corn used to make ethyl could be a type not eaten and not really effect the price of edible corn or beans. Then, you have the argument that the available farmland would be used to grow bio-fuel instead of food. But, I think we need to get government and business together to iron out these wrinkles and come up with something that is good for everyone, and that is easier said than done.

best regards,
odin1

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#25708 - 04/26/08 01:06 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Anonymous]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Solar energy anyone?

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#25710 - 04/26/08 02:01 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Ellis]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Sounds like a bargain to me !

odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#25711 - 04/26/08 02:26 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Ellis]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
Quote:
Solar energy anyone?


I am installing my first solar heated / water heater this summer.
and am building my first solar collector to connect to my water heater.

I expect that the electricity that was used to heat my water with will only be needed on cloudy days.

also I intend to install a circulation pump to circulate hot water from the water heater to heat my house with this next winter.

also I will be installing a ground water cooling system this summer.

hopefully these improvements will reduce my energy footprint and save a few hundred dollars to boot.

I am not removing any of the already installed heating or cooling equipment , only adding heat exchangers , a few collectors and a better water heater that has three inch insulation vs the normal 1/2 inch insulation.

hopefully everything goes well and I wont end up soaking the attic with water from a missjudgement.

I believe that this is a start , and a good one , in the war on warming.

well not really a start , I started when I changed ALL the light bulbs in the house to the CFL bulbs , and switch them off when not in use...






Edited by paul (04/26/08 02:29 AM)
_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#25712 - 04/26/08 02:45 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: paul]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Sounds like you've decladed war on high energy cost.
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#25754 - 04/27/08 01:41 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: paul]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
I am a proponent of Solar power, but I think the best bet is a combination of solar, wind, geothermal, hydro, and biofuels so that no one source of power can ever hold us for hostage again.

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#25762 - 04/27/08 03:56 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Rallem]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
I agree, and I wish that politics, and greed could be taken out of the equation of energy. I wish for one time that someone in government would set down with the experts in energy, economics and consider the good of the people rather than the status quo.
You know we could come up with an energy plan I really believe that would set us free from opec and the money mizers with the oil companies. I believe it could be done without disrupting the worlds economy, and would be friendly to the 3rd world nations. We stay on a roller coaster ride with oil. But you know government is government, beuocrats are beuocrats what else can I say. He that has the gold - makes the rules.

extremely depressed,
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#25765 - 04/27/08 04:38 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: odin1]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Quote:
He that has the gold - makes the rules.


We the People have the gold.

together or one at a time , it will be us that will make the necessary changes to the energy problem.

buy a CFL bulb each month if thats what it takes.

each time you do anything to help it helps.

I used to have to change a light bulb every month at least.
since I have started using the CFL bulbs several months ago I havent had to change any.

and according to the box it will be 5 years until I will need to change a bulb.

hopefully by then I can change to the LED light bulbs that are being experimented with that only use a portion of the electricity that a CFL bulb does.

and they are supposed to last even longer.





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#25766 - 04/27/08 04:43 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Anonymous]
paul Offline
Megastar

Registered: 03/21/06
Posts: 4136
I thought something was wrong when I had to type in the verification code to the post above. LOL

its getting late.
I forgot I was logged out.

_________________________
3/4 inch of dust build up on the moon in 4.527 billion years,LOL and QM is fantasy science.

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#25767 - 04/27/08 04:53 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: paul]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
I'll take your advice Paul.
Thanks,
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#25802 - 04/28/08 09:25 PM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: odin1]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
Hi Odin,
I think the Government is working on this important issue, and while I will agree with you that they're doing this a little late and a little too lack luster in effort, but I will disagree with you about the Government needing to get out of the picture, because in my opinion one of the most important jobs of any Government is the management of its natural resources.

I know that it may seem like the Government is not doing a very good job with the situation we're in, but I would like to point out that we may not have the scope of the "Big Picture," and there may be tactical reasons for our Government and just about every other Western Government for allowing its citizens to become addicted to Middle Eastern Oil. I think that reason is to use up all of their oil and pay those people what prices they ask for within reason so if a war does occur it will be us with most of the remaining oil reserves to draw upon.

Here in the United States we still have lots of oil which we have not yet drilled for, both on land and off shore and the reasons for our not drilling in these regions is because of the price of drilling in those regions being too high for a profit, and I think for tactical purposes as well because with recent technical breakthroughs the predicted cost of drilling in these areas should drop drastically. That takes care of the economic and tactical reasons for our current energy situation in my opinion but it does not address the environmental impact our current energy policies have, and for that I havenít an answer, but I think the Government is aware of a need for change and is doing something about it. I just hope they are quick to coming to a solution, but I am doubtful.

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#25808 - 04/29/08 01:06 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Rallem]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello Rallem,

I agree with you

"I wish for one time that someone in government would set down with the experts in energy, economics and consider the good of the people rather than the status quo."

It is going to have to be done through legislation. Government should sit down the experts and consider all the factors-economics , natural resources and environment. One big reason the government should be involved in national security. We need to stay out of conficts and wars concerning energy. We need to have the energy to let a flourishing ecomonmy flourish.

Something that really bothers me about energy is this. A very smart man told me one time and I will never forget it, he said
"we fuss and fight over energy, when the whole universe is nothing but energy". That makes a lot of sense. Right now there is too much money, and too many groups fighting amongst themselves to sit down and do what is right for everyone.
I'm like you, I will have to see it to believe it.

Best Regards,
odin1

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#25810 - 04/29/08 01:22 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Anonymous]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
Hello Rallem,

I agree with you

"I wish for one time that someone in government would set down with the experts in energy, economics and consider the good of the people rather than the status quo."

It is going to have to be done through legislation. Government should sit down the experts and consider all the factors-economics , natural resources and environment. One big reason the government should be involved in national security. We need to stay out of conficts and wars concerning energy. We need to have the energy to let a flourishing ecomonmy flourish.

Something that really bothers me about energy is this. A very smart man told me one time and I will never forget it, he said
"we fuss and fight over energy, when the whole universe is nothing but energy". That makes a lot of sense. Right now there is too much money, and too many groups fighting amongst themselves to sit down and do what is right for everyone.
I'm like you, I will have to see it to believe it.

Best Regards,
odin1


I know htis is going to sound cold and callous, but I disagree with you about us having to stay out of wars, because I honestly feel as though that may be the best of the four possible ways of over population protection and it will lead us to a fifth way which is space exploration.

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#25815 - 04/29/08 01:55 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Rallem]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Well," there will be wars and rumours of war", - that has been true up to now, and it doesn't look like it is going to change any time soon. This is all the more reason to build the "gravity amplifiers" as was discussed in "exotic propulsion systems" and explore the galaxy instead of killing one another. There is no telling who has been killed in wars that could have found a cure for cancer, or designed that exotic propulsion system to take us to the stars. Maybe even someone with a viable plan to change Venus and Mars and make them habitable.

Best Regards,
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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