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#25821 - 04/29/08 05:43 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: odin1]
Anonymous
Unregistered


[/b]There ought to be come way the majority that wants fuel, and sees that we can't convert enough corn, soybean or saw grass into biofuel to be able to override the few stubborn eco-geeks that won't let us get it out of the arctic and the continental shelf and solve this mess. We need some new refineries, and some atomic energy plants, and some low emission coal plants that they won't even allow to be demonstrated. I say, shove them aside, and just do it. They don't have to use it, if yjey don't want to, but I bet they will.

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#25822 - 04/29/08 07:03 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Anonymous]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
[/b]There ought to be come way the majority that wants fuel,............> We need some new refineries, and some atomic energy plants, and some low emission coal plants I say, shove them aside, and just do it. They don't have to use it, but I bet they will.


Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer


Even more importantly, the poor need cheap food.
There have been food riots due to food shortages. Hunger is producing food riots in many parts of the World right now. Bangladesh, Agentina India Kenya, Egypt, Ivory Coast, and other african countrys.

As far as I can see and read, its the increase in the price of oil that is getting all the blame? How come?
You can't blame higher transportation costs, can you? That would be ludicrous. Since at worst it would put just a few $'s more on a truck load. A few pence per bushel?

You can't blame the richer countrys for eating more food, can you? Haha.
Bad arguement, the rich dont eat more bread and rice, but go for the more exotic foods to eat.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gjwsTPw8Hf7Ucvwr7YJfhmzcjaCg

At least she not afraid to speak her mind, bucking all the opposition...and here again:-

"GENEVA, Switzerland, April 28, 2008 (ENS) - The United States and the European Union have taken a "criminal path" by contributing to an explosive rise in global food prices through using food crops to produce biofuels, the United
Nations special rapporteur on the right to food said today."

Of course grain hoarding exacebates the problem, but you cant blame worried people for that.

In fact its very difficult to find any one putting even at least part of the blame on bio-fuels, which are produced largely from non edible plants, like Elephant grasses, Soya, sugar cane, and palm oil are all being grown to produce Ethanol.
Their growth is increasing. Why?
Well lets face it the farmer gets well paid for growing it, cutting it, and dragging it over to the site for the Ethanol Co to collect it.

The farmer does not have thresh, sort, clean, and inspect his crop any more.!!!!
Just grow it dump it and get paid, ....easy peasy, to my mind.

Absolute ideal and easier conditions for the farmer and well as those Goverments who blame global warming, and drought, and high oil prices
Well just wait, there has to be some changes made. I think bio-fuel crops will have to be regulated very soon.

Starving people will at least force the hand of a Goverment in saying what food crops should be grown.
They can do that, but the starving people have no say in increasing the output of crude oil, ....only cars seem to have that power.



_________________________
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#25829 - 04/29/08 09:14 PM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: odin1]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
I was watching a television show on the History Channel about 12/21/12 and the end of the world and according to the mayan people they said the world world will end in flood where half the people will starve and the other half will will have plenty. Maybe the United States will decide to stop exporting food to the rest of the world and start making its own biofuel so I can once again afford to drive my big diesel hungry truck. smile

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#25990 - 05/08/08 09:42 PM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: paul]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
It has been reported that the actual making of ethanol creates more carbon dioxide than the production of gasoline from petroleum which could be a real hit to the environmentally friendly aspect of running on gasohol, except here in the United States of America refineries are now producing gasoline with no carbon dioxide being released into the air because they now trap all of the CO2 and pump it underground after they compress it into a liquid so it would get out more petroleum oil from the porous grounds of Canada. I see no reason why this process could not also be used for the distilleries which will make our ethanol. And perhaps this increase of liquid CO2 to pump into the ground of Canada and possibly off the coast of the Atlantic Ocean which could lower the cost of our petroleum based fuels. I would like to mention that I find it odd that the production of ethanol is dirtier than the production of gasoline when the very reason today’s gasoline is cleaner than the fuel of the 1980s is that we are now adding a 10% ethanol mixture to the gasoline.

It has been brought up that the United States of America converting its corn crops into fuel rather than food will starve the rest of the world, but I would like to point out that the Corn product used for making the ethanol will probably be a “cow corn,” which is edible but not very tasty, and is specifically designed to grow very quickly in the northern climates like Vermont which has a shorter growing period and the plant is designed to be more nutritious for the cows who eat the entire plant and not just the ears. How will this prevent the world from starving, some might ask, and I think the answer is that this type of corn will probably be grown in northern farms where farmers already grew the plant to feed to their cows in the winter time and who now no longer have any cows, and it will probably be grown in areas where sweet grass is already growing so no or very little land which is now being used for “food corn” will be lost to the production of fuel.

Lately it has been told to me by a local farmer that the price for a bushel of corn has rose from $2 to $4 so for this reason many farmers in this area are now growing corn to catch some of this money, so I will guess that the price of food corn will rise the same price. I think some people will have a conniption over this rise in food costs for the poor of the world, but the way I see it is they have no problem charging us $100. + for a barrel of oil so why should I care if we charge them the same for a bushel of corn?


Edited by Rallem (05/08/08 09:43 PM)

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#25996 - 05/09/08 07:32 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Mike Kremer]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
You can't blame the richer countrys for eating more food, can you? Haha.
Bad arguement, the rich don't eat more bread and rice, but go for the more exotic foods to eat.
Mike, many of these "exotic" foods require a four to seven-fold increase in the grain/feed needed to raise the increasingly popular meats.

A discussion about the wisdom of Biofuels has arisen on the climate change thread, "Zealotry...."
I'll just re-post some of the information from...
http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=25763#Post25763
(beginning of biofuel discussion)
...
Quote:
http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=25975#Post25975
Actually, 70-90% of the "food crisis" is due to factors other than biofuels.
Increased variation of weather leading to declining harvests, esp. Asia & Australia (2007).
Increased demand (population).
Increased demand for higher quality food (higher up the food chain -requiring more (4x - 7x) feedstock/grains).
Increased costs of transportation.
Increased costs of fuel and fertilizer.
Increased hoarding (market speculation, commoditization of foods as gold/oil/etc.).

..source: http://www.c-span.org/videoarchives.asp?CatCodePairs=,
Originally Posted By: House Republican Policy Committee Roundtable on Biofuels & Food Supply

The House Republican Policy Committee hosts a roundtable discussion on biofuels and the world's food supply. While some researchers believe biofuels account for more than a quarter of rising food prices, others look to growing demand in China and India.
5/5/2008: WASHINGTON, DC:

Quote:
The Millennium Development Goals (MDGs):
"We will have time to reach the Millennium Development Goals – worldwide and in most, or even all, individual countries – but only if we break with business as usual."
~United Nations Secretary-General
=
1. Eradicate extreme poverty and hunger
2. Achieve universal primary education
3. Promote gender equality and empower women
4. Reduce child mortality
5. Improve maternal health
6. Combat HIV/AIDS, malaria, and other diseases
7. Ensure environmental sustainability
8. Develop a global partnership for development
Note especially, MDG numbers 1 & 7.
Solutions for either of these (any of these) should not conflict with the others.
Does this sound reasonable?



Edited by samwik (05/09/08 07:42 AM)
Edit Reason: add correct link
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#25997 - 05/09/08 08:54 AM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Rallem]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
I haven't looked closely at this topic, so prepare for nonsense. Anyway:

Rallem: "I find it odd that the production of ethanol is dirtier than the production of gasoline when the very reason today’s gasoline is cleaner than the fuel of the 1980s is that we are now adding a 10% ethanol mixture to the gasoline."

- Yes, it does seem odd, but maybe 10% results in a particularly clean combination which, on balance, reduces the gross CO2 - but maybe not, as we don't have the relevant data here (yet).

Rallem: "I think the answer is that this type of corn will probably be grown in northern farms where farmers already grew the plant to feed to their cows in the winter time and who now no longer have any cows"

- Whatever they've been growing, they've surely been contributing to the food supply, either directly or indirectly, right? Even "cow corn" is part of our food chain.

Rallem: "but the way I see it is they have no problem charging us $100. + for a barrel of oil so why should I care if we charge them the same for a bushel of corn?"

- True, wealthy oil exporters and developed nations won't starve whatever the cost, but what of the not so rich? Recently, there's been turmoil in the rice market due to policy changes by major rice exporters. This has hit poorer rice importing countries most severely.

Climate changes will probably require some shifts in crop production, and population growth will call for the most efficient use of land for food supply, to meet the needs not only of the rich export market, but also the poor. I imagine that failure to meet demand could result in, let's say, a lack of harmony - or to put it plainly, an increase in war and terrorism. So, is using perfectly good arable land for biofuels a sensible idea?

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#26004 - 05/09/08 07:26 PM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: redewenur]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
redewenur wrote:
Quote:
Rallem: "I think the answer is that this type of corn will probably be grown in northern farms where farmers already grew the plant to feed to their cows in the winter time and who now no longer have any cows"

- Whatever they've been growing, they've surely been contributing to the food supply, either directly or indirectly, right? Even "cow corn" is part of our food chain.


Believe it or not, but not too long ago Vermont had more head of cattle than it did people, and now that is not true any more. Many of the farms which grew cows either for dairy or for meat have gotten out of the business because they have aged and their children didn't want to take over the business, or it just wasn't profitable anymore. When those farmers stopped raising cows they also stopped growing the "Cow Corn," because it was not necessary, but now even though they don’t have any more cows to feed, many farmers are going back to growing “cow corn” so they can get ethanol money for it. Well, the farmers who didn’t sub-divide their land to contractors are doing this.

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#26016 - 05/10/08 03:00 PM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Rallem]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Thanks for the info, Rallem. So they'll probably stick with that until they switch to switchgrass!

http://bioenergy.ornl.gov/papers/misc/switgrs.html

Looking down the road, McLaughlin believes switchgrass offers important advantages as an energy crop. "Producing ethanol from corn requires almost as much energy to produce as it yields," he explains, "while ethanol from switchgrass can produce about five times more energy than you put in. When you factor in the energy required to make tractors, transport farm equipment, plant and harvest, and so on, the net energy output of switchgrass is about 20 times better than corn's." Switchgrass also does a far better job of protecting soil, virtually eliminating erosion. And it removes considerably more CO2 from the air, packing it away in soils and roots.

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#26061 - 05/14/08 08:06 PM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: redewenur]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
I read a report comparing corn to the grass and sugar beets as far as making ethanol, and I believe each crop had its advantages, but I thought corn won out by the slimmest of margins.

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#26062 - 05/14/08 08:30 PM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Rallem]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
Rallem, have you got a link to that article?
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#26065 - 05/14/08 09:14 PM Re: Biofuels Starve the Poor [Re: Amaranth Rose II]
Rallem Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 09/04/06
Posts: 194
Loc: South Royalton, Vermont
No, it was not read online and I cannot remember where I got it from. I think a friend told me about the article and showed it to me and I am seeing him tomorrow so I will try to ask if he remembers the article.

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