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#25559 - 04/21/08 03:05 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Revlgking]
big fat pig Offline
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Registered: 01/15/08
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What is it that you feel that I claim?

you DID claim that there's life/consciousness after death. while there is no good evidence to support this
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#25561 - 04/21/08 02:59 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: big fat pig]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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One doesn't need to disprove that humans have immortal souls in order to reject them as scientific concepts. OTOH, not everything has to be scientific.

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#25562 - 04/21/08 03:52 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: big fat pig]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: big fat pig
... you DID claim that there's life/consciousness after death. while there is no good evidence to support this
Look again, BFP: Find one sentence where I wrote: I KNOW and have evidence that there is life after death. I have never talked to, or seen, a spirit, or even a zombi. Mind you, I have seen some so-called humans who appear to be trapped in zombi-like and harmful trances.

As a young minister--one with some training in philosophy and psychology--out of curiosity, I explored the claims of spiritualism, which is similar to voodooism. I was then living in the very interesting and multi-cultural city of Montreal.

I spent many hours reading about Spiritualism. I attended quite a number of Sunday-evening services at a Spiritualist church. The result. Despite the claims, I found no evidence that the dead can speak to the living. I found that some of the "leaders" of spiritualism were out and out scam artists. Actually, at some personal risk, I exposed more than one of them, and I even discussed what I found in the media.

I found that many of the ordinary believers in "Spiritualism" were unsophisticated people easily capable of being deluded. When I became familiar with the story of animal magnetism (Dr. Franz A. Mesmer), mesmerism, hypnotism (The work of Dr. James Braid), the trance phenomenon (Dr. Milton Erickson) and the like, I began to get a handle on what was going on.

Through the use of pneumatherapy--talk therapy, without the hocus pocus, which I developed--I was actually able to help some people free themselves from their delusions.

Needless to say, those who profited from keeping gullible people under their "spell", and under their power and control, were not pleased with my work and became bitter enemies.

I was even attacked by traditional religionists who, without actually exploring what I was doing to expose frauds, accused me of being part of what they labelled "the occult".

Keep in mind, I am well aware that any religion--even of the traditional kind--can be a form of superstition, which can even cause much harm to mentally unbalanced people.Have I clarified this for you? The late Dr. Scott Peck--the psychiatrist who wrote THE ROAD LESS TRAVELLED--used to say: Many of my patients are guilt-ridden and fear-ridden traditional Christians and Jews.

===============================================================
It is important to understand that believing in and having faith that a thing is possible and worth looking into is not the same as KNOWING. As we read in Hebrews 11--a letter in the NT, supposedly written by Paul: "Faith is the substance of things hope for..." Faith is a precursor to knowledge, but knowledge does away with the need for faith.

For example, certain scientists (not all), prior to 1969, believed that one day we would land people on the moon. Since then, we all know than it can be done.

BTW, I don't remember one apology by the naysayers.

THE EXPLORATION OF OUTER SPACE
=============================
Many scientists today--plus those of us interested in science--believe that it is possible that there could be life, in any numbers of forms, out there in outer space. Based on this, no one that I know of--at least among the ones who are thinkers--says it is a waste of time and money to explore what is going on in outer space.

THE EXPLORATION OF INNER SPACE
=============================
But what about inner space?

This brings us to the importance of psychology, the study of the mind in animals and human beings, and to pneumatology,the study of spirituality, which, IMO, is peculiar to human, especially humane, beings.

I make no apologies for advocating the exploration of what is going on in the psyche (mind) of man and animals, and the human pneuma (the spirit).

IMO, understanding what is going on in the "inner space" of the unconscious and conscious mind could help us avoid the mistakes made by the early explorers of earth. Virtually all, including the so-called Christians, were motivated by pride and the greed for power and wealth. This made them immoral and unethical colonizers who looked on the "lesser breeds, without the law" as fair fame for conquest and converts to the one TRUE Faith. To this very day many are still feeling the pain and suffering caused by the sinful and evil natures of our ancestors.

DO WE REALLY WANT TO BE TRULY HUMANE BEINGS?
============================================
The more we understand who we are, for better or for worse; and understand why we do what we do--whether it be good or evil--the more control we will have in achieving what I feel ought to be the goal of all human beings: our becoming kind, honest, loving, just, moral and ethical humane beings.

BFP, please, be fair and try not to put your spin on my words. I will do my best to do the same for you.


Edited by Revlgking (04/21/08 03:56 PM)

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#25564 - 04/21/08 04:57 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Revlgking]
big fat pig Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 97
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
I claim that there is enough evidence, at least for me and millions of others--may not be for you--to believe that it is possible that the mind (psyche) and the soul/spirit (pneuma) survive death of the body (soma).


i believe that most of the 'paranormal' phenomena that exists can be explained using existing scientific knowledge.


Edited by big fat pig (04/21/08 04:58 PM)
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#25566 - 04/21/08 06:19 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: big fat pig]
Zig Zag Wanderer
Unregistered


What a pleasure it's been reading this discussion. I found this site completely by accident today and I've spent a good few hours reading all the points made - I'll need to think it all over before I decide if I have anything to add to the debate.

I really just wanted to say that I'd given up on finding an internet forum where people debate civilly and genuinely consider other people's point of view before submitting a reply - and that goes for any topic you care to mention. For the subject to be one as (usually) provocative as atheism makes my surprise all the greater.

Thank you all - you've made my day!

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#25577 - 04/21/08 08:43 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: ]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
ZZ-W. welcome! And what an intellectual pleasure it is to meet such as you.

Welcome to a group of posters of whom I am very proud. I have the highest regard for all of my fellow posters. No flaming, at all. It seems that we all agree to disagree, agreeably--even lovingly.

For example, if I ever feel negative about a response I always ask the poster: What did you REALLY mean by what you wrote? Did you really mean to say such and so and so?


Edited by Revlgking (04/21/08 08:47 PM)

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#25581 - 04/21/08 08:52 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: big fat pig]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: big fat pig
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
I claim that there is enough evidence, at least for me and millions of others--may not be for you--to believe that it is possible that the mind (psyche) and the soul/spirit (pneuma) survive death of the body (soma).


i believe that most of the 'paranormal' phenomena that exists can be explained using existing scientific knowledge.
BFP, note that I used the term 'believe'. I also said: IT IS POSSIBLE...
I did not say that it is a FACT.

Good try! laugh

BTW, I respect your opinion about 'paranormal' phenomena.

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#25584 - 04/21/08 09:57 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: ]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Zig Zag Wanderer
What a pleasure it's been reading this discussion. I found this site completely by accident today and I've spent a good few hours reading all the points made - I'll need to think it all over before I decide if I have anything to add to the debate.

I really just wanted to say that I'd given up on finding an internet forum where people debate civilly and genuinely consider other people's point of view before submitting a reply - and that goes for any topic you care to mention. For the subject to be one as (usually) provocative as atheism makes my surprise all the greater.

Thank you all - you've made my day!

Welcome Wanderer...
...and still a wonderful discussion:

Again, I'm catching up....

I'm quite surprised to see the discussion of Karma.
I must say that I agree with all that has been said: no divine retribution, predestination, inherited sin, punished criminals or rewarded pious, etc....

But I feel this picture of Karma is too personalized and immediate, according to how I learned it back in my philosophy classes.

It would much easier translate karma into "the big picture of evolution" or simply, "god's plan...."
Karma, like evolution, exists whether you believe in it or not. madsmirk

...nor can we be aware of how Karma affects us, except within the smallest of karmic cycles.
...nor can we see how the small karmic cycles affect the criminals or the pious.

As one small example of how our "sins" do visit our descendants, look at epigenetics....
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/310/5755/1760?ck=nck
grin

...btw
It is more the revelations of physics that gives me hope for a more metaphysical side to the universe.
Cognitive and neuro-sciences are studies of the biochemistry which is already derivative to the physics behind it all, so they would not be expected to reveal anything metaphysical.
smile
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#25586 - 04/21/08 10:39 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Revlgking]
big fat pig Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 97
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Originally Posted By: big fat pig
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
I claim that there is enough evidence, at least for me and millions of others--may not be for you--to believe that it is possible that the mind (psyche) and the soul/spirit (pneuma) survive death of the body (soma).


i believe that most of the 'paranormal' phenomena that exists can be explained using existing scientific knowledge.
BFP, note that I used the term 'believe'. I also said: IT IS POSSIBLE...
I did not say that it is a FACT.

Good try! laugh

BTW, I respect your opinion about 'paranormal' phenomena.

actually...

define: evidence - facts that indicate whether or not something is true; proof.

so when presenting evidence, you are basically presenting proof that a belief is actually fact... now you said:

"I claim that there is enough evidence... to believe that it is possible that the mind (psyche) and the soul/spirit (pneuma) survive death of the body (soma)."

rereading this quote several times, I'm confused now: it makes no sense; you don't need evidence to believe something, so why did you say there is enough evidence to allow for belief?

but regardless; i want to know what/where this evidence is...?
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#25590 - 04/22/08 12:13 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: big fat pig]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
BFP: I have no idea what you are trying, so hard, to prove.

Does anyone else?

If you want to prove that it wrong for anyone to have a belief, or opinion, say so. Then present your evidence.

Keep in mind: Nowhere did I say: I have scientific evidence that life after death is a FACT.

Why do you keep on insisting that I do?

Is it because you are confused? As you admit about yourself: "I'm confused now..."


Edited by Revlgking (04/22/08 12:26 AM)

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#25591 - 04/22/08 12:37 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: big fat pig]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: big fat pig

rereading this quote several times... it makes no sense; you don't need evidence to believe something, so why did you say there is enough evidence to allow for belief?

but regardless; i want to know what/where this evidence is...?


I think bfp has the upper hand here, semantically.

But this all comes down to how we define evidence; scientifically -material evidence is one thing, while evidence of the metaphysical is uhhh, metaphysical?

To paraphrase TFF....
...belief of evidence is not evidence of belief.
...but I'm just being cute here; not trying to make a point, though... "allowing for belief...."
smile
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#25599 - 04/22/08 01:59 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: samwik]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Sam, right on! We must never confuse belief with actuality.
Atheists believe that all life ends at death. But belief is not evidence. It is belief.


Edited by Revlgking (04/22/08 02:01 AM)

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#25603 - 04/22/08 03:06 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Revlgking]
big fat pig Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 97
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
BFP: I have no idea what you are trying, so hard, to prove.

Does anyone else?

If you want to prove that it wrong for anyone to have a belief, or opinion, say so. Then present your evidence.

Keep in mind: Nowhere did I say: I have scientific evidence that life after death is a FACT.

Why do you keep on insisting that I do?

Is it because you are confused? As you admit about yourself: "I'm confused now..."


i'm not trying to prove anything, im just interested as to what the evidence is that you mentioned;
"I claim that there is enough evidence..."
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#25612 - 04/22/08 04:39 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: big fat pig]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Religion is "faith based". You believe or you don't. I believe through faith. But if you want to look at it scientifically just look at conciousness as energy and when the body dies conciousness goes somewhere else. I can't prove it with a picture or mathematical formula. But neither can anyone prove the contrary. If they could, we wouldn't be having this discussion right now. I will say this and I am through with the religion discussion.
1) I don't believe we are a mistake
2) I don't believe we "evolved" from apes-maybe a helping hand from a divine source, but too many flaws in the fossil record.
Man has a habit of making lines out of dots.
3) You don't destroy energy-so if conciousness is energy--------
4) If you read the Bible there are things phophesized that I just don't think were lucky guesses

We will all find out in due time

odin1
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#25624 - 04/22/08 05:55 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: odin1]
big fat pig Offline
Member

Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 97
consciousness isn't energy; its a functional state of the mind, kind of like mental visualization. there is nothing special about it, all animals are conscious on different levels. just because we're better at introspection than every other animal it doesn't make us capable of 'life after death'. life after death is an just a superstition.

if you read the Vedas you will see that they aren't just myths wink and Ron Hubbard's book of Scientology, not just myths too wink

its all fair game when it comes to 'which religion is right' plus; as far as prophesies go, Nostradamus didn't make any predictions at all; it was all so arbitrary and ambiguous that it could have described any event in history. as for any other prophesies; there haven't been any particular prophesies which came true.
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#25630 - 04/22/08 09:10 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: big fat pig]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Odin1, as you write:
Quote:
Religion is "faith based".
I agree. It is also a very personal thing. This is why I prefer to dialogue, not debate, dictate or indoctrinate. I am fond of using expressions such as, "In my opinion (IMO)..."

ABOUT GOD--THEISM
=================
BTW, about God. In English, the name 'God' is used by millions of people in all religions. They use it--I used to use it--to refer to the one who they think of as an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving and everywhere-present being, up and/or out there.

The Bible speaks of God as if He is a male-like, three-dimensional, and super being who wills, speaks and acts with absolute authority.

As I understand it, those who do not believe in God call themselves atheists--from the Greek for God, Theos.

As a unitheist, I have a different concept of the one powerful and good idea. For me, GØD is not some kind of a three-dimensional and masculine-like being who will this, that and the other thing. Thus I use the acronym 'GØD'--goodness, order and design.

I BELIEVE that the universe, potentially speaking, can be filled with moral and ethical goodness, with mathematical precision and order, and with beauty and artistic design. In other words: If we so choose, with and attitude of Love (GØD is Love), we can be one with GØD, forever and ever.

How real is GØD? For me GØD is as real as space/time and as the next breath I take (GØD is Spirit). GØD is self-evident being, itself. It can be for anyone who so chooses.

Why would anyone choose otherwise--non being?


Edited by Revlgking (04/22/08 09:15 PM)
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#25631 - 04/22/08 10:35 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Revlgking]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Odin1, as you write:
Quote:
Religion is "faith based".
I agree. It is also a very personal thing. This is why I prefer to dialogue, not debate, dictate or indoctrinate. I am fond of using expressions such as, "In my opinion (IMO)..."

ABOUT GOD--THEISM
=================
BTW, about God. In English, the name 'God' is used by millions of people in all religions. They use it--I used to use it--to refer to the one who they think of as an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving and everywhere-present being, up and/or out there.

The Bible speaks of God as if He is a male-like, three-dimensional, and super being who wills, speaks and acts with absolute authority.

As I understand it, those who do not believe in God call themselves atheists--from the Greek for God, Theos.

As a unitheist, I have a different concept of the one powerful and good idea. For me, GØD is not some kind of a three-dimensional and masculine-like being who will this, that and the other thing. Thus I use the acronym 'GØD'--goodness, order and design.

I BELIEVE that the universe, potentially speaking, can be filled with moral and ethical goodness, with mathematical precision and order, and with beauty and artistic design. In other words: If we so choose, with and attitude of Love (GØD is Love), we can be one with GØD, forever and ever.

How real is GØD? For me GØD is as real as space/time and as the next breath I take (GØD is Spirit). GØD is self-evident being, itself. It can be for anyone who so chooses.

Why would anyone choose otherwise--non being?
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
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#25633 - 04/22/08 10:48 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Revlgking]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Hello Revlgking,

Good to hear from you. I said I was not going to get involved anymore in this forum on religion in a previous post I made, but you said an interesting thing that I agree completely with:

"This is why I prefer to dialogue, not debate, dictate or indoctrinate. I am fond of using expressions such as, "In my opinion (IMO)..."

I think sometimes, and I have came to his conclusion by listening to those that don't believe, that they are not angry at religion - but the radicalism of some christians, muslems, or whatever religion they come in contact with. I will say this, I have known some athiest that are more christian than some of the christians I know, and I don't mean that as a slur or sarcasm to anyone. I respect people for their actions not who they pray to on Sunday. Religion is a personal thing-I encourage everyone to believe, but that is a choice we have to take.

Thanks Revlgking,
odin1
_________________________
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#25635 - 04/23/08 01:07 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: odin1]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hmm...Personally I think that people use religion as an excuse because they can't face the fact that we're just here. What else is there to live for if you don't know why you're here, don't understand the world, and don't get seem to fit in? It's not a bad thing, I mean it's fine to believe in something if it makes you happy, except it creats wars that people seem to can't get in their heads its not even worth it. I think god is the world, which is nature and everything we've ever known. Instead of gods will or god's miricle, it is ours, we did it whether physically or mentally. We make our own paths.

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#25636 - 04/23/08 01:54 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Anonymous]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Anon, you write
Quote:
I think god is the world, which is nature and everything we've ever known. Instead of gods will or god's miracle, it is ours, we did it whether physically or mentally. We make our own paths.
I like it! Now, let us see where this takes us from here.

BTW: Good post, Odin1!


Edited by Revlgking (04/23/08 01:55 AM)
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