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#25387 - 04/13/08 01:37 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: RicS]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: RicS
G'day,

I find this discussion fascinating. I don't quite see how being an atheist means a person has no faith....

... As my life winds down towards its conclusion, all I can conclude is that love conquers all and: "In the end only kindness matters."

With Love to all that Believe in Kindness. Regards, Richard
Richard, as a unitheist, I write: you are my kind of atheist and I offer all the kind of kindness I can muster.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#25388 - 04/13/08 02:17 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Ellis, you write,
Quote:
Now I'd better go away before Rev catches me posting!
I presume your intention is to make a joke. Okay, I am amused.
Now, let us put our mind to the question: What can we as a community of posters do to be of practical help to people like Richard?--one of us. As one who believes that we are all ONE in the ONE, I BELIEVE that there is a solution.

Richard, how open are you to suggestions?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#25389 - 04/13/08 03:29 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Ellis]
Anonymous
Unregistered


A atheist is a person who has no god. Probably most atheists have no faith either. It isn't necessary for one to have "faith" in science to use it.

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#25390 - 04/13/08 04:51 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Anonymous]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
RicS, I know your post wasn't meant to 'impress' - it's nonetheless very impressive. Very well said.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#25392 - 04/13/08 06:04 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
RicS- I am sure you know that I did not mean an atheist has no faith-- we all have faith in various things--- I meant an atheist has no "faith" (as defined by Rev).

Rev- Do not belabour the point. I chose to make light of a rather uncivil comment of yours, after all "a soft answer turneth away wrath."

Anon- An atheist is one who has no belief (faith) in a god. There is no such thing as the divine (gods) unless there is belief. It is impossible to prove belief however, just as it is impossible to prove or indeed disprove that the divine/god exists. If you are a believer that does not matter because you do not need proof-- you have faith and believe. It is the faith/ belief that creates the god/divine not the other way round.

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#25393 - 04/13/08 12:26 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Quote:
Anon- An atheist is one who has no belief (faith) in a god. There is no such thing as the divine (gods)...
Ellis writes.

AS A HUMANE BEING
=================
Anon, welcome. I have said this before: As a humane being and as a unitheist, without claiming to understand it all, I accept the unity (the holos) of all that is.

Here is where I agree with moral, ethical and loving atheists: Like them I find it impossible to imagine and do not believe that there is 'a' three-dimensional god, or gods, anymore than I believe there is 'a' physical Santa Claus living at the north pole. I have the feeling that most educated theists think the same way. Let me explain it as I understand it.

'TRINITY' COMES FROM TRI-UNITY
=============================
By the way, as I understand it: when theologians--and I have read widely in theology--speak of "God in three persons", they are not using the word 'person' in the same way that the average person uses it.

The Latin 'persona' (literally meaning 'to sound through') refers to the mask worn by actors--masks of the drama. Do we not all wear our 'personalities' like masks?

For educated theists God wears an infinite number of masks, which science is uncovering even as we read. However, according to the teaching about the tri-unity, God wears at least three masks: Creator (Father), Creation (the universe and us) and the Spirit (life in all its mystery).

Many people, especially those with a linear mind, find it difficult to think in the old metaphors. Therefore,

IMO, WE NEED NEW METAPHORS
========================
Here is mine: The god-concept that I have in my mind is as real to me as the physical, mental and spiritual cosmos of which I am--as we all are--an essential part.

But keep in mind: only the physical universe is concrete, three-dimensional, and capable of being explored by the hard sciences. I see the physical universe as being filled, at least potentially, with goodness (G), order (Ø) and design (D). This is why I like using GØD as the over-all symbol. This symbol, for me, carries over into the universe as mind and spirit. This is the realm of philosophy and religion with potential ad infinitum.

The important question for me is: Now that I am here in the universe, in GØD, what is the meaning and purpose of it all?




_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#25395 - 04/13/08 05:09 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Revlgking]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
One may live his or her life an atheist and enjoy some of the fruits many of us believers have declined. But that last few moments of life if you are privilidged to have that, that time when the last breath will leave your lungs and you are wondering what is next. Will I see that entity I have heard of all these years known as God, or is everything just goint to turn black and quiet with no recolection of anything. Are there really any atheist on the death bed? If you compare your life to a dot in a
line that never ends it is really stupid not to believe in a divine entity. When you gamble don't consider what you will gain, ask what you may lose. If you can't afford to lose don't gamble. think about it .
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#25398 - 04/13/08 05:53 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: odin1]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Odin,
Pascal's wager is based on faulty logic. There are an infinite number of conceivable deities. Some of them might punish a person severely for being gullible enough to believe in the others. Once one begins calculating probabilities that are inherently outside the realm of science, one is just making stuff up.

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#25400 - 04/13/08 05:57 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: odin1]
RicS Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 03/26/06
Posts: 310
Loc: Sydney, Australia
G'day odin1,

Ah, the old "there are no atheists in a foxhole approach". Sorry to burst your bubble but I know of a great many people who became atheists as a result of being in a foxhole. The brutality of war often causes people to lose faith rather than to gain it, in my experience. I have lived a rather full life. That included being in the Army, the Navy and two different Police Forces.

I would suggest that your reasoning for being religious is seriously warped. No personal offence meant by this by the way. You simply are suggesting that why take the risk? A truly compassionate greater being would not care whether you believed in Him/Her, only that you were a good person and a really compassionate greater being would forgive those that were not even good people on the basis that the cards may have been stacked terribly against them, or through some quirck of nature they have too many dopomine recepters in their brain and prone to become addicts and not be able to escape from the addiction or whatever.

And if you are basing the worth of being religious on escaping endless nothingness then just what God should you choose? Each tend to be mutually exclusive. I rather like the appalllingly immoral sidekick in the Mummy movie where he, faced with a demigod, gets out a huge array of religious artifacts and says the appropriate prayer for each religion to them. In your world, hey presto, if he managed to prey to the right one and then was killed he would be saved. Of course, his repentance may not have been sincere and he might have to face the wrath of God for such insincerity. Funnily enough he does pray to the "right" God, by offering a Hebrew prayer and the Mummy spares his life. So at least in the movies it actually works!

You ask are their really any atheist on the death bed? I can speak only for myself and answer yes, they most certainly are. I've "died" twice and lost consciousness believing that I would not survive a couple of other times. I can clearly remember my thoughts just prior to unconsciousness and in none of these incidents did I repent, prey to any God, or do anything that would suggest that I might not be an atheist after all.

Now, you'd have to know my rather complicated medical history to understand that someone could even reach the stage where this sort of thing could happen to them and more than once, and perhaps by now you believe I'm making things up to score points.

I'm not by the way but you will have to take that on faith, because I am just not going to offer proof on a public forum such as this.

Here I am at 3.30am typing on this post deciding whether I should call an ambulance. I have a raging infection that has dramatically increased in the last several hours and now have chills and fevers. I tried a long time ago, when I was terribly depressed, suffering from unremitting pain and had just been accussed of being a drug addict and malinger and refused treatment at a major hospital, to commit suicide. As it turned out my condition was so bad I had no resources to do it aside from rolling into the path of a car. I considered this for a moment and then rejected it because the last thing I wanted was someone else to carry the quilt of killing someone, whether it was their fault or not. I had seen just how destructive such situations could be and was not prepared to cause such harm.

I thought I was doing the right thing, protecting my family from endless debts and pain upon pain. It is not just those that suffer a serious disability that feel pain. The pain and anguish this can cause to their family can actually be worse. The next day it was found out that a procedure had been stuffed up by a doctor destroying a number of spinal nerves and causing very high pain levels and over three weeks the pain at least was dialed back. My pyschiatrist saw me the next day and abused hell out of me. He did this for almost four hours. He really laid into me about how selfish I was and how much damage I would have done. He went into enormous detail of just how much damage a daughter suffers from a suiciding Dad when they are of the age of my youngest daughter, of the therapy they often need even when they are 50, and of the harm that a wife suffers and the very high potential for a second suicide because of guilt or the inability to ever relate to others again.

So suicide has never been an option for me after that, no matter how bad my condition gets or what setbacks occur. I'm not sure I have the strength to go on if my wife could no longer cope but otherwise I have kept my promise to my doctor.

But dying from my condition. That is completely different. If I go to the hospital right now they will probably save me from dying but not improve the infection I have by much at all or the underlying cause. What they will do is just make it harder for my wife to cope. The condition is likely to cause amputation in the near future and I've had enough operations to last several lifetimes. So while the fever worsens I'm writing this post rather than calling an ambulance. I personally believe this completely proves my point. I haven't for a moment thought that I should repent and prey to anyone.

Since we were served with eviction last week and only have electricity because we have a "no disconnection" order on our property, it is rather hard for me to see how our plight is going to improve any time soon.

But my family's certainly might. The current infection is due to very clear medical negligence. Legal experts have already been retained. My wife has a reasonably wealthy mother who would have no trouble providing housing for her. She wouldn't for me as well but she never did like me much and thinks I'm a lousy provider. She's actually quite right with that assessment. So sometimes doing nothing isn't a bad thing.

Because I worry so much about my wife, I'll probably call the ambulance eventually. I don't want to. But sometimes you have to do what you would rather not. Score another point for an atheist choosing to be good for no better reason than to limit harm to others.

Whether this post stays here or I remove it, I'll see. This is a painful post written while rational thought is perhaps not working very well.

It will certainly be the last post I make to this thread. I've said what I wanted to say and made the point that I believe in, mostly in my first post. There are a couple of people who know my actual identity on this site. DO NOT abuse that knowledge please.

Have faith. Do good. Be Happy.


Richard

_________________________
Sane=fits in. Unreasonable=world needs to fit to him. All Progress requires unreasonableness

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#25402 - 04/13/08 08:00 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: RicS]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Hello Richard,

First let me say I never said an atheist was a bad person. There is no doubt in my mind many atheist are good people that make their marks everyday on the world. the good thing about God is this, he believes in Democracy because he gives us a choice. I choose to believe, because I don't think we are an accident or fluke of nature. You have had your experiences and I respect them and your situation right now. I have never laid on my death bed, but I know people that have. Their story was different than yours. For what reason I don't know. I never ask someone if they are a christian. I feel religion is a personal thing, none of my business. However, I don't think it really matters if you call God "Jehova or Ali" that I feel is a cultural thing. I don't think god cares what we call him or what we think he looks like. So, I don't get angry at God because of the ignorance and clannish ways of the human race. The message he brings is the important thing. I have never seen God that I know of. I live on faith that one day when I leave this world I will go to a place where people don't attack you because you don't think like they do. I hope like hell mankind is not the superion being in this universe. I will stick to my faith. I hope everything gets better for you and I wish you the best.
Best Regards
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#25403 - 04/13/08 08:12 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: odin1]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Hello FallibleFiend

There is no doubt religion is confusing, I will be the first to admit it. As I told Richard, I feel religion is a personal thing. There are those in all religions that damn you to torment if you don't dance to their version of the fiddle of religion. But remember, these are "human beings" condeming you with their warped opinions of the scriptures whatever religion. If you remember prior to Martin Luther in Germany the church dictated what the Bible said. When it was printed in German and put in print the average person could read the bible and interpret it for theirselves. Each of us is responsible for ourselves don't worry about what other people say. Don't throw away the message because you don't like the messenger.

Best Regards
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#25410 - 04/13/08 10:35 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: odin1]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Odin1, welcome. Thanks for your thoughtful posts. Tell us more about your faith journey. Perhaps we need a thread where posters will answer the question: Who are you? Or do you prefer to remain unknown?
BTW, what is your opinion of reincarnation?

Me? I do not look on reincarnation as a reward, but rather a form of discipline. IMO, if I do harm to others here, I will need to face discipline in the next life in this dimension.

Personally, I hope to avoid it and move on to higher spiritual realms and............

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#25411 - 04/13/08 11:29 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Revlgking]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
Hello Revlgking,

Good to hear from you. I am no one special. I live in the outskirts of a small town, raised as a southern baptist. I am no saint, all the saints are in heaven, but I do believe in a divine entity and I feel the world would be a better place if all the major religions (which basically preach the same thing)would practice what they preach ! I can understand why some people have lost faith, the church has in a lot of ways let many people down. But as I said earlier, religion is a personal thing and despite the drawbacks it is man that should be blamed not the creator.

You ask if I believe in reincarnation. That is a good question.
Who knows how many times we return to this earth and I have never seen anything in the bible or heard anything preached that reincarnation does not occur. And in my humble opionion, I really don't think it matters to god if we believe we will be reborn in another life or go to heaven. I think these are minor infractions we squabble about. I think god wants us to prepare ourselve for his service in his kingdom and that may include living several lifes. After all, he is god he can do whatever he wants! Until, i read some of the bible myself I never had a
clear understanding of what it was trying to say. As I said before, Martin Luther made it possible for the common man to read the word and grasp it for himself.

I will accept whatever it will be, another body in another time or walking through the gates of heaven. I wish I could give you a better answer, but I gave you an honest answer. Stay in touch.

Best Regards,
odin1

_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#25412 - 04/13/08 11:51 PM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: odin1]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
My apologies; I'm a week behind, but:

I ran across this recently, and wanted to share.

http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9096&SectionName=&PlayMedia=No
Originally Posted By: cspan's BookTV
Cardinal Schönborn argues that science and religion are not incompatible and that dogmatism on either side is unsupportable. He spoke at an event hosted by the Dominican School of Philosophy and Theology in Berkeley, California.

As a part of the presentation, Alex García-Rivera, author of “Endless Forms most Beautiful,” actually mentions pneumatology!

~brb cool
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#25415 - 04/14/08 01:25 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: samwik]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Ric- Stay with us as long as possible. I do not know who you are, but you sound very clear headed in a situation which would rob others of their spirit. You also seek to take care of your wife. I do not presume to offer advice but in fact I am married to someone with a relenting disease which has taken away most of his great abilities. However his intelligence and personality are still there and I remember him in the 'before' as well as the 'now'. I also know that if things were different he would have supported me, as he indeed did and still does. Incidently odin, he too shares my ideas regarding god.

I previously explained the moment when I realised I didn't think there was anything 'out there'. There was no great drama. I was near death and realised after it was resolved that I had not once called on god. I was just determined to see my new little daughter, which thanks to excellent medical care, I did. So I don't believe that 'everyone is a believer on their deathbed'. Some embrace god but others, like Ric and me, do not.

And odin, both Ric and I live in Australia- and here your religion is NOT important. No one would ever ask another person what their religion was or if they attended church. 21 members of our parliament affirmed their oath of office rather than swear on a bible recently, and did this without comment. It's a different atmosphere- not necessarily better- but certainly different.

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#25417 - 04/14/08 02:41 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Ellis]
odin1 Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/13/08
Posts: 136
Loc: North Carolina, USA
The atmosphere here in the USA concerning religion is a little different. This country was settled for religious freedom. We have separation of church and state, which right now is causing a great debate in this country. If you read your history Henry the VIII started the church of England because he got mad at the pope. The pope would not allow a divorce for the King. So, Henry started the church of England which was government sponsored church. You were a member of that or catholic. Separation of church and state means government can't sponsor church, it does not mean that you can't hang the 10 commandments in a Federal building. I mean, lets be real, even if you don't believe in God what is wrong with "thou shalt not kill"? What I am getting to is this, the trouble between atheism and christianity in this country is the atheist want their beliefs crammed down everyones throat. And I understand christianity has done the same in areas -it is a two sided sword. But no one has to go to church on Sunday if they don't want to, and I feel that if I were an athiest and really believed that there were no god, no afterlife that 10 commandments posted on the wall in a building or a manger scene at christmas in a store window would really upset the balance of the universe, because who would care? I could talk to you for hours about the wrongs done in the name of christianity, but not by christianity. No one has ever said heaven is here on earth, and people have their own interpretation of things. Again, religion is a personal thing
imagine what the world would be like if no one believed in nothing, again I believe and repect your right not to.

I would like to tell you something funny though. I have a friend from Germany that moved here years ago. In Germany you pay a tax for the religion or church you are a member and the government gives the money to the church. He had a cousin that thought he was going to get out of paying church taxes so he registered as an atheist. To his surprise there was an atheist tax ! No way to win.

Best Regards,
odin1
_________________________
People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1



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#25420 - 04/14/08 04:03 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: odin1]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Odin1 writes
Quote:
Who knows how many times we return to this earth and I have never seen anything in the bible or heard anything preached that reincarnation does not occur.
BTW, I am not dogmatic about the idea of reincarnation. I just accept that it is okay to dialogue about it as one of the possibilities life has to offer. I also am impressed that it is so widely accepted by so many people--Buddhists and Hindus--in the east.

THE BIBLE AND REINCARNATION
===========================
The book of Job 33:15...--especially verses 29,30--implies the concept of reincarnation. Also, check out Matthew 17: 10-13. Many modern Jews believe that Jeremiah will return and introduce the Messiah.
BTW, while I will often quote the Bible as a reference, I find it of little value to prove a point, or to use as a book of rules.

Some of the rules make sense, but some do not. For example, read Deuteronomy 21: 18-21. How many Bible believers think that rebellious teenagers ought to be stoned to death, in public?

SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT
========================
Speaking with tongue-in-cheek, I wonder if it would cure the problem? If it would, maybe we ought to give it a try smile

Or how about this: Start off by pelting the offender with small stones. If the youth repents and vows to stop being offensive, before you get to the medium and larger ones, then its a win/win, eh?

It is obvious that all Bible believers pick and choose the Bible verses they want to take seriously.


Edited by Revlgking (04/14/08 04:11 AM)

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#25423 - 04/14/08 06:23 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Revlgking]
Tim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 192
Loc: California
Well at the time those maybe have been effective, or even necessary, laws...but they have all but been out-dated in today's post-modern society.
I dont wanna be stoned!

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#25424 - 04/14/08 06:46 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Tim]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
odin- The Church of England was not founded so that Henry VIII could get a divorce. The was much unrest at the time within the church (which at the time was administered from Rome). Many of the more educated members of the churches wished to read the Bible for themselves and make up their own minds regarding the doctrines of the church. There were many of these people all over Europe (I notice you mention Martin Luther) protesting about the power of the Roman Catholic Church, so they were called protestants. There were such movements in Britain too, and it was therefore easy for the king to appropriate them and announce that he was the Defender of the Faith in Britain. In actual fact Henry was a very learned and intelligent monarch, with a strong religious faith, who went a bit off the rails and got greedy! He went with the spirit of the times though, many people were glad to see the end of the power of the church as it existed then.

That is a much simplified account of Henry and the dissolution of the monasteries, but it is a bigger simplification to assume that Henry merely wanted to marry Anne Boleyn (in spite of the movies and TV!)

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#25425 - 04/14/08 07:48 AM Re: To all Atheists: [Re: Ellis]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Again, my apologies for not being caught up.

...but for the past week....

http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=25326#Post25326
post re: definitions, supernatural

p.s. Revl: Thanks for the summary of "conservations-with-god."
I've got it on my Kindle "wish list."

http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=25332#Post25332
Originally Posted By: Revl.
Sam, it seems to me what you are saying is this: We need to look on differences of race, language, culture and religion, whatever, not as divisive ones, but as enriching differences. IMO. if someone happens to speak a different language the opportunity is to find the best translation, not to use it as an excuse to develop a feeling of alienation.

This sounds hard to argue with, but let me try. smile

...not enriching differences; but perhaps, enrichingly different expression of a fundamental sameness.

...or not to find the best translation; but perhaps, to only know that a translation is possible while leaving the details vague.

Originally Posted By: 25326
A definition's effect on a person is what should be acceptingly comprehended (or translated).
...avoiding the quality of details ...or perception of many differences.

As Ellis point out, this is a bit of a cop-out. smile
...but,
Originally Posted By: Ellis#25345
...or whatever is being discussed at the time as a defining aspect of the divine
"as a defining aspect" is the point where we need to be able to translate on a different level; assuming concordance to begin with, and adding reservations only as needed.

I still think it's a 'best starting point,' from which to see how much cooperation can be achieved, before finding too much difference in the details.

As an example, in that 'Cardinal Schönborn thing,'
http://www.booktv.org/program.aspx?ProgramId=9096&SectionName=&PlayMedia=No
he refers to another source:

"In the Beginning" is an annotated version of a 4-homily series delivered by Joseph Ratzinger (now the Pope) in Munich (1981). Subtitled A Catholic Understanding of the Story of Creation and the Fall, the book was published in Germany in 1985 and is now available in English translation.

Schönborn says Ratzinger talks about "Divine Intervention and Evolution," suggesting that it is incorrect to see intervention as some "extrinsic" factor or agent; but that it must be understood as intrinsic to every step of creation and evolution.

See? I mean... c'mon, y'know; it's like, well -gee. How can, wait- I know... if you what? ...define intrinsic...
[Hey, that's the word you need in your signature, Revl!]

Okay, so if you're defining an intervention as not extrinsic, then what is the difference between divine intervention and the laws of physics (intrinsic to evolution).
No wonder the Catholics accept evolution. smile

...meanwhile, continuing along the past week....
I liked Warren's term, crypto-natural!
& "...issues of meaning, purpose, etc...."
...to evolve; to save the Creation so others may too evolve?
...or to express God's love?
...what's the difference?


Originally Posted By: 25361
Revl. you ask, "I am interested in knowing: What is the "faith" of atheists?"
Would it be faith that the material world is all that exists.
...of course, ...guess it's depending on how you define 'material' and 'exists.' smile


Originally Posted By: 25379
...a lot of fun questions... including: ...inspired by bfp:
Do all atheists believe that human beings are simply clever animals?
Are we simply one of the accidents of evolution?
Is there any "simple" difference between animals, if G0d is intrinsic? Are there accidents in evolution, if G0d is intrinsic? Whether defined as an accident or a culmination, the result is the same.


Originally Posted By: 25385-Richard!
Since there is a great deal of systems for the universe that are not understood, to accept any system as possible or likely is to exercise faith. Good one!
...also, re: your comments:
Michael Shermer, "Mind of the Market" (on my Kindle), argues for the natural evolution of altruism.
...but apparently infanticide was much more common throughout human history (and even currently) than is commonly recognized.


LOL Richard,"I still feel guilt about it believe it or not;" but think how good you made her feel. smile


...and how do we define "faith?"
Originally Posted By: #25389, Anon
It isn't necessary for one to have "faith" in science to use it.
Very Good Point!


Originally Posted By: #25392, Ellis
...I meant an atheist has no "faith" (as defined by Rev).
...no comment (it's just too late?)tired

-END- April 12, 2008

...and I'm still not caught up!
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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