Welcome to
Science a GoGo's
Discussion Forums
Please keep your postings on-topic or they will be moved to a galaxy far, far away.
Your use of this forum indicates your agreement to our terms of use.
So that we remain spam-free, please note that all posts by new users are moderated.


The Forums
General Science Talk        Not-Quite-Science        Climate Change Discussion        Physics Forum        Science Fiction

Who's Online
0 registered (), 174 Guests and 0 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Posts
welcome to the newly developing glaciation period.
by paul
10/24/19 03:23 PM
Potatoes on Mars
by paul
10/24/19 02:55 PM
Fishing , baiting the hook.
by paul
10/24/19 02:43 PM
F=mv ... mv=F
by paul
10/24/19 02:37 PM
Do we have a moderator?
by paul
10/23/19 12:30 AM
Is there anybody out there?
by paul
10/23/19 12:22 AM
Top Posters (30 Days)
paul 13
Topic Options
#25413 - 04/14/08 12:58 AM Ben's Stein's Expelled: Promoting divisiveness?
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
I wrote a little review of the "Expelled" trailer to follow up on a post (elsewhere) advocating a more conciliatory attitude towards religious folks. Basically I was saying that we all experience the world similarly, but use different worldviews and languages to express our understanding of "reality." I was advocating that we learn to loosely "translate;" but avoid the details of exact definitions, realizing that the devil is in the details. grin
http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=25326#Post25326

Originally Posted By: me
Ben Stein's, Expelled, is a perfect example of this. He's whipping up a frenzy by playing up these semantic failings.
...Speaking of scientists, Ben says,
"Rather than God's Handiwork, they see the universe as the product of random particle collisions and chemical reactions...."
God's handiwork, or Laws of physics; what's the difference?
God's plan, or Laws of evolution; what's the difference?
Ben refers to,
"The product of a Higher Intelligence,"
but couldn't that be defined as the product of the Physical Constants; what's the difference?

I can't believe that Ben uses the tactic of addressing "Darwinism."
To call anything in science an -ism, just furthers the polarization of definitions.
The idea that things descend with modification is not a good basis for any *ism-type "belief system."
It's just a good framework for understanding how variation arises.

Originally Posted By: cont'd.
Ben asks "what's the difference" with science, that 'freedom of speech" is not tolerated well.
Hey Ben, can I come to your church and speak freely, and be tolerated well?
Context and purpose, Ben, is the difference!
Furthering the "perfect example," this has all arisen because of scientist's "self-righteous" over-reaction to some article that talked about Intell. Design.
Science deals with 'what' and 'how' of what is here; not with the 'why' or from 'where' it came, ultimately.
Science doesn't address with this topic of origins and motives; isn't that for philosophy, to ask 'who', not how?
Why should scientists care if someone wants to attribute a purpose to the universe?
I understand why science, as Ben says, "fears," these philosophical ideas.
Surely, it is a slippery slope to wind up dealing with a certain "Intelligence" with a particular "Design."
That certainly is something to be feared, but scientists should have faith in the strength of their discipline (and disciples); that the slope can be navigated, with care, empathy, and tactics (diplomacy).


Has anyone seen the "trailer?"

I feel that I should go to the movie and stand up at the end and shout: Science and evolution have nothing to do with creation and divine intervention.
Well, maybe not; too easy to misinterpret.

Shouldn't something be shouted?
confused


_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
.
#25430 - 04/14/08 04:01 PM Re: Ben's Stein's Expelled: Promoting divisiveness [Re: samwik]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Ben Stein is a pompous, pseudo-intellectual twit who is far out of his depth in the sciences. Ironically, while his movie attempts to portray anti-evolution as a free-speech issue, he had some thugs evict P.Z. Meyers from a showing.

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins

Top
#25432 - 04/14/08 08:12 PM Re: Ben's Stein's Expelled: Promoting divisiveness [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Correction: It wasn't he, per se, but one of his cohorts who had Meyers evicted.

Top
#25452 - 04/15/08 10:53 PM Re: Ben's Stein's Expelled: Promoting divisiveness [Re: Anonymous]
Anonymous
Unregistered


A divisive film that draws people into a false debate of 'either-or' over an issue that is ultimately 'both-and'.

Todays religious institutions are suffering from an addiction to rationality and a need to 'prove' God exists. There's a reason we call our walk 'faith' and not 'proof'. Look up the definitions if this escapes you. Ben Stein needs to buy some bigger underwear, take a few deep breaths and lighten up a little- he makes this come across like it's a horror show.

There needs to be a clear understanding of what constitutes intellectual/analytical/secular knowledge on one hand, and religious/spiritual knowledge through experience on the other. There is no conflict here, rather a distinction between the two.

So much of our cultural debate between science and religion seems to assume that science and religion pose competing answers to the same question of 'why?' when, in fact, they pose different questions. Both are legitimate answers to the same question but there is a distinction between 'why' the way science asks about the mechanics of matter as in 'Why does that work like that?'; and 'why' as a theological question about the purpose of this universe as in 'Why am I here?'

It's like trying to use science to explain 'why' a piece of music stirs the soul. Science can provide the math that explains it's structure and mechanics, but God can only be found in the experience of the music- which transcends the equation or any words that can wholly express the stirring. Science is the dancer, God is the dance.

What the Promethean mind really finds scary is the insecurity of the paradox that both sides here belong, and so it naturally seeks the security of rational and logic. We're all guilty of that at one time or another. We humans have a tendency to avoid the spiritual space of duality and paradox.

If you consider yourself a person of faith in the slightest, I encourage you research Hindu physicist V.V. Raman's take on this subject to draw a more informed conclusion for yourself.
http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/heartsreason/unheardcuts.shtml

Top
#25463 - 04/16/08 01:33 PM Re: Ben's Stein's Expelled: Promoting divisiveness [Re: Anonymous]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
I infer that "Promethean mind" refers to one who shares the "light" with mortals or one who seeks or benefits from receiving the "light." I further infer that the term is meant to connote one who is a materialist.

Materialists, like religionists, are not of one mind on how to approach the subject of faith. Most of us don't have a problem with other people having and expressing their faith - so long as they don't expect the rest of us to play along with it.


Top
#25466 - 04/16/08 04:55 PM Re: Ben's Stein's Expelled: Promoting divisiveness [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
About a recent film, EXPELLED--defending the ideas of those who say that behind the universe there is an intelligent designer (God), Anon says that it is
Quote:
A divisive film that draws people into a false debate of 'either-or' over an issue that is ultimately 'both-and'.

Todays religious institutions are suffering from an addiction to rationality and a need to 'prove' God exists.
I agree. Have you read my last few comments in "To All Atheists"?

BTW, as a unitheist I do not have to prove that which is self-evident.


Edited by Revlgking (04/16/08 04:58 PM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

Top
#25494 - 04/18/08 03:16 AM Re: Ben's Stein's Expelled: Promoting divisiveness [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...

P.Z. Meyers in his own words: http://youtube.com/watch?v=oJtw3ObluDc

Top
#25583 - 04/21/08 09:31 PM Re: Ben's Stein's Expelled: Promoting divisiveness [Re: Revlgking]
Anonymous
Unregistered


from: "A divisive film that draws people into a false debate" guy...

I couldn't find your post you were referring to but if you give me a line from it I'll "exact phrase" google it which is how I re-found this. Not to keep reducing things down to simple quotes [which means I'm about to-] but this whole "argument' is just that- an argument. And so I am reminded...

"A just cause needs no interpreting. It carries its own case. But the unjust argument, since it is sick, needs clever medicine."

Regards

Top
#25621 - 04/22/08 04:33 PM Re: Ben's Stein's Expelled: Promoting divisiveness [Re: Anonymous]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Anonymous
from: "A divisive film that draws people into a false debate" guy...
I couldn't find your post you were referring to but...
BE Sure to bookmark
http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=cfrm
and then explore each forum for the many topics....
And so I am reminded...
"A just cause needs no interpreting. It carries its own case. But the unjust argument, since it is sick, needs clever medicine."
Regards


It's always enjoyable to hear a physicist speak of Eastern Philosophy; The Tao of Physics, et al.
Thanks for sharing your balanced views on this, and the neat link.

http://speakingoffaith.publicradio.org/programs/heartsreason/unheardcuts.shtml
Speaking of "Multiple Paths" (opposing views).
Avoiding the name of the message (or label) and focus on the message (meaning ...dare I say, translation?).

...of "Universalities" (science and religion)
He comes close to saying that science is the first "world religion;" but acknowledges the backlash/dichotomizing perspectives come as a part of that.
"Science is as much Western, as the zero is Hindu."

& "Time" re: conversation with Paul Davies (Physicist, Astrobiologist)
...beyond time?
ever larger (and/or smaller) cycles of time; avoiding the origin problem. -my "translation."

...again, thanks for the new views. I especially liked your characterization of the spiritual/ dualistic vs. materialistic/ rational. Dualism does seem somehow inherently irrational, but I know nought of this.

...meanwhile....

I only hope Ben's movie doesn't provoke some over-reaction on the part of the scientific community; but rather an opportunity for both communities to increase the dialogue (with the 95% of reasonable people out there).

...or is it only 80%?

smile

p.s.
...and THANK YOU Ben Stein, for stimulating a wealth of wonderful, and educational, humour!

Biology classes around the US could engage more minds with the current You-Tube parodies, than through any other method.
IMHO
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
#25695 - 04/25/08 12:40 PM Re: Ben's Stein's Expelled: Promoting divisiveness [Re: samwik]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
AAAS Response to BS Expelled:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58UDTq3kaZM

Top



Newest Members
debbieevans, bkhj, jackk, Johnmattison, RacerGT
865 Registered Users
Sponsor
Facebook

We're on Facebook
Join Our Group

Science a GoGo's Home Page | Terms of Use | Privacy Policy | Contact Us
Features | News | Books | Physics | Space | Climate Change | Health | Technology | Natural World

Copyright © 1998 - 2016 Science a GoGo and its licensors. All rights reserved.