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Ellis #25278 04/02/08 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted By: previous page

Revl. "It seems to me that the bottom line is this: My role in life is to adopt an attitude of LOVE towards everyone and all things, and stop resisting what it is that G0D has in store for me."

Ellis: "Rev: it would be churlish to argue with that! However may I suggest you substitute LIFE for GOD- then I'll agree with you completely? "


"Whatever we call it, it is easy enough to translate into our own terms when we hear it." -#25258

Our culture and upbringing lead us to use different terminology for these grand concepts, but I think ultimately (with way too much analysis) we mean the same thing (though too often folks are loathe to admit it).

...or words to that effect.
smile

Last edited by samwik; 04/02/08 07:41 AM. Reason: add quoted

Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
.
Ellis #25285 04/02/08 09:09 PM
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Ellis, as I understand you, you like the ideas I expressed above. Thanks! However, what you have a problem with is the nomenclature I use.

May I suggest a compromise?: In your dialogue with me I have no problem with you using LIFE--and I will use it back to you.
However, when I dialogue with others--for example, theists and atheists--may I continue to use GØD?
I realize that it has become controversial. But. for me it is--like the Orthodox-Jewish term, G-d--a gender-free and non-anthropomorphic term. This why I use it in my signature.

Last edited by Revlgking; 04/02/08 09:14 PM.

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Sam- Whilst I agree with much that you say, the trouble with calling that which fills us with incomprehensible awe GOD, or any other name which seems to indicate a supernatural source, is that I do not recognise that the supernatural exists. It would be easy to say that we mean the same thing, but I do not think we do. I have no difficulty with living my life excluding the possibility that the divine, the supernatural or GOD exists. I agree that those grand concepts you speak of exist- indeed they often make life worthwhile- but I do not take the next step and attribute them to a god or other para-normal origin. I understand that others do--but I do not recognise the need to believe that 'the divine', in any form, guides our lives.

Last edited by Ellis; 04/03/08 06:11 AM. Reason: Grammar
Ellis #25291 04/03/08 07:20 PM
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Ellis, I have no problem thinking of GØD/LIFE as being quite super and very natural--not unlike the quantum and super computers being created by Seth Lloyd.

As I have already mentioned:For me, GØD=shortform, or way of saying "super quantum computer at our service. But it is up to us to make the connection and keep on doing so." I do it moment by moment--just like I do with my PC--even when I am going through a viral infection. I just rose above it, this AM.

THE UNIVERSE AS A SUPER AND QUANTUM COMPUTER
============================================
I have the strong feeling that Lloyd is on the right track: The universe is a super quantum computer with which we have the potential to connect (In Aramaic, the word for 'pray' means to connect.)I feel guided by everything I experience. And it is not a god separate and apart from nature.

THE LAW OF ATTRACTION
=====================
This approach helps anyone learn about and use the law of attraction. Specifically, the attraction of good things.

Did I mention the narrow escape my wife and I had in Florida? Pardon me if this is a repeat. Put it down to my age: I was making what I felt was a safe entrance into a line of traffic. Out of nowhere came a car, speeding. My wife yelled, "Look out for that car...or words to that effect..." All I know is, without any conscious thought on my part, the other driver and I did the right thing and a crash was avoided by less than 6 feet.

Coincidence? Maybe. But what I know is: The more connected I keep with GØD'LIFE, the more positive coincidences keep happening. smile
And it is free to anyone willing to make the choice to stay connected. Keep in mind that this process has nothing to with having to belong to a dogmatic, imposing and formal religion...........



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IS THE FOLLOWING ANOTHER "COINCIDENCE"?
=====================================
Out of the blue (or, was it from GØD?) I got the following communication. It is from a writer who describes himself as a quantum physicist:
http://www.believeandmanifest.net/1/bam/law-of-attraction-report.php
Whoever sent this, it sure ties in with what I have been studying and with how practical quantum physics can be in with demonstrating the law of attraction.


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Doesnt seem like a coincidence, seems more like a sales pitch about his new book. I only have one question about this entity which you called god. What makes you believe something like that exists? Is it only coincidences like these and that time you almost got into a car accident? I agree with a lot of the things like we should all live in peace with each other. But I fail to see how any of this ties into the type of God which exists everywhere. Care to explain what the connection between the two is?


- Kevat Shah
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KS, thanks for your interesting comments and questions. BTW, I have a great deal of respect for atheists who find it possible to be happy, moral, ethical and loving people under all circumstances.

It prompts me to ask: What is it that gives you the strength and moral courage to do it, seemingly, without any invisible means of support?

Keep in mind that GØD, in my humble opinion, is not "an" entity--a personal being separate and apart from all that IS-- It is my short form for all that IS. If you have another way of defining this, I am all ears.

You ask: "Care to explain what the connection between the two is?"

The two? The two what?

KS, before you answer, keep in mind that at my age, I am full of stories, which I often use to answer sincere questions.

Now, how do you respond to my questions?

Last edited by Revlgking; 04/03/08 10:16 PM.
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Rev wrote:

"I have a great deal of respect for atheists who find it possible to be happy, moral, ethical and loving people under all circumstances."

Oh come on Rev--ALL circumstances-- it would take Jesus Christ, Buddha, The Dalai Lama (possibly!) and Mother Theresa to be nice under ALL circumstances. And now I come to think of it Jesus had a bit of a temper tantrum in the Temple at the money changers.

Kevat-- I think the need to believe is summed up by Rev here----

"It prompts me to ask: What is it that gives you the strength and moral courage to do it, seemingly, without any invisible means of support?"

Many people seem to need to have a support on which they can depend as a reason or excuse for their moral behaviour. This was cruelly mocked by some comedian or other as "the devil made me do it"! Add a system that promises life after death in some form or other and it becomes very attractive to believe.

Ellis #25297 04/04/08 01:31 AM
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Rev - What gives me strength is the pursuit of truth. If we keep trying to find what is true, only then can we come up with the right answer. This leads me to question:
"What is the connection between the two"
What I mean by that was, what is the connection between these coincidences and an ever present god? How do these coincidences provide support for your idea of a God (which is simply all that is). It seems to me like you are saying that everything exists in a harmony (hence the universe being a quantum computer). How does this idea of everything in the universe being god relate to these coincidences? Are you saying that the universe, or some part of it made these coincidences happen to prove a point?

Ellis - What I meant by "What makes you believe..." is not why someone needs to believe in god, but why someone would believe in something they cannot see or hear.


- Kevat Shah
Ellis #25309 04/04/08 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted By: Ellis
This was cruelly mocked by some comedian or other as "the devil made me do it"!
You're thinking of the late Flip Wilson. Interestingly, we get our word 'devil' from the Greek, diabolos (hence, diabolic). It literally means that which splits us from the good (God), within ourselves, others and in the universe. The inner self is also the location of the so-called 'devil'--green (envy) and red (anger) variety smile

Speaking of the universe: As a unitheist, I experience the universe as being made of all kinds of qualities, which are both visible and invisible. Isn't much of the light spectrum "invisible" to the naked eye? But who would argue that it is of little consequence to us.

ARE WE HERE TO CONVERT OTHERS?
=============================
BTW, It not my desire to convert atheists--or for that matter anyone--and have them become unitheists?

My goal with any other human being is the same as it is with my son's wife, a Sufi Muslim--the mother of my only three wonderful
grandchildren. What I want--and am having with my family--is to have healthy relationship so that we can work together to make the world a place of prosperity, justice, joy and peace, for all people.

This is what we are making the basis of our weekly fellowship http://www.pathwayschurch.ca It is based entirely on the non-sectarian principle of the Golden Rule.

Last edited by Revlgking; 04/04/08 08:01 PM.
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Ref-- I think your theory has much to do with animism, in that animism suggests that the divine is in everything and we can see evidence for it in all of nature and natural forms/phenomena. Have you a comment?

Thanks for reminding me regarding the name of Flip Wilson. I just could not recall it (oh dear-another senior moment!)

Ellis #25323 04/05/08 05:38 PM
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Ellis, I have always been interested in how the divine force of faith--IMO, a non-sectarian quality--works in and through all that is.

Because, even as a student, of my interest in psychology, religion and healing, many of my early sermons (beginning in the 1950's--focussed on the teaching and healing ministry of Jesus. IMO, he was a psychotherapist--I prefer to use 'pneumatherapist'--long before the idea was invented.

In the winter of 1964--I was 34 that January--I was urged on, by a member of the church (Toronto east) I then served, to offer a series of lectures in which I could give more details about what I felt was the role of the spirit (pneuma) in helping to heal the mind (psyche) and the body (soma).

He told me: "I like the drift that you are taking in your morning sermons. So do a lot of my friends. If you will do a series of lectures on healing on a Sunday evening, I will helped get it organized. In the lecture series you will have the opportunity to go into more details about what you have in mind."

He did. And the series was a great success.

The lectures were based on the book, PRAYER CAN CHANGES YOUR LIFE (Prentice Hall, 1957) by the psychologist, Dr. William Parker with the help of Elaine St. Johns, writer.

Based on the story of how he recovered from his own serious illness, Dr. Parker--a WW 2 vet--tells the story of a real experiment carried out over a year. It involved three groups of 15 people each: One used traditional prayer; one used psychotherapy, and one used a combination, which he called "prayer therapy".

The results of the experiment demonstrated that the combined use of meditative prayer and psychology helped a lot more people get well a lot faster than either psychology or traditional prayer did on their own.
===================================
The first series of healing lectures, which I called PRAYER THERAPY attracted a large group of people. So did a second series, and a third, a forth, etc. I began using the non-sectarian title, PNEUMATOLOGY--the study of the human spirit.
Because there was a wide interest in the connection between faith, suggestion, hypnosis and the like the series attracted the interest of the all the media. There was even a front page story.
Naturally, there were attacks by the traditional religionists. This was good publicity for us.

PNEUMATOLOGY GREW
=================
When I moved to North Toronto (1966), so did the series. There, until I retired in 1994, it evolved, grew and gave rise to a number of weekly programs and experiments, including the Family Life Foundation http://www.flfcanada.com And, as they: the rest is history--and ongoing.



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Ellis, you and others may be interested in what I just wrote to a widely-read National Post columnist (Canada), Robert Fulford--a great communicator--the following communication:
=======================
Robert:

Thanks for your National Post article, today, on THINKING ABOUT FUNDAMENTALISM.

Interestingly, every Tuesday, over breakfast (7:00 AM), I meet for dialogue--it is not a debate--with a group of evangelical fundamentalists. Because we agree to disagree, agreeably, it is usually an enjoyable and lively experience. We usually discuss certain Bible passages and how they relate to what it going on in the media.

The leader, a fairly bright lawyer, is a friend of mine.

CHARLES TEMPLETON
=================
BTW, in your column you mentioned the late (2001) Charles Templeton. I first met him after he stopped being a well-known Christian evangelist and, eventually, wrote his book, Farewell To God, which I have and read.

I first met Charles in the early 1960's, in the presence of Allen Spraggett, then the religion editor of the Toronto Star, and himself a former evangelist. We became friends. Now in his seventies, he is retired and lives in Aurora. I think Charles was the editor of the Star at the time. We met at a social gathering at his home.

I remember him challenging me: Lindsay, like me, you will not remain part of the organized church, for long. You think too much.

Several times following this, I had encounters with Charles, including one on a TV talk show. Last going off, I had several phone conversations with him, which, with his permission, I recorded. They are still part of a collection I keep. He was amazed when I told him that I was still doing my stuff--thinking outside the box--and within the United Church.

AS OF 2008
==========
I now belong to a fellowship http://pathwayschurch.ca which I helped get started (2005) here in Markham. Interestingly, it is officially part of the UC of Canada and encourages thinking outside the box. Charles would be most welcome here and, I feel, comfortable in such an open and inclusive fellowship which encourages critical analysis and thinking. We are not required to check our brains before our sacred gatherings.

Questions I often ask, to any one of the disparate collection of fundamentalists I meet, are as follows: If God is one, which one of the several fundamentalist churches is His? Can there be more than one kind of fundamentalism?

BTW, how come God avoids being part of the Internet? One infallible website would be very convenient, don't you think? If God needs a base, I invite Him, any time He chooses, to become part of the Family Life page.

Robert, one final point: I call myself a unitheist. How aware are you of what I call unitheism? (panentheism) It is based on the ideas of Alfred North Whitehead--process philosophy and theology. For details check out the work of the Rev. Charles Hartshorne, who popularized Whitehead's work.

For the work of Whitehead, check out http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/whitehead/

Thanks for your most interesting writing,

Lindsay G. King
(905) 764-1125

Last edited by Revlgking; 04/05/08 09:41 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
....I remember him challenging me: Lindsay, like me, you will not remain part of the organized church, for long. You think too much.
Good one! LOL Thanks for sharing.

...some thoughts on this past week's posts.
Translating these terms such as God/Nature, or "God's Plan" & "Evolution," shouldn't focus on equating certain attributes of the juxtaposed definitions.

The Effect that each unique understanding has On a person (which each person creates from these different definitions) is what should be translated.

A definition's effect on a person is what should be acceptingly comprehended.

Some easily translated qualities that are fulfilled in a person by their varying definitions (of loosely, science/religion) are:
IMHO
providing comfort, joy, and exaltation; as well as refuge, solace, and resilience:
inspiring wonder, motivation, and responsibility:
endowing relevance, integrative understanding, and inspiration:
providing interpretative power, integrative explanations, and predictive power:
facilitating interaction, language and jargon, a sense of community, and support systems.


One may see another's definitions as insufficient, but that is often within one's own terms of relevance.
It often depends on the purposes for which one needs understanding in their life, that affects their choice of framework or worldview.

For instance, when we speak of the supernatural, it is only in reference to the extant of "natural" currently understood. To me, the "natural," material universe only composes about 5% of the known universe (other 95% is dark matter or energy); and that doesn't even address the higher dimensions from which our spacetime is derived.

I certainly don't know of anything persuasive, but I allow for possibilities that something "supernatural" may in fact be natural in the end.
It's a quantum, relativistic worldview, in which all possibilities exist; but depending on circumstances, certain possibilities decohere and (are translated to) become "real" enough for that time. (ala Seth Lloyd?)

I'm not advocating that we drop all standards of concordance between "personalized" definitions, but I don't think we should get hung up on the details of natural/supernatural, personal/impartial, animist/theist/deist, or if something is "all-pervasive," "within & through," "informed by,' or simply "all there is."

My purpose in trying to be accepting of other's definitions is to try and include these "anti-science" folks in the "scientific" efforts to rescue the biosphere here on Earth.
Many Evangelicals are now seeing stewardship as important. I just don't want to alienate them when they come asking for advice.
Being humble isn't just a good value for religious people. Scientifists would do the world a great service by avoiding, especially in unfamiliar circumstances, sounding self-righteous.

An experienced farmer may achieve better outcomes, using his 5 senses to evaluate the soil, than an experienced scientist could by using the best available technology. Don't alienate the farmers!
smile


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
samwik #25332 04/06/08 12:11 PM
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Sam, it seems to me what you are saying is this: We need to look on differences of race, language, culture and religion, whatever, not as divisive ones, but as enriching differences. IMO. if someone happens to speak a different language the opportunity is to find the best translation, not to use it as an excuse to develop a feeling of alienation.

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BTW, Sam, have you heard of the work of
http://www.conversationswithgod.org/

Currently, I am reading the book, Conversations With God, whiich was given to me by a friend.
Later, I will give my opinion.

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The basic thrust of the book, CwG--very unitheistic, BTW--is not a new idea to me.

I realize that writers need to be paid for their efforts, but I feel that this is an attempt by the writer to do what all leaders of religion do: They commercialize things. In return for cash, they offer to supply the need that some people have for some guru, or leader of a movement, to tell them ... Well, let us leave it there, for now.

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SUMMARY OF THE BOOK: Whether we realize it or not each of us is involved in--through the use of our feelings, (the language of the soul --having an on-going state of communication with God. In addition to our feelings, God also communicates with us through our thoughts and experiences

Atheists take note: You may call it what you will, but the author states that God is the essential self (the Spirit GOD) in each and all of us. Is there any denying the "essential self"?

HOW DO WE KNOW WHEN GOD IS COMMUNICATING?
God communicates and says, mine is always your Highest thoughts, your Clearest Words, your Grandest Feelings. Anything less is from another source. Listen for communications filled with feelings of joy, truth and love.

WHAT ABOUT PRAYER?
Is it okay to ask God to send you joy, truth and love. The best attitude is one of gratitude, of appreciation, not supplication, or begging. Never beg or supplicate. Appreciate. Stop resisting, get your ego out of the way and the things of joy, truth and love will come.

In the beginning, we human beings were the first and only things created by God. All else--that is, all others things--is the creation of our egos, which are dominated by the feeling of fear.
Keep in mind that every human action is based on either love or fear--all other ideas are but derivatives of these two.

COMPARING LOVE WITH FEAR:

Love expands, reveals, shares, heals and attracts the things loved. It is willing the best, under all circumstances. It is our experience of God. By the way, God is not a human-like being with a gender, but the ultimate reality, the all.

It is our soul purpose to remember that we can be loving. We are here to know this, experience this and to be loving. Being itself then becomes bliss.

Fear contracts, runs, hides, hoards, harms and attracts the things feared. It is the main cause of pain and suffering, including disease, all those dreadful wars and why the world is in the shape it is in.

Keep in mind: we have the power to choose loving, or fearing. (to page 33)

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Rev quoted:

Atheists take note: You may call it what you will, but the author states that God is the essential self (the Spirit GOD) in each and all of us. Is there any denying the "essential self"?

That is such a copout!!! Religious people do this all the time! Of course you can deny that the warm fuzzies ( or whatever is being discussed at the time as a defining aspect of the divine) are god. If they are in fact the "essential self", what's wrong with that? My essential self is me, myself and I and has nothing to do with god.

Similarly I acknowledge and am glad for the existence of love, but I do not then make the sweeping statement that experiencing love is experiencing god. It isn't- it's experiencing love, as fear is experiencing fear.

And you have not loved if sometimes that loving has not lead to unexpected pain and suffering.


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Thanks for the "fireworks" from your "essential self", Ellis.

You sound like the bird which was asked: Do you believe in air? "Air?" asked the bird, "What's air?" laugh

Ah, the communication of ideas is not all that easy. Let me assure you that I am not sure that I take all the ideas in the book, CwG, at face value. But I do agree with the general thrust of the book: The ultimate goal of the "all" is the Highest Good (Love) of all that is.

Last edited by Revlgking; 04/08/08 04:08 PM.
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