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I have just been re-reading Louis Moreli's posts. I have to say I agree with a lot of what he says.

I don't know if this is a fair summary of his views.

If there is a God, and if he/she is anything like the God of most(perhaps all)organised religions, he/she is a monster.

I think his comment "the creators of religions never wanted to be the employees." is a masterpiece.

Last edited by Bill S.; 09/10/11 01:48 PM.

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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
...If there is a God...
'a' God? No modern theologian that I know of, especially me, speaks of 'a' god as 'a' being with dimensions.
Quote:
anything like the God of most(perhaps all)organized religions, he/she is a monster.
Where is the evidence for what you speak? Sure there are human hypocrites in all fields. I think of the scientists and technologists who designed and put in the hands of the military weapons of mass destruction and the like, but does this make all scientists monsters?

If there is a god who is a an all-powerful and monster-like god, how come he puts up with those who reject him/her?
Quote:
I think his comment "the creators of religions never wanted to be the employees." is a masterpiece.
Masterpiece? It is a mean-spirited generalization. Again I ask: How much do those who make such broad generalizations really know about the saints, of all religions, who gave, and continue to give, their lives to make the world a better place?

http://www.heroesforhumanity.com/myhero/home.php?h645tfgd=H_cds
==================
BTW, For two years at Boston University (Founded by Methodists) I studied the life and work of John Wesley--an Anglican minister and founder of Methodism.

There is ample evidence that, inspired by his mother, this great man, the Rev. John Wesley and his followers saved England from having to endure a French style of revolution. For example, his mission inspired the idea of public education, health, democracy and, despite certain verses in the Bible, the freeing of slaves. Money he earned for his writings was used in the service of others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wesley
=========================
BTW, can anyone point me to a site where the heroes and heroines are cynical, bitter, hypocritical and sarcastic people who believe in and serve nothing, not even themselves.

Last edited by Revlgking; 09/11/11 04:42 AM. Reason: Always a good idea!

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The sun has been shining today, so all the outdoor jobs that called in vain for attention in yesterday’s rain were the more insistent. Of course, they didn’t all get done, but a certain tiredness and feeling of satisfaction bespeaks a degree of success that yesterday didn’t promise. As predicted, Hurricane Katia reached us this evening. Naturally it was not a hurricane by the time it arrived. The wind got up – a little – for about 20 minutes and a few dark clouds passed over. I bet people who live in the path of hurricanes wish that’s all the amounted to.

Rev, we seem to have crossed wires! It’s not hard to be at cross purposes with others when dear-held beliefs are involved, but there's no excuse for leaving them crossed. It calls to mind a delightful quote from Henry Williamson, describing a defensive otter: “Er riz up all yinny-yicker!” The more mischievous side of my nature is sometimes tempted to prod people to see where their yinny-yicker reaction cuts in, but I usually resist the temptation; perhaps because I recall my mother’s yinny-yicker reaction, which was certainly better left un prodded.

First, I should say that I was trying to summarize what I understood Louis to be saying; which is different from trying to summarize what he might actually have been saying.

Quote:
No modern theologian that I know of, especially me, speaks of 'a' god as 'a' being with dimensions


Let’s take this with the later comment:

Quote:
If there is a god who is a an all-powerful and monster-like god, how come he puts up with those who reject him/her?


I interpreted Louis’s comments as saying: If there is a god, and that god is a monster, we might expect to see his/her actions in terms of unmistakable smiting of those who displeased her/him. Since this is not the pattern we see, it is reasonable to argue that there is no such god. Thus far, I think I am more or less in line with modern theologians.

Quote:
Masterpiece? It is a mean-spirited generalization. Again I ask: How much do those who make such broad generalizations really know about the saints, of all religions, who gave, and continue to give, their lives to make the world a better place?


As you rightly point out “there are human hypocrites in all fields”; there are probably also good and selfless people in all fields; but drawing generalizations about wider contexts from these facts is often not helpful. If Louis was referring to (for example) Christ, Muhammad or the Buddha, I would not agree with his comment, but looking at the harm done in the name of major religions, and the lifestyles of many religious leaders gives one pause for thought.

As far as John Wesley is concerned; I grew up in “John Wesley country”, I have a great respect for him and his work. I have also experienced some of the bigotry and even hatred perpetrated by some of those who are proud to have his name above their chapel doors. I believe such attitudes and actions would distress him greatly. I also think that that is not what Louis was talking about.


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Originally Posted By: Rev
In my opinion, agape-love (the Greek is agape) is a very special kind of love. Anyone: What is its special meaning?

I've just realised I missed this question, and as no-one else has answered it; here goes:

Originally, agape was probably used in much the same was that the Romans came to use diligere for the kind of love that involved a conscious choice, rather than the emotional type that did not arise from choice.

However, I believe the early Christians used it as "love feast", which later became "communion".

Last edited by Bill S.; 09/11/11 09:27 PM.

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Yes, I agree. Agape--the ability to ability to consciously give good will and respect--is a very valuable quality. However, as I understand it, agape is not there to put a damper on and spoil genuine feelings of friendship and passion, but to serve as a guide so that such feelings, especially in the family and community, become genuine and lasting.
You mentioned the weather, in Essex. How far are you from London. Since I returned from Vancouver Island, the weather in Toronto has been excellent.

Did you hear that the west coast of Vancouver Island--where I was a week ago--had earthquake tremors, yesterday? My daughter, who lives there in a home that floats, made her usual Sunday-call a couple of hours ago. She said that while tremors were felt on land, in Tofino, there was no sign of them in their cove.

Last edited by Revlgking; 09/12/11 03:26 AM.

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We're about 70 miles East of London, just about as far as you can go without being in the North Sea. Close enough to London for my liking.

I didn't hear about the tremors. Glad they didn't hit your daughter's home. We enjoyed the video of that, felt quite envious. OK, don't tell me; envy is a sin. smile


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BillS--For short, may I call you, BS? smile Envy, a sin? Not necessarily!

THE NATURE OF SIN
Like most things in life, envy, is only a sin if it is deliberately carried too far. IMO, religion carried too far becomes a sin. Many people are so heavenly-minded that they are no earthly good.

RELIGION CARRIED TOO FAR
IMO, any religion which claims to be the one and only and True Religion and thinks, speaks and act on the basis that all other religions are false is, IMO, one that has gone too far.

UNITHEISM--A THEOLOGY FOR ME, NOW
As a unitheist, of course there are things--physically, mentally and spiritually--which I believe in, value and hold dear.

But I like to think of myself as having an evolving philosophy of faith and religion--one that does not insist that I have and hold to a fixed-position, for all time, on all topics that life has to offer. As a unitheist I welcome the sincere and probing-kind of questions asked by people, including myself, with scientific minds.

SOMATOLOGY, PSYCHOLOGY AND PNEUMATOLOGY
I agree that I have a somatolgical (physical) body and a psychological (mental) mind. However, I also think of myself as a pneumatological (spiritual) being--that is, I have the ability to affirm:

FOR ME, AFFIRMATIONS WORK BETTER THAN PETITIONS. HERE IS ONE I USE. Using it, I find no need to plead with a reluctant and non-existent idol some call god.
I am, therefore, I think and I affirm that I have the conscious power to choose to be who I am, to know what I need to know, and to do that which I can do to generate goodness, organize opportunities and deliver that which is desirable and needed to me, to others and to the world in which we all live.

For some time now, while viewing the primary colours--blue (green) yellowxxxxx and red (more on this, later)--I have been using a version of the above affirmation, regularly. I use it before I go to sleep at night, on arising in the morning, and any time, I feel the need, during the waking hours.

Quote:
OFFENDED, ANYONE?
I (LGKing) ask out of curiosity: Is there anyone, including any self-aware atheist/agnostic, who finds anything offensive in the above affirmation. There is all kinds of evidence that it helps increase the odds that good things will happen. Let me know if it works for you as it has for me.

Last edited by Revlgking; 09/12/11 05:29 PM. Reason: Always a good idea!

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Originally Posted By: Rev
Many people are so heavenly-minded that they are no earthly good.


I like that! I hope you don't mind if I borrow it at some time.

I have no objection to your calling me BS. I hope you don't mind that I refer to you as Rev. I suppose that on a scientific forum that could be taken to imply that I think you are spinning, but I assure you no such implication is intended.


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Originally Posted By: Ellis
Diolch yn fawr iawn for the memory Bill!


Croeso i'r gofion, Ellis.


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... Rev. I suppose that on a scientific forum that could be taken to imply that I think you are spinning...
Comes the revolution, I just do not want to be revolving too fast!!!


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Rev, this is probably somewhere in one or more of the threads, but time doesn’t permit the necessary searching, so I shall just ask.

Is there a generally accepted idea among Unitheists regarding any kind of “afterlife”?


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Returning to the subject of the Welsh for God; no one has pointed out that Mae Duw cariad was a little pedantic. A more colloquial form would be Duw, cariad yw.

More interestingly, though, the Welsh also refer to God as Y Bod Mawr, which translates as The Great Being, or The Great Existence. This seems to fit well with the idea of God not being "a" God.


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
... Is there a generally accepted idea among Unitheists regarding any kind of “afterlife”?...
Without making it a dogma, I just happen to think that there is no god who decides for us. It is up to us as individuals to make life what it is and what it will be--a hell, or a heaven.

IMO, there is no "after"; there is only a continuation of the "now"--good, bad, boring, ugly whatever.

IMO, we are making life to be what it is and will be. I feel We will reap what we sow--karma. St. Paul taught the idea of karma.

If I had the money, I would spend a lot of it exploring what happens to us when our bodies stop functioning, which they will.

WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO PNEUMATOLOGY
We need a balanced approach to somatology, psychology and pneumatology.

Last edited by Revlgking; 09/14/11 05:17 AM. Reason: Always a good idea!

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Quote:
IMO, there is no "after"; there is only a continuation of the "now"


Quote:
....what happens to us when our bodies stop functioning, which they will.


I think that is what is generally considered to be "after".


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BS, have you heard of the life and work of Dr.(psychology)The Rev. Leslie D. Weatherhead? For years he was the minister at City Temple, in London. He wrote some great books: His great book, Psychology, Religion and Healing (1950) influenced my style of ministry.

One of the pioneers of holistic healing, he experimented with hypnosis and set up a clinic within his church where doctors, psychologists and clergy worked in cooperation with one another.

One of his famous booklets is about:
THE CASE FOR REINCARNATION.
WEATHERHEAD, LESLIE D.
England: 1963.
Check out his story at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_Weatherhead
=========================


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Revlgking you are the first religious commentator on forums I actually have time for, you are not closed minded like most we see and actually have some useful contributions.

The index that I think alot more people should pay attention is HPI (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Planet_Index).

The thing that always makes me laugh is how low the more developed countries rate and infact on recent studies slum dwellers in India report higher levels of happiness than citizens in USA ... pause to reflect :-)

For you rev you may enjoy the the creationist website http://www.commonsensescience.org which sort of laymans down alot of the science stuff and seems to try and embody mainstream current science into religion. The science behind the website is created by David Bergman (http://creationwiki.org/David_Bergman).

Last edited by Orac; 09/15/11 06:48 AM.

I believe in "Evil, Bad, Ungodly fantasy science and maths", so I am undoubtedly wrong to you.
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Originally Posted By: Orac
Revlgking you are the first religious commentator on forums I actually have time for, you are not closed minded like most we see and actually have some useful contributions...."
Well, Orac! What a nice thing to say, thanks!
I checked out the sites you mentioned, and will check them further. Very Interesting!

FLFCanada.com and the philosophy of unitheism, on which it is grounded, is a totally democratic and non-sectarian approach to life.

Beginning with individuals and their families, it about helping people the world over come to full and conscious awareness of who we really are, and why we are really here.

TO BE HUMANE, OR INHUMANE--the choice is, and always will be, up to us...

My goal? It is to continue the process I began in my teens, when, after a year of what I now call META-tation--I made the conscious choice to become as fully aware as it is humanly possible--to be a fully aware and humane being. And there is more to be done, yet.

Now, as an octogenarian, I choose, to the best of my ability, to continue the process, if possible--ad infinitum.

In my opinion, we are here to become, more and more, like truly humane beings--to ourselves and others. Personally speaking, I am only responsible for myself. Others are free to make the same choice, which is: To be humane, or inhumane...

Last edited by Revlgking; 09/15/11 06:31 PM. Reason: Always a good idea!

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Originally Posted By: Rev
One of his famous booklets is about:
THE CASE FOR REINCARNATION.


Where do you stand on reincarnation?


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Originally Posted By: Bill S.
Originally Posted By: Rev
One of his (The Rev and doctor of psychology, Lester D. Weatherhead) famous booklets is about:
THE CASE FOR REINCARNATION.
Where do you stand on reincarnation?
Me? I stand with people like, Winston Churchill, the famous politician, and even a great statesman--famous for, more than once, crossing the floor as a member of the British Parliament.

You may remember that, when he was once asked: "Are you a Conservative (right wing)? Or a Liberal left wing)?"

He responded--probably with tongue-in-cheek and a grin on his face: "On most great issues, I stand in the EXTREMEcentre!" laugh

I VISUALIZE THAT PNEUMATOL0GY WILL BECOME A SCIENCE
When it comes to important, and yet un-proved, pneumatological questions, like: Is there any kind of life beyond the death of this body? I take an optimistic stand. The idea is too good, not to be true!

THE EXTREME CENTRE (EC)
Seriously, I think of the E-C as being a very important and valuable place to be, most of the time. This choice is not a cop out.

I like to think of the E-C as the same as the NOW. For me, the Now began when I became aware that I was aware. I suspect the same is also true for all people who enjoy exploring challenging ideas.

Whether we know it or not, we all live move and have our being in the NOW. From this point we see more of the NOW there is to see.

Also, from this point there are several sciences which we can use to look back, better explore the past and even design, not waste time predicting, the kind of future we would like to have. This may seem like a bold and arrogant statement, but here it is: The present I now enjoy is the future I used to visualize, imagine and dream about.

THE POLITICALLY ECONOMY
Politically and economically speaking, as I have written elsewhere, the EC is more of a feathers-like approach than a wings one.

Feathers, which cover the whole bird--not just the wings--have an extremely important role to play in the well-being of the whole bird. Powerful wings are of no use without feathers, especially tail feathers.

THE EARTH AS A SPACESHIP-- or, more romantically, a bird

I like to think of Mother Earth (ME) as a great bird flying through time and space. Once--and nobody knows when it came into being--Mother Earth was simply a flaming ball of inorganic matter.

Then, as the Bible puts it: "In the fullness of time"--that is, many, many light-years ago--out of a primordial mineral soup, there came into being what I now think of as the feathers of life, in all its forms. One of its forms happens to be us as more or less conscious human beings.

If I have any choice in the matter, it this: I choose to be a conscious part of the process. And you?


Last edited by Revlgking; 09/16/11 08:40 PM. Reason: Always a good idea!

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Is there a difference between being in the extreme centre and sitting on the fence?

Quote:
"In the fullness of time"--that is, many, many light-years ago--


Yes, I spotted the deliberate mistake. smile


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