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Quote:
WF asks:Revlgking, I would be interested to know what you opinion of communism is ??
WF, if you mean autocratic communism; I have the same opinion of it as I have of autocratic capitalism. I am not a fan of left wing ism any more than I am of right wing ism.

Think of a bird with only one strong wing. It doesn't matter whether the wing is left, or right; you end up with a very unhappy bird. Maybe this is how birds, such as the ostrich, evolved.


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Monetizing means giving a dollar value to commodities, goods and services--things with intrinsic value.

Keep in mind that Fiat money, the kind created by the central banks, has no intrinsic value. It can be created virtually out of thin air--a kind of legalized fraud. BTW, except for actual gold and silver coins, how much value does our regular coinage actually have? I suspect it is very little.

The purpose of the electronic tradeBUX is just to keep track of the trades.

This debt-based system, invariably, is the basic cause of our economic-bubbles which go BANG!!!! leaving all of us with inflation and many people with soul-destroying debts. I believe it is also the cause of unnecessary wars, causing huge national debts which benefits only the money lenders.

Let us not forget Eisenhower's warning:
Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html
"Beware of the power of the military-industrial complex..."

The UniversalBarterGroup (UBG) is about democratic capitalism. It seeks to work with all moral and ethical forms of business, including banks and the national currency system. It is complementary to, not contrary. We want the poor to have meaningful employment and the opportunity to create wealth, not take it away from others who have created it. It is not about how we divide the pie; it is about making more pies. Read Matt. 25--the parable of the talents.

Ellis, you say that barter, "is not a new system." Of course it isn't. But the PC has added a new dimension as to what can be done. Using it we could set up what I call THE 4U UNION.

This union could include every class: the unemployed, the under employed, the under paid, and the unhappy (this could include the rich). Our motto could we: JOIN 4U--WE ARE FOR YOU. The goal would be to create meaningful employment for all who need it.


smile

On my new Kindle, I've uploaded Mind of the Market by Michael Shermer.
I saw him on BookTV at a CATO Inst. talk (wow, was that fun to watch -the lamb in the lion's den, so to speak), and couldn't resist.
Also look up (google) Michael H. Shuman (Smallmart) & (Local Stock Exchanges!).
He says all those local currency conferences are stocked with poor, 70 year olds. Is this true?

Currently I'm still working on my first purchase, an E. O. Wilson book, along the lines of his The Creation.

Kindle allows me to browse ScienceAGoGo also!

I even logged in twice; and seemed to reply, but couldn't post (?).
But I can browse the fora! Anytime, anywhere; and surf, read more, highlight, and browse for more books.

Wisdom of Crowds, anyone?

But BOT
Check out those 2 Michaels, above, via google.

An economic "solution" must be part of an overall solution to biological and social equity (climate change and poverty/war).

smile



Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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...and of the two Michaels....

Michael Shuman talked about avoiding the "attraction & retention" programs in favor of fostering local development. Avoiding a sales tax "arms race" with neighboring communities, changing tax policies to be more "green," and keeping tax credits local were favored strategies (I think). He also mentioned examining money flow for various RFP's -proposals, and other development strategies (w/ goal of keeping money local and recirculating), in what he referred to as a "leakage analysis." Local business alliances and incubators were also mentioned as a positive step towards sustainable development.

Interestingly, with many areas (fisheries, forestry, farming) of sustainable development, it is local control that leads to the best outcomes.
What a surprise, eh?

I liked his point about how in the long run, what is best for the planet is the cheapest.
...um....
It's not sagacious to be rapacious.

That reminded me of Michael Shermer's observation that throughout much of the Paleolithic worldtime, economics was a zero-sum game.

I liked his favorable comparisons between Evolution and "Free-Enterprise."

I wonder if now, in this Consumpti-synthic age, with our niche filled, economics needs to be again considered as a zero-sum game (globally).

Someday it won't be the Gold Standard, but the Carbon Standard (oil, soil, biomass), or even maybe a Water Standard, that will determine value. That'd sure redistribute wealth and opportunity around the globe.
[now on Sam's Kindle: Storing Carbon in Agricultural Soils: A Multi-Purpose Environmental Strategy]
...I knew I was right about this...(and this is 10 years old!).


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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Personally, I don't see the problem with a fiat currency. Granted the potential for abuse is there, but hard currency can be just as easily manipulated. Seeing that we lost control of most of our gold reserve, if we did go back to a gold-backed dollar the value of that dollar would be vulnerable to manipulation by foreign powers. I'd rather take my chances getting swindled by a country I can 'reach out and touch' if I have to.

But I do agree that the entire debt based system of issuing currency via fractional reserve lending is folly, and is, in my opinion, the biggest problem we face in the US right now, bar none.

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Nothing has changed. Inflation is now, at this moment, running at 100,000 % in Zimbabwe. I started wondering what it would be like to have inflation so high that every dollar I own would be worth 100,000 more than that of the unfortunate citizens of Zimbabwe. Would money cease to have meaning then? It would have to I think.

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In the long-running thread--well over 100,000 clicks--about the philosophy of all religions, Amaranth asked me about the latest news from the Family Life Foundation--flfcanada.com--regarding BarterWold.com
========================
I sent her the following links http://www.barterworld.com
and http://www.universalbartergroup.com

==========================
She responded: "Interesting to see how bartering is becoming the upscale thing."

Amaranth asked me: "Have you ever heard of time-dollars?

http://www.timebanks.org/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-based_currency

http://www.transaction.net/money/timedollars/

"This last one links to Toronto dollars. I have not followed that link, but I know a little about Toronto Dollars, and it sounds like an interesting proposition."
===========================

I responded: "Yes. Since the late 1960's I have been writing about and promoting what I now call CCC--complementary and community currency."

It was after that that I became aware of the Guernsey Island experiment in 1816. Does anyone know how many other such experiments there have been? Until the British conquest in 1769, the French in Canada used playing cards and the New England colonies used colonial script. Check out: http://www.micheloud.com/FXM/MH/canada.htm
http://www.kamron.com/Liberty/colonial_script.htm

By the way, long before the invention of paper money ( Perhaps the Chinese were the first to invent the idea.), all forms of currency were initially local, and in kind. Here are just a few examples of the kind of things used: animals, animal skins, grains, metals (especially iron, bronze, silver and gold), tobacco, oils, alcohol, shells, salt, spices, whatever--things that were accepted, locally, as having a common value. What we call fiat money is a relatively modern invention. The latest invention is the use of computer blips. Does anyone know who were the first to come up with the idea of a currency based on monitized barter.

"What I am advocating can also be called creative community capitalism (CCC). It is meant to work in cooperation with governments and our chartered banking system and paying all legal taxes. It is not in any way an underground economy.

IMO, this is the best way to solve the problems caused by our current and debt-based and inefficient disaster-capitalism system which has destroyed the happiness of so many people who dreamed of owning their homes. It could also be a way of helping those who lose their homes in natural disasters not covered by insurance.

"In addition to the above, check our the work of Toronto author, Naomi Klein.
http://www.naomiklein.org/shock-doctrine

"THIS IS POWERFUL STUFF:
========================
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka3Pb_StJn4
Check out her dialogue with Milton Friedman.
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ka3Pb_StJn4
=============================================
"At the above I found quite a numbers of audio and visual quotes on economics. For example, Milton Friedman presents his case for what he calls the "free" market. He also uses the term, "competitive capitalism".

"BTW, in his comments he admitted that capitalism is not a "sufficient" cause of democracy. "But" he says, "capitalism is a necessary part of any democracy." Friedman, a strong advocate of monetarism admitted that both communism and national socialism used a form of capitalism.

"MONETARISM--A definition
========================
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client...nition&ct=title
Monetarism, a right wing approach, tends to say: Leave the economy to the market place and things will right themselves.

"KEYNESIANISM--offers a left wing approach.
============
http://www.history-ontheweb.co.uk/concepts/keynesianism51.htm
The key propositions of Keynesianism?--named after John Maynard Keynes: Here is an example:

1 of 6: There is no natural tendency for capitalist market economies, which now dominate world economies, to correct economic shocks and maintain an equilibrium at full employment. Before Keynes it was well known that there was a regular pattern of boom and slump but it was assumed that economies quickly righted themselves without government intervention. Keynes denied this.

"MY PERSONAL APPROACH?: As I have indicated elsewhere, as an intuitive economist, I take what I call "a feathers approach" to the political economy, not just a left wing or right wing one. After all, feathers are essential to the welfare of the whole bird.

"And don't forget the essential tail feathers. Without them, wings--indeed the whole bird--could not function. Without tail feathers flight is impossible no matter how strong the wings happen to be. They balance the wings and enable birds keep on course in those long migratory flight in search of food.

"Take note that tail feathers are, humbly, located right over the anus--another essential part of the bird.

"COOPERATIVE AND COMMUNITY CAPITALISM
====================================
"Perhaps this is the essential function of democratic forms of government: Be humble tail feathers and promote a democratic form of capitalism, what I call cooperative and community capitalism (CCC).

"This helps keep the wings in a state of balance and thus help the head (made up of all social leaders, including educators, spiritual leaders, business leaders, whoever) do that which is needed by the body of the whole bird, including the smallest feathers (our precious youth)."

Last edited by Revlgking; 03/22/08 07:55 PM.
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FAMILY LIFE FOUNDATION HAS A CONCRETE PLAN
==========================================
Yesterday, Tuesday, April 15, I attended a breakfast meeting, sponsored by http://www.BarterWorld.com
They have some very posh space at 19 Allstate Parkway--the corner of 404 and 7, Markham, Ontario.

After the breakfast, Michael--the accounts manager--spent an hour with us explaining how the system works.

By the way, the newest member of the FLF board is Gary Costelec. He is an employee with BW.

Now part of BarterWorld.com
The FLF is now one of the registered charities
with www.universalbartergroup.com

Recently, in our account, we received $48,000 worth of tradeBux--a kind of usury-free currency. We a plan to spend some of this getting a sound system for www.pathwayschurch.ca

BARTER is trading what you HAVE for what you NEED. Helping Charities acquire goods and services to accomplish their goals and help those in need both at home and abroad.

Last edited by Revlgking; 04/16/08 05:10 PM.

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Here in the US there are several reasons why we are in a recession. One of them is the NAFTA treaty signed into law by Bill Clinton and I may add approved by both houses before he signed it. In the county where I live we lost 5 sewing plants. The larger one at is's apex employed about 650 people. These people were given prolonged unemployment benefits and money for re-education at the local community college.

Now, before I go further let me give another dimension to NAFTA and relocation of industry before I go to their throat. We have been plagued here in the US by unions since early in the 20 century. In the beginning unions were a noble cause(although the heirarchy were questionable figures) but they were formed because of a need. Working conditions were bad, wages were terrible, children were worked like slaves, there were no benefits-all the makings to encourage change. The unions grew stronger and stronger and in time outgrew their purpose. Higher wages pushed up the prices of things such as automobiles and other necessities. For example, in about 1970 the auto workers were making about $16.00 per hour give or take a few bucks with some benefits, while in the South where I live about $4.00 per hour was the norm for manual labor. Textile plants moved to the South because the labor was cheaper with no unions. You might say in the 60's and 70's the Southern US was the "Mexico" of the day. So, to make it short you have the first ingredient "unions".

Then, came government regulations, further making it hard for idustry and corportations to do business. Hold on I am no advocate of large business hear me out. You have OSHA, and the EPA knocking on your door making life and doing business miserable, not to mention taxation. What would you do if you owned a factory and it cost you $8.00 to make a t-shirt when you can move to Mexico or China and make it for $2.00 and sell it for the same price? And these figures aren't exact I'm saying it cost much less off shore than here. How do you compete with an economy that the per capita income is $12000.00 per year when it is around 4 times that here and in other Western countries?

Then, to make things worse, the local banks tighen up on the money supply in these areas that were hit hard by plant closings.In the US small business is the largest employer. It is about 75% of the emloyers. So the banks quit lending money locally, because as one banker at a large East Coast Bank told me, why should we make 4000 loans here in this county when we can make 1 10,000,000 loan in a larger metropolitan area to say a developer and eliminate people and work? The answer is simple,
if you had 10,000,000 to invest would you put it all in one stock? Of course you wouldn't if that one investment went bad you have had a bad day. And the other side of the coin is this, people in these areas that put money on deposit are getting a mere 2.5 or 2.8 % return on their money with the bankers making loans in other areas and letting the rural areas dry up. In the mean time small business is having it rear rough, laying people off or closing completely, the credit ratings of the people in those areas gets real low thus making things worse for doing business in the area because of low beacon scores (which is another story)and creates a vicious cycle of despair. Meantime, all the high rollers and big spenders are having a party paying theirself too much money and creating a "service economy" and folks a service economy never served anyone but the folks at the top. Real
estate went crazy here especially at the beachs and the bankers greedily finaced the developers thus pushing up the prices and the bubble has burst. Now, they wish they had mad more loans to more people and diversified the investments.

I could write you a book. This is just part of it. Rome tried a service economy, it didn't work for them either, the same principles apply today that applied then. Also, too many entitlements-too many people are eating out of the Federal trough. In the county I live in $6,000,000 per year is budged for a county of 52000 people for medicade. If you could sum it up nice and tidy here it is:
Greedy people
Too Much Government
Hope this has enlightend someone.
odin1

Too Much Government
Greedy People


People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1


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G'day,

Rome when? They had a perfectly workable service economy for hundreds of years. It was bult on the back of slavery so it wasn't equitable or fair but it certainly worked. A prostitute cost around $0.50. $2.00 if he or she was actually pretty good. Food and cloth was cheap enough that as long as you held some form of employment you had food and clothing. Accommodation was another thing altogether. They had shortages but you coped.

Medical Services. Pretty much all of Europe and a great deal of other companies have universal "fully paid" medical systems. This includes New Zealand, Australia. With some exceptions it actually works.

These so called welfare states manage to look after the poor and sick and unfortunate a hell of a lot better than the US and without it destroying their economies to do it. Indeed, many countries actually have surpluses in their economies.

Manufacturing is not the reason that countries go broke. China is currently the manufucterer for everyone. I can buy products in that country, ship them to mine, unload them etc, at ONE TENTH of what they would cost for me to make here. Funny thing is that the factories I deal with have had to increase wages over and over in the last five years from 200 yuan, to 400 yuan, to 600 yuan and now all the way up to 1200 yuan a month. Now this isn't much money but the jump is. But funnily enough I knew our prices would not go up for a very long time because of the slack in the Chinese economy. They did things inefficiently when it was so cheap, hiring an efficiency expert was more expense than just being ineficient. Then machines started to come in. That also improved quality control, as did the insistance of importers such as me for quality control inspectors, refunds on defective goods below very low levels and refusing to buy further products from those factories that failed to provide adequate quality.

This type of movement of manufacturing has been occuring for a couple of centuries now.

The US is in a recession and is a ticking time bomb financially because of factors you didn't mention at all but are extremely important. Your Government never met a pork barrel it could not stuff fuller than it was previously. Your Government runs on money, rivers of it, to elect even lowly Judges. A contested campaign for a Judge, who will earn maybe $120,000 per year is more than $1 million. What moron every thought electing a judge, a DA, a Sheriff, a coroner, dog catcher, etc, etc, was a good idea just took the idea of democracy and thought they would see if they could destroy it completely.

Now look at the money old Obama and Hillary and chewing up. All for a job that pays $500,000. Oh I realise that is what Bill now gets just to make a speach but there is always the chance after all that effort you die or get killed in office. Not a good investment if you ask me.

So every State and Federal elected representative needs to due a great deal of really really stupid things with the people's money to get re-elected.

Could you imagine a method where electoral donations are banned and the candidates are given funds in which to campaign with? This actually happens in many countries. Sounds a bit fairer than Enron donating millions to several politicians doesn't it?

Then you have a military that costs such an enormous amount yet it gives a terrible return for its investment. Instead of making planes that cost $3 billion each, just do what they have done with the B52s and keep fixing them. And even then look at what you want your military for and then pay them enough to actually be proud to be serving for their country. A country that pays their soldiers so poorly that they are eligible for State Welfare automatically, and who comes home from Iraq to find their car repossessed because their loved one had a choice between being late with the payments or feeding the kids because the food got more expensive real quick.

But the biggest doozy of them all! A lot of people don't know this but the US was a terrible investment for most of its existence and is now even worse. It had to borrow a great deal to fight the British and owed debts traditionally in very large amounts until the blessing of WWI came along. Now they wouldn't fight in it because that would mean were really a part of the world but they certainly took all sides' money. It is said that Mr Maxim, the US inventor of self reloading machine gun, was paid around $9 for every single soldier killed in the First World War because the guns were built under licence in Germany, Austria, Britain, France etc.

So for a while the US was out of debt and they even actually entered the war eventually when it was nearly over anyway. The Germans managed to lose because eating frozen turnips just does not keep one healthy and if you do that three years in a row and the supplies of food for the front just dry up then soldiers start to starve and, no more war. The US helped, a little bit, but it was the effectiveness of the British in blockading the Germans more than anything that lost Germany that war.

Because WWI didn't settle anything there was further unrest but the US was a powerhouse of business. Certainly they were huge manufacturers but it wasn't just that that made the US rich. It was the fact that even if something was manufactured in Japan or Mexico the investments was US and the profits flowed by to the US. The US didn't owe the world money. The world owed the US so much, had WWII not come along the US probably would have ended up technically owning almost the whole planet.

The US again didn't actually want to fight, despite the appalling harm the Japanese were doing in China and had been doing for years. It took years before they even decided that they would restrict oil to Japan for such little things as the rape of Nanking where hundreds of thousands of civilians were raped and about two million were murdered. And of course they didn't have to fit in Europe because they didn't have any treaties forcing them to do so, regardless of the devistation the Nazis caused to Poland, as did the USSR to the other half of the country. But once again they were happy to make money out of it. In this case very very large amounts of money.

After the ware there was an economic boom that looked like it would go for ever. The painful adjustment from agrarian enterprises to city enterprises were almost completely missed by the US (the Depression being but a small fraction of what could have actually gone wrong before it had sorted itself out properly).

But somewhere the US forgot that you cannot simply print money if you run out nor can you borrow money from others if you have no means to pay it back. But since the whole world was stuck with the US as its engine, a legacy of WWI and WWII, it didn't matter. The common currency of the world was the US dollar and it didn't matter how astronomical the amounts became or who ridiculous the deficits they just piled up.

It might have been worth going into debt temporarily to crush communism but then the payoff should have been a massive reduction in defence costs but this never happened.

Defence spending is part of a "service" economy as far as I am concerned. It does not produce consumer products or industrial products and its only use, if you do not use Armies like Rome of old to conquer and then collect taxes, is to throw your weight around or to create military equipment that, aside from exercises actually never gets used.

Service economies can and do exist where the country remains economically healthy. Service economies can be based on Tourism or banking or computer services or all manner of things that are not directly goods. You are still producing something. It just isn't something that fits in a box.

Land prices are a big problem in any modern economy and no one has yet to come up with a reasonable solution. You want your citizens to be secure in their old age so they won't spunge on the welfare system so you want them to have a house but if you encourage them to by one when they are young the prices go up and ironically they become too expensive to afford by all but the affluent. It is clear that all over the world residential property prices are too high. In some cases the amounts are around 50% or 70% over what they should be worth as shelter for people with the amenities supplied near them.

I'm not sure anyone has a solution to this one. Hong Kong certainly does not show a good example. Singapore's model isn't all that terrific and Russia's just plain sucks.

But housing busts are cyclical. It is the problem when there are many other fundamentals of an economy that are not very good that you end up with terrible consequencies. Problems such as national debt that just cannot be paid and if even 10% of those owing the debt decided to put the money somewhere else the US would have to declare bankruptcy are the sort of things that, if I was a part of the system that created, the current woes, would keep me awake every night.

This is all just my two cents worth written late at night because I cannot sleep at all.

I do not hate the US in any way and have a great deal of time for its citizens and great respect for its Armed Forces, so please no one think this was just someone bashing the US. But its amazing how clearly others can see what's wrong with the US when the US has no idea. It would also amaze most citizens of the US how much the average person in other countries knows about the US compared to the almost total vacuum of knowledge the other way.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that banning ALL guns except those absolutely necessary and them making them be in a gun safe and the owner licenced would stop 12,000 deaths a year fairly quickly. Would take a while to eventually get the guns out of the country but slowly it would happen.

It also doesn't take a genius to work out that wearing a seat belt keeps you alive yet the US does not seem to think its worth doing or that they have the right to kill themselves. I usually counter that argument with what about the rights of the poor person that might also be involved in what should have been a minor accident or the first responders who have to scrape the bloodied bodies out of the car? Don't they have rights?

It also doesn't take a genius to work out that you must have something really wrong with your system if you claim to be extremely religious and "Just Say No" to drugs and sex is all you need to practice if you happen to have the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the world.

If you live in a country like Britain where the gun deaths, I Believe, are below 100 a year or Australia where compulsory seat belts came in in 1973 and the death toll from car accidents is now lower than it was at the time of WWII, per capita, several times lower than the US, the "rights to bear arms" or to be really lazy so you kill yourself starts to be something out of the files: "Only in America ...".



Regards

Ric


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RicS and Odin1, thanks for your lively interest in economics--currently, a passion of mine.

Odin1 you write
Quote:
Here, in the US, there are several reasons why we are in a recession.
I am curious: How about you and your family? Are you in recession?

Ric (from Australia), you write
Quote:
It also doesn't take a genius to work out that you (In the USA?) must have something really wrong with your system if you claim to be extremely religious and "Just Say No" to drugs and sex is all you need to practice if you happen to have the highest teenage pregnancy rate in the world.


Ric, how about your personal economic situation? And, what is going on in your community?

Please, permit me to brag:

I consider myself to be prosperous. Compared to my parents: I am wealthy. In addition to this, I happen to live in a VERY prosperous community--Markham, Ontario, Canada.

Will it last?

Who knows! Be this as it may, with the help of GØD, I am doing all that I can to make sure that it does,

Furthermore, I choose to dedicate what is left of my re-directment (retirement) years to doing the following:

I want to spend them helping anyone, interested, to have lives that are prosperous--physically, mentally and spiritually.

BTW, for this community, I will do what I can here. But to those who call on me for personal help: I will accept barter and/or cash. smile

Last edited by Revlgking; 04/20/08 10:34 PM.

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Hello Revlgking,

Yes, we are in a recession. It is terrible. It was reported last week that loan payments were at the highest recorded for non payment. No jobs, no money available. I am a small business owner and what I am telling you is not repeated gossip, I know first hand and have studied economics. My previous business partner has a Phd in economics. Like I said, the county I live in with 52000 people has a medicade budget of $6,000,000.00. For the past 3 years our property taxes have increase and this budget cycle in June they will go up again. NAFTA is the main culprit. A lot of people blame the price of fuel-it is just an aggrevation to the problem.
Higher taxes, no jobs, lack of economic developement because of poor leadership and crooked politicians. A reciept for disaster.

It doesen't do much good to make electronics and t-shirts in Mexico and China even if the price drops some if the people don't have the money to buy them. Then increasing property taxes are another deterrent for industry to locate. It is a little more complex that this however, I mentioned some of it in the previous post that you read.
Best Regards,
odin1


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Hello Ric,

You know, you are absolutely right about some of what you have just said. An item of interest I would like to share with you is this. Politicians do spend a lot of money to get elected to political office, in fact many spend much more than the office pays. For example, our state Senator for this district spent over $170,000.00 to get elected to a $18,000.00 per year seat. It is all public record you can get it on the internet with the state board of elections. This was in the final quarter of the 2006 election. Many of us here in the US have raised hell about this and also term limits. This particular man has served 33 two year terms in the NC Senate. This you are right on.

As for teenage pregnancy rates and just say no to drugs. The US didn't have this problem until it start paying children to have babies by welfare. Lydon Johnson started the "great society" in 1965 and this was the beginning of our problems. There has been a major break down in the US of the family and whamo-what do you have - teenagers having babies with no father, and father then becomes the "state". The state can't even do what it was mandated to do much less get in the family business. I know Ric your beliefs are different than mine, but I think we can agree, a child needs two parents if possible to raise it and show it the right way. The state and religion are at odds with this very topic and I will take the side of religion on this one. I was raised by my mother my father was killed when I was young. She did a good job, and had help from other family members, so I'm not saying a child with one parent is a lost cause. So, I think you might be missing some facts concerning this one. It is the state and Federal government encouraging children out of wedlock by encouraging the breakdown of the family unit. Will be glad to discuss this more with you but I am trying not to write a book.

As for WWI, the US didn't want to get in the war at the time we had a separatist stance. I think roughly 17% of our population then was German, and I will check this figure and get back with you. Many people here in the US didn't want to get involved in Europes troubles. And let me say, my family came from England, my great grandfather was from Liverpool and my other great grandfather was from around Yorkshire, we are as saxon as I guess you can get now. My heart goes out to old England. It wasn't because they didn't like the British or French, they just didn't want to get involved.

As for WWII, Mr. Roosevelt's record has recently came out concerning the embargo of oil to Japan, and I will be the first to say he ain't the hero he is portrayed to be. We are in agreement. Also, he did not pull the US out of the depression, the war did. The Federal Reserve caused the depression by tightening up on the money supply, but Herbert Hoover got the blame, just thought I would mention that, it wasn't mentioned but it is a common misconception here in the US. I had an uncle killed at the Rhine River under Patton, my father fought under McArthur in the Philiphines and my uncle has a piece of Japanese Zero in his foot. He just had a hip replacement and I was called last night because he fell in the shower. I had a cousin that dropped bombs over Japan. The US has had it's share of misery and paid it's debt with blood like everyone else.

Our economy has been proped up by credit for years now. That's our fault. I disagree however, with you on a service economy, like I said the only people that do well are the ones at the top. You have a lot of greedy people Ric that don't give a damn about the common folks. And I differ with you on the Roman economy. In the latter days of the empire they imported about everything they needed, paid out state funded welfare and taxed the people to fund new military excursions. It broke their back, they got broke and got lazy and would rather gamble at the coleseum than work.

"Those who forget the past are condemed to repeat it"

As for guns, Ric I love my right to bear arms and I have never shot anyone. We have too many attorneys in the US and they are getting elected to office and making the laws. And you know, Hannible killed 14,000 Romans in 1 day with swords and spears. The English killed several thousand French in the 100 years war in 1 day, with long bows. Man has always found a way to kill himself. I know it is easier to step off 50 yards and pull the trigger than to slash someone with a sword, but our ancestors did it before guns and we will do it again if all the guns would vanish. Enforcing the laws and encouraging a family oriented society would be a good start to cure this problem.

Don't take anything I say to you as being sarcastic or mean spirited, I encourage the truth from people, you can trust them then. I respect you opinion, it is good to hear from someone across the world, there is always another side. You are on target about the politicians and I was glad to hear someone else besides me say it.

Take care and stay in touch,

odin1





People will forgive you for anything -but being right !
odin1


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Well said Ric. I have never understood how anyone could argue against a Welfare System that supports unemployed or disabled people and also provides a completely free Health care which are some of the things we have here in Australia. It is paid for out of taxes, if you do not earn much you pay no tax but you still have medicine, operations and so on. I think this is a good use of taxes and there is nothing to stop me using the free system- it isn't a second rate thing, however There is a private system too if you want to subscribe. We do not have to pay for healthcare in hospitals at all, and we have subsidised doctor's visits and medicines from home too. We also have govt pensions or the elderly and disabled.

We have an Unemployment support system which, when the Textile Footwear and Clothing industries died in my town in the 80s and 90s due to Chinese imports, was able to support the people without jobs. It did not cut out after a few weeks, and there was training and support provided for those workers. This seems so much better than making them homeless and adding to the vagrants living on the street.

Odin -one reason why the US is in trouble is that the value of the American dollar is falling rapidly in world markets. This fall is out of the control of thre US govt. Because the US dollar does not buy so much the price of goods and imports in the marketplace rise (this includes oil). The indebtedness of the Americans to China has taken a huge blow since the Chinese no longer prefer to trade in US Dollars. The Euro, Canadian dollars and even our Aussie dollar are all favoured currencies now. When I went to the US in the 90s the Aussie dollar bought me 57c. Now I would get about 94-5!!! It is now difficult for the US to trade out of this mess because they have not got the items, such as large cars, that people want any more, also now, when the US should be trading out of the crisis, money is poured into the war in Iraq, the election and propping up the status quo.

Ric is right too about the insular feeling in the US. Aussies, Canadians and Europeans are travellers and find out a lot about other places. I loved a lot about the US (though I never got used to idea that a person next to me could have a gun in their bag). Two of my children lived there for 3 years each so I used to visit, and I am sad to see what is happening. I hope we do not see a return to isolationist policies in the future, but I think that is the way things will go.

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Ellis Offline OP
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Re: Teenage pregnancies. The best way to deal with this is Education, and more education. From the start of Primary School. With easy access to contaception from the age at which a person starts having sex. It is possible to have safe sex- that is safe from disease and safe from pregnancy - at any age after the start of puberty. US schools act as though this is impossible, and in some schools no sex ed. of any sort takes place.

Drug ed is considered important but many will never use the illegal stuff. However everyone on the planet has a sexual experience at some stage-- that should be acknowledged in all schools' curriculum.

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Odin1:
I am sorry to read that in your area--what area is it?--you are in recession.

BTW, I have the strong feeling that the main cause of destructive booms and busts in any area is what I call

THE DIVISIVE GAME OF WINGISM
=============================
What possible benefit does society stand to gain from the divisive game of wingism--"My wing is better than your wing"? May I remind readers that the root meaning of the word 'devil' is that which divides us.

THE DANGER OF DIABOLIC DIVISIVENESS
===================================
To illustrate this, I offer the following fable:

PAY ATTENTION TO THE FEATHERS, ESPECIALLY THE TAIL FEATHERS
===========================================================
There was once a beautiful eagle. It had two powerful wings, which were covered with beautiful feathers. Ordinarily, the wings operated in cooperation with the rest of the feathers, especially the humble tail feathers.

Interestingly the tail feathers were situated, humbly, right over the very important anus--the bottom line of what we consume.

The wings, directed by the head (the source of knowledge and wisdom) agreed to serve all the needs of the whole bird, including the wings, every day.

However, one day one of the wings--it matters not which one--for some diabolic reason, decided, egotistically, to do its own thing: "I will spread myself out when I choose to do so" said the wing. "I will rest when I want to. What need have I to balance myself with the actions of my other wing, as long as I give it the right to do its own thing, too."

Unfortunately, the wing made this divisive decision when the eagle was in full flight, high in the sky above the place where the eagles had their nest--the home to their very-hungry and new-born eaglets.

Without cooperative wings the eagle was no longer able to fly, majestically. In the full view of the shocked partner, the eagle came crashing down to its death leaving the other without a mate, and with the lonely task of raising the eaglets as a single parent. Sad.

The moral is obvious: Without feathers, especially the tail feathers, the ones humbly situated right over the anus, which act as a guidance and a balancing mechanism, no bird can survive.


[Does anyone know if male eagles, left without a partner, will
actually raise eaglets on their own? If he abandons his offspring, the tragedy is made even worse.]

WHERE ARE THE FEATHERS-LIKE ECONOMISTS?
========================================
This calls for the development of a third way of doing economics--neither exclusively left-winged nor right-winged--one which takes into consideration the needs of the least, even the smallest feather, among us.

THE CALL FOR A TRULY DEMOCRATIC CAPITALISM
==========================================
It also provides a way and the means of challenging the least among us to become democratic capitalists and wealth producers.

COMPLEMENTARY AND COMMUNITY CURRENCY (CCC)
====================================
How? By learning about and how to use what I call complementary community currencies (CCC). The following will tell you what a CCC is and how it works.

[ Check out http://www.torontodollar.com
Also look at the work of
Professor Bernard Lietaer, MIT graduate and a world expert on the
history, the nature and the function of money.
http://www.transaction.net ]


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HERE ARE NUMBER OF QUESTIONS AND COMMENTS BY BERNARD LIETAER
============================================================
What is money? Do we need more of it to solve some of the world?s problems? Or is money the cause of them? Ex-banker Bernard Lietaer thinks the latter is the case. And he has the solution: a new kind of money.

You have no idea what money is. Bernard Lietaer is too friendly and modest a man to say it that way, but this is the easiest possible way to sum up his message. If you did know what money was, then you?we?would see to it that we had a different monetary system.

Everything revolves around money. It's more than a cliche?; it's the daily experience of just about every world citizen not part of an indigenous tribe in the Amazon rain forest. And this daily experience involves, above all else, a continuous shortage of money.

There is not enough money to send the children to school. Not enough money for hospitals, or to care for the ever-greater numbers of old people who are getting ever older. Not enough money to clean up the environment and keep it that way. There is a lot of work to do, but no money to pay for it.

Who among us is not familiar with the feeling of wanting to contribute something but not having money to pay for that valuable contribution. The sad conclusion: If we just had more money, the world and our lives would be better.

But the kind of money we need is not the same old fiat-kind. Printing more of it just makes for inflation. Lietaer is talking about a new kind of community-based, not debt-based fiat currency. And it is not funny-money.

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G'day Revigking,

Pleasant sentiments and whether you are spiritual or not, to dedicate oneself to helping others is a worthy path.

Actually Australia's economy is about as good as it gets considering what's happening in the rest of the world. Our interest rates are a bit high but our unemployment is the lowest it has ever been and hovering around 4%. There are hiccups. No land has been released to satisfy the increased demand for housing in our largest cities for a very long time and no low income housing has been set aside for anybody. Right now in my suburb, the vacancy rate is about 0.03%. Since we have to move that is a real problem.

Oh and if the question was related to the social problems I mentioned, let's see. We have pretty low teen pregnancies. Sex education is compulsory in all schools. Religion is not. We have much lower drug rates than the US and much lower violence relating to drugs. We have around 100 firearms deaths per year in Australia and considering our population and the US, it is not hard to figure out who has a better figure. And if you think the absence of guns justs means that stabbing deaths go up, you're dead wrong. Our overall homicide rate is statistically insignificant. You have more chance of being killed by lightning.

And guns are not all that difficult to get in Australia if you really want to. An acquantance wanted a gun and got one delivered to his house within four hours. Personally I think he is an idiot but there is supply. There jusn't much demand. Most hold ups are done with machettes or knives. That's still not good but it sure beats killing five people in a convenience store because someone gets nervous.


Regards


Richard


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Hello RicS,

You almost sound like you are describing heaven. You aren't holding back on us are you?

odin1


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ABOUT FUNNY MONEY
=================
I will happy to dialogue with, and to learn from, anyone who thinks that complementary community currency (CCC) is just another form of "funny money". If you can convince me that it is, I will be glad to laugh with you.

Now about some really funny money.

REALLY FUNNY FIAT MONEY
=======================
For a real and sardonic laugh, check out the story, nature and
function of fiat money.

How many really know the story of how fiat money came, and continues to come, into being? And that it is created "out of thin air..."? as economist Paul Samuelson (MIT)--the first economist to win a Nobel Prize, in 1969--points out. [See Page 331 of the Canadian edition of his book, ECONOMICS. Then, over the next number of pages he gives a detailed example of how this works. He makes the point that the deposit is created by the bank and the public. Things get interesting when the bank decides that it does not have to keep 100 per cent
reserves.]

If anyone can convince me that funny fiat money has any real and
sustainable value, I am all ears.

BANKING CAN BE VALUABLE AND HONEST
==================================
Don't get me wrong. I am not against having a transparent and honest banking system. No modern society could exist without it.I am a firm believer that honest banking and the creation of real and honest credit, based on real and dividend-producing value, is possible.

But the problem, as I see it, is debt-based fiat money, with the
following note on its paper notes: "This is legal tender".

By the way, I remember when the the note read, "The Bank of Canada will pay the bearer". Why was this promise removed for all bank notes?

QUESTIONS?
Does anyone know who gave banks the approval to make this change? And why?
When and why did this happen?
Was there any public consultation?
When a bank gives you a loan, does it loan you its money?
Or do they use depositors money?
What is meant by "the multiple expansion of deposits"?
What is monopoly banking? Chain banking?
What is fractional-reserve banking?
What role did the old goldsmiths and jewelers play in creating
fractional-reserve banking?
What is the Bank of Canada?
Is it the bank of all Canadians?
Why is that one can't open an account in the B of C?
Why is the B of C not a private enterprise like the U.S. Federal Reserve System?

The above are but a few of the funny questions about the funny fiat system.



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Ellis Offline OP
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No odin he's not! We have, last weekend, also had a meeting of 1000 people (you could nominate yourself if you wanted). They went to our capital (Canberra) where they discussed what they felt were important areas that could be improved. The PM and Govt have promised to consider them. Not everyone is totally happy, most of us were impressed though. It was an amazing idea. ... the parliament listening to people, some of whom really were very, very ordinary. And believe it or not some of the ideas were brilliant. This is not democracy-- the attendees were not elected by anyone to represent anyone, just themselves. If you want a model it would be Market Research.

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