Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Not-Quite-Science Forum Money- too much or too little

Can I confirm with you exacly what this system does....

Lets say for this example I am a Farmer.

I give 20 cows to person 2 and on the electronic system I get some Barter Units put against my name.

I can then use these barter credits to buy Hay from person 3, so my number of barter units on the electronic system is reduce and I never get some Hay.

Now because technically not dollars have passed back and forth, under the legislation of most countries I wouldn't have to pay tax on this barter.

One thousand Microfractures through a peice of concret will do the same amount of damage as one major fracture, if not worse.

Wyld wrote---


Lets say for this example I am a Farmer

I give 20 cows to person 2 and on the electronic system I get some Barter Units put against my name.

I can then use these barter credits to buy Hay from person 3, so my number of barter units on the electronic system is reduce and I never get some Hay.

Now because technically not dollars have passed back and forth, under the legislation of most countries I wouldn't have to pay tax on this barter.



This system is not barter, as barter is the act of exchanging goods without the use of money. Money is a medium of exchange. In this system barter credits are de facto money as they can be exchanged for goods. Dollars are not the only form of money on the planet. Of course you would have to pay tax on the barter credits in the same way that tax is paid on non-monetary components of salary such as cars, holidays and lunches etc. Actually I would bet that any taxing institution would jumping on the fact that barter credits are really monetary units straight away.

Bartering is the direct swapping of the cows for the hay.

Ellis comments Ellis, you're right. Canadian tax law does precisely what you write.

WE WANT TRADEBUX TO BE RECOGNIZED AS LEGAL TENDER
=================================================
Our tax lawyers working for our universalbartergroup.com make the following argument: OK then, if tradeBUX are monetary units subject to taxation by the three levels of government, then we expect that the CRA (Canada Revenue Agency) should recognize tradeBUX as legal tender for the payment of taxes. Simple.

If come April 30, this happens we predict that charities, and churches will become recognized for what they have always been and, collectively, are: the third sector of the economy. The other two sectors being: The Government, and the business sectors. We also predict that this will encourage all kinds of opportunities for socially-useful and meaningful employment and production of goods and services.

For the record: I have been thinking about this idea since I was ordained in 1953. I began to write about it, seriously in the 1960's. In the 1970's, on the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corporation--public radio), I spent a whole week broadcasting the idea. In the 1980's, with the help of the same CBC, I became aware of the work of Michael Linton. At long last, I no longer felt alone. A small group of us formed the first Toronto LET system in 1985. Later came the Toronto Dollar system--approved by three mayors.

In order to make the idea more of a public issue, I ran for government in the 1990's--more than once. I felt like I was a mountain climber trying to find the best way to get up a steep slope. Also, in the 1990's, I went on line.

On line I soon discovered that there are many others climbers on the same mountain. Some fell away because of difficulties. However, with the help of the WWW, momentum began to build. More and more eventually joined the climb, from all sides.

Things finally came together about four years ago. Now, more and more of us can finally see that the winds of change have blown away the mist, the fog and clouds. The beautiful peak is just ahead, framed by a clear cerulean-blue sky. WOW!!!What a sight!!!!

Surely though the monetary system requires a mutually agreed upon standard for the medium of exchange. Thus it does not matter what the item used as currency is- historically in the Pacific cowrie shells were used as money as all agreed on their value and their value was the same for everyone. This consistency is very important. What is the value of a load of hay to me? Nothing at all - but to a drought ridden farmer its worth is priceless. The barter bux would become just another currency model as people would try to trade in them and not the goods. This would not be possible large-scale, though small scale, as in Club Med money it may work, but as we globalise strong currencies will become more highly portable not less and there will be no room for minor ones.

However it is a nice idea. I find it very attractive and I hope you prove me wrong!

"This would not be possible large-scale, though small scale, as in Club Med money it may work, but as we globalise strong currencies will become more highly portable not less and there will be no room for minor ones." Ellis

Ellis, keep in mind: Here we are talking about monetizing goods and services that are NOW just lying there, unused.

BTW, have you taken the time to read some of...? http://www.transaction.net

This is the Page of Dr. Bernard Litaer--a graduate of MIT, Boston. I have been in touch with him since 1997. He used to work with the World Bank, Brussels, Belgium. He helped design the Euro system. He got fed up with the way the banking system is ripping off the little guy.

I am glad you have a positive appreciation for what we are doing.
The mutually agreed on standard is this: One tradBUX = one dollar.

I am sure you must be aware--Are you?--that the gold, silver and bronze coins, which were minted at the Jerusalem Temple and widely used in Jesus' time, were part of the CCC system.

Also, are you aware of the way in which the Temple coins differed from the Roman and other foreign coins? I have made a study of this. VERY interesting.

I totally agree with you Ellis, I just wanted to confirm with Revlgking that was how the system works... before I put forward it was just another currency.





Can you please explain this comment, what do you mean goods and services that are now just lying there, and monetizing ???

Rev wrote:
This is the Page of Dr. Bernard Litaer--a graduate of MIT, Boston. I have been in touch with him since 1997. He used to work with the World Bank, Brussels, Belgium. He helped design the Euro system. He got fed up with the way the banking system is ripping off the little guy.


As I said:
"as we globalise strong currencies will become more highly portable not less and there will be no room for minor ones."

In much of Europe now there is only the euro (old coins are still legal tender but with a euro value ). The euro is becoming a viable substitute for the American dollar in international trade.

Personally I think it will still be possible to feel ripped off by the banks--even if they are using euros!

I don't think there would have been much of a change to how banks treat the average person before or after the Euro, they still exist to make a profit(unless you are talking about reserve banks).

In Australia more than a few small banking groups have grown in power as the years have passed, growing because of lower charges, better services. Now I will admit it would be very difficult to start your own bank, but it is possible.

WF asks me: "Can you please explain this comment, what do you mean goods and services that are now just lying there, and monetizing ???"

Let us suppose that you are a retired teacher, willing to tutor school children in need of help. Meanwhile, you have a roof that needs to be fixed. Because you have had some high expenses, recently, you have put things off.

Let us suppose that I am a roofer, with economic difficulties similiar to yours. Meanwhile, I have a child who needs help in school. If we were both members of www.universalbartergroup.com the system could be used to bring us together and thus put the capital (your skill and my skill) we both have to work.

Have you read www.transaction.net yet? If not, may I ask: How serious are you about all this?

I disagree with alot of what is spoken about on this website, when arguing something I like to have a clear understanding of what exacly a person is saying, so I can reply clearly and their is no confusion.



This is the comment that I disagree with more than anything else.

In most western countries currently poeple are living well beyond their means living on credit cards and other large amounts of debt. This is a seroius issue because poeple are not saving and spending far to much, this a great cause inflation, and debt above the amount poeple can pay is going to cause a market to crash, we had seen this over the last year in Amercia.

Money is hardly ever lazy in banks, they are constantly trying to make as much money of it as possible, by lending it out to poeple or investing it.

Now I said above to my money lent out is bad that is correct, but lending out money also allows poeple to start new business, and expand. This increase the amount of employment.

I love this comment, I wish I knew where these uptaped resources and talented poeple where being unused because this is where growth in a country should be. This is where captialism should be flourishing and globalisation will help it.

These poeple don't need a new system but help getting themselves focused and utilising these resources.

Now a smart bank and honest goverment should help provide these, its in both their interests to be havesting these resources, more industry, more money going into the bank they make a profit, the stronger the industry in a country the stronger the economy and the population are better off.

I really don't understand the spiralling into debt comment, is he talking about unemployeed poeple borrowing money to eat, or poeple borrowing money to try and start business or expand, it isn't really clear to me.

People borrowing money to eat is an issue definately, but increase in industry will mean more jobs therefore poeple won't have to borrow for food.

If its borrowing to start business or expand, and the local banks are dodgy then this is where globalisation helps, access to wider markets means more compeitive prices.

Rev wrote:
Let us suppose that I am a roofer, with economic difficulties similiar to yours. Meanwhile, I have a child who needs help in school. If we were both members of http://www.universalbartergroup.com the system could be used to bring us together and thus put the capital (your skill and my skill) we both have to work.


That's fine, and it would be barter. This transaction does not need the Barter bux you were talking about before. Between two individuals I would think it would also be legal and I doubt if it would draw attention from the Tax Office, but Wyld would know more about that. However it is not a new system.

I too question the existence of large pots of money under the bed. Certainly in most western countries a lot of the money that people spend is notional, and exists only in the debit column of some plastic card.

Monetizing means giving a dollar value to commodities, goods and services--things with intrinsic value.

Keep in mind that Fiat money, the kind created by the central banks, has no intrinsic value. It can be created virtually out of thin air--a kind of legalized fraud. BTW, except for actual gold and silver coins, how much value does our regular coinage actually have? I suspect it is very little.

The purpose of the electronic tradeBUX is just to keep track of the trades.

This debt-based system, invariably, is the basic cause of our economic-bubbles which go BANG!!!! leaving all of us with inflation and many people with soul-destroying debts. I believe it is also the cause of unnecessary wars, causing huge national debts which benefits only the money lenders.

Let us not forget Eisenhower's warning:
Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961
http://coursesa.matrix.msu.edu/~hst306/documents/indust.html
"Beware of the power of the military-industrial complex..."

The UniversalBarterGroup (UBG) is about democratic capitalism. It seeks to work with all moral and ethical forms of business, including banks and the national currency system. It is complementary to, not contrary. We want the poor to have meaningful employment and the opportunity to create wealth, not take it away from others who have created it. It is not about how we divide the pie; it is about making more pies. Read Matt. 25--the parable of the talents.

Ellis, you say that barter, "is not a new system." Of course it isn't. But the PC has added a new dimension as to what can be done. Using it we could set up what I call THE 4U UNION.

This union could include every class: the unemployed, the under employed, the under paid, and the unhappy (this could include the rich). Our motto could we: JOIN 4U--WE ARE FOR YOU. The goal would be to create meaningful employment for all who need it.

Every trade you make you put a value on a resource or item, even if you are bartering tutoring for roof fixing, the value just isn't in an easy to understand amount.

These barter bux have no intrinsic value either, from what I understand they are a merely a couple of bites on a server somewhere.

Is the idea of this system to

a) remove credit from the world, e.g. no loans, no credit cards

b) create a system where there is unlimited amount of currency rather than the current finite amount that is currently in circulation.

c) a monetary system that is not run by a government

I will admit perhaps I am a little biased in this comparison, because in Australia our Economic setup is very good and proves that the Money system works, when connected to a good government and independent bodies.

The cause of large amount of debt of the population in western countries is because of a social source (the need to keep up with next door, we are a consumer world these days) and not economically related (other than the fact that credit is available to use)

I have no issue with bartering at all, and while I am sure the Tax department would like to know about it, there is no real way for them to trace it.

Revlgking, I would be interested to know what you opinion of communism is ??

The value of money is arbitrary. Currency is no longer backed by gold, but instead its value is mutually agreed upon by the international financial institutions using it. Currencies are ranked against each other and some are much more desirable than others. It is not possible to go happily minting your own money as inflation against other currencies will make it worthless--this is what happened in Zimbabwe as I mentioned it at the start of this topic. This inflation is far more likely to go BANG than the resulting depression as a result of debt. It is possible, though hard work, to trade out of debt, but trading out of inflation will simply inflame the situation.

OK that's a bit over-simplified Wyld, but near enough!!

Ellis, I totally understand and agree with that...

One of the issues brought up on http://www.transaction.net is that a currency with a finiate amount is bad.... which I laugh at because the reason to mentioned above

I was hoping from my question to get Rev to tell me what he felt the major goal of the system was...

On a side note, demand for a currency is a big effect on its value, while banks decide how much they are willing to exchange it for, there is an entire market just based on the value of dollars and where currencies are traded.

This Demand is normally affected by exports and imports of a nation and the average interest rate and investing opportunities in the nation. Of course reserve banks can with draw currency from circulation which obviously has an effect.

Talking of value--You may not remember the first 50 cent Aussie coin Wyld, but I do. It had to be replaced after a few years because its silver content was greater than its monetary value!! What would that be called---DEflation?

If no one was told what was happening...this sounds like fraud to me.

BTW, in ancient and Roman times, before the invention of another kind of fraud--fiat, or paper money--this is how money was inflated, by debasement. Keep in mind that coins were valued according to their by weight, not by a number on the coin,

Historians tell us that, by the time the Roman Empire fell, gold coins were mostly lead coins dipped in gold. This created inflation and that such inflation was one of the reason for the fall of Rome as a super power. Does it remind you of another super power, today?