Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Not-Quite-Science Forum Money- too much or too little

Mike- Here is a very nice comment on the French bank fraud from this morning's Age newspaper that seems especially suited this science-y spot:

"The laws of physics seem to be trumped by the laws of finance. The larger the sum of money defrauded, the harder it is to detect".... Writer David Davies (a welshman--Hooray!)

And ain't that the truth!

I was told once, though I will not vouch for the truth of it, that Sweden only allows its citizens to take home up to a certain amount, the rest is taxed. Others are supported by the state as necessary, and thus everyone has an income which is closer to the average than usual. Good idea?

Regarding the "Brain Drain-- it is real here in Oz, members of my own family included, but they come back. Not to as much money, certainly, but most do return. Because of the isolation and lack of opportunity to compare they are often surprised that Australia is not a bad place to live, and living elsewhere only proves it.

Ellis, speaking of the economic system in Sweden, which as I understand it, is socialist, asks:

Ellis, I'm a pragmatist. But, I am also one who believes in what I call a feathers approach to the political economy. That is, I believe that when the left and right wings operate in a state of balance the whole body of the bird (society) benefits. Therefore, my question is: Do we know how well the Swedish system works? Is it pragmatic socialism?--one which makes room for creative and democratic capitalism?

BEWARE OF DISASTROUS WING ISM
=============================
DISASTER SOCIALISM
Or is it simply a form of disaster socialism? The kind--like perhaps the old Soviet Union was--that is so left-winged that it can do nothing but fly in ever-decreasing circles, down and down, to its own destruction. I am not a fan of disaster socialism.

DISASTER CAPITALISM
By the way, I have the same feeling about what the author, Naomi Klein, calls "disaster capitalism", in her book, SHOCK DOCTRINE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Klein

BEWARE OF DISASTROUS WING ISM! In my opinion it is a deadly social and pneumatological (spiritual) disease.

More about the book by Naomi Klein: THE SHOCK DOCTRINE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shock_Doctrine
Be sure and check out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kieyjfZDUIc

I feel I understand where she is coming from, but I prefer a balanced and feathers approach to solving the problems of society and the economy. I will leave the shock-and-aware approach to others.

Sweden seems to be doing very very well indeed, and the same could be said of the Scandinavian countries generally I believe. No signs of spiralling disaster, though I believe that Sweden has a high suicide rate, but due to lack of sun and light, not lack of money, the gloom in winter is apparently very depressing. I think that there is no way the trickle down theory was ever going to work. The 'haves' would not let there be any drip down to the 'have nots', partly because they believe they are entitled to what they have and also because they believe it is the 'have nots' own fault they are needy.

We all need to have some money, with, if possible some left over to spend on things we want- not just things we need.. What we do not have to have is vast stores of it that we then able to spend on rubbish, while others die for lack of food. That is wrong. That is happening now. It is happening in wealthy countries now. I would rather live in Sweden than the USA for instance.

I actually have inlaws in Sweden. Interestingly, their surname is Englund. I did the wedding for my daughter's step-daughter (Adams) to Mr. Englund. It took place at a floating hotel, near Tofino, BC. Quite a story. Mr. Englund is a concert violinist and music producer in a small city, north of the Arctic circle. He is paid, out of government taxes, as part of the way the government supports artists. Sounds okay to me.

Ellis, you comment Of course, you are on target.

PUTTING THE POOR TO WORK FOR EACH OTHER USING CCC
-------------------------------------------------
Perhaps you are already aware of my interest--Using The Family Life Foundation--in promoting the use of complementary community currency (CCC). The FLF helped start the Toronto Dollar program in 1998. Take a look at
http://www.torontodollar.com
http://www.transaction.net
http://numismondo.com/pm/ssi/
http://universalbartergroup.com
--------------------------
We have even been successful in convincing Mayor David Miller, of Toronto, to back this CCC movement. Because it encourages the poor to help themselves, even the well-to-do seem to like this system. And the WTD's can actually make use of it. All foods banks could use the CCC system.I will be happy to have any comments and questions, including any constructive criticisms any of you may have.

I have had a think about Money, and World Monetary values.
Its quite obvious that there are rich and poor countries, in just the same way as there are rich and poor people.

But there is absolutely no democratic way you can take from the rich to help feed and clothe the poor, of the World..... I mean the whole Worlds poor.

What is really needed is- Complete World Currency Revaluations

This is my serious thought as to how this revaluation might be achieved.
In the main, individuals get rich because they work hard.
Generally hard work achieves wealth and fame.

The Country that has a hard working population. would, in the same way, become rich.
In order for any country to achieve its true monetary value, and the recognition of its currency on a par with others.
Its currency VALUE should be adjusted in relation to all the other World Currencys

Here is how I think World Currency values might be adjusted.
Every country would adjust its Currency Values according to
the value of its yearly exports.

I will determine the wealth of every Country by dividing the value of its its Exports by the number of people it has.

Every country in the world would would do the simple division sum:- Yearly Export Value/Population.

Here are a few examples, not absolutely correct....since I only have the 1991 the Gross National per capita instead of actual annual Export figures, but the Population figures, for that year are correct. Figures below show the idea.

Export/Population Figures are all in Millions, and US dollars

U. K...Exports =17.0m .Population=55.0m....True Value £= $0.30
Egypt .Exports.=0.62m..Population=53.0m .True Value dinar=$0.01
U.A.E..Exports.=20.0m..Population=1.5m. ..True Value rial=$12.5
Switzerland Exp=34.0..Population.=7.0m..True Value sfranc=$4.8
Germany .Exports 17.0m Population.=80.0m..True Value dm.= $0.21
USA. .Exports.=23.0m .Population.=250.0m.... True Value. .$0.090
Australia Exports= 17.0m. Population=17.0m True Value A$ =$1.0

Just a rough figures to show that in real time the United Arabic
Emirates rial, is worth at least 12 X Australian $, which itself is worth 5 X times the value of the German deutchsmark.

If all Rates of Exchange and money transactions, were to be based upon these Monetary RATIO'S, and updated yearly, it would to my mind, make for a much fairer distribution of the worlds wealth.

Mike, your interesting comment raises some very interesting questions:
1. Are you in inferring that it could be done, autocratically?

Hitler did it. I once read a historian who said that had Hitler died before 1939 he would have gone down as one of great leaders of Europe.

Until he foolishly got the Germans into a stupid war, look what he did for for the poor and the unemployed of Germany.
Here is an irony: Beginning in 1933 (I was 3), Germany's getting ready for war was, economically speaking, good for my community http://www.bellisland.net --Conception Bay--Just north of St. John's--Newfoundland.

The fully employed Germans, and their need for iron, kept the 2100 miners, on Bell Island, employed. When WW 2 finally came, it employed the whole of North America.

2. Would it be awfully punny of me to say that many people--especially those in war-related industries, including workers in the weapons industry, doctors, nurses, hospital workers...and let us not forget the chaplains and the undertaking industry--made a killing as a result of WW 2 ?
I read somewhere that the over-all cost, in lives, was well over 20,000,000 lives. But look at the prosperity and employment it created. What more can we ask from our economic experts!

BTW, at 12, I was literally a few hundred yards from exploding torpedoes which sank four iron ore carriers, near our island, and hit one of our loading piers. War is obviously a "creative" make-work program.

3: If we can employ everybody by making war, how come we find it difficult to do so by waging war on poverty?

4. If the whole world's poor, who are the economic schlemiels (bunglers) who are running things, anyway?

Any answers, anyone?

Of course war is profitable--- always has been, still is. For the victors that is. There's even a profit in re-building the country that was conquered, not to mention the fact that the victor can claim the resources of the vanquished as theirs by a sort of right of conquest. Whilst Newfoundland was enjoying the spoils of war Poland was having a dreadful time, as was France, Holland, and Russia, even Britain, followed by most of the rest of the world. The generosity shown by the American people to not only their allies but also to the defeated enemy was remarkable (and possibly now forgotten) but the resulting extra production and resources gained helped enable the economy of the US to become the giant it has.

If you are talking about creating a world monetray system, you may as well be discussing a world nation..... because its not going to happen till we are governed by one single body ruling the world.

A couple of years ago many western nations and others around the world met to create a standard accounting and reporting set. The idea was to create something so poeple from any nation could look at the information about a public business and understand what is happening with it easily, with out needing a masters in business...

Being an Accountant and Economist this effected my livly hood and pretty much my future existance so I watched the whole matter very carefully, it was hillarous to see how some nations attempted to twist the ideal or others (USA had the loudest voice in this group) basicly said either you do it our way or we won't be a part of it.

To be honest the wealth of a country atleast when it comes to monetry value is most effected by their Exports/Imports, how much of the currency is in circulation (Pretty much Goverment Controled), and how good investments are paying off in the nation.

Who has heard of the British economist Hazel Henderson?

https://fp.auburn.edu/tann/hazel/index.htm
THE POLITICS OF MONEY and other editorials
http://www.hazelhenderson.com/editorials/politics_of_money.html
=========================
Although she is best known for her work on alternative economics and sustainability, Hazel Henderson has been a visionary in the field of electronic democracy. Starting with her pioneering 1970 article "Computers: Hardware of Democracy," through her recent chapter on "Perfecting Democracy's Tools" in Building a Win-Win World. She continues to lead the way in her ideas about empowering citizens via telecommunications.

MONEY—Paul, writing to his young companion and assistant, Timothy (1 Tim. 6:10) said: "For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil."

I think I understand where Paul was coming from. But keep in mind that, in his day, all economies were almost entirely barter economies. That is, they were based on the exchange of commodities--goods and services--not, as in modern times, on the exchange of pieces of paper--fiat currencies, which are backed by nothing but how much we trust one another. Who said we lack faith?

In Jesus day, it was possible for people to live at an agrarian standard of living without having to have moneta--bronze, silver and gold.

OURS IS A MONEY-BASED ECONOMY
=============================
I suspect that if Paul were alive today he would say something like as follows: "The lack of a just, moral, ethical, people-based and loving money system which I consider to be the root of much evil. Some people have too much of it, and some people have too little. This is a greed-based-imbalanced and unjust money system, which is the root cause of much of the unrest and lack of harmony and peace there is in the world. This problem must be solved.

PAUL'S CONCERN WAS ABOUT WHAT THE ABUSE OF MONEY DOES TO THE RICH AS WELL AS TO THE POOR
=======================
Read what Paul says around the key verse I quote above: With real concern in his heart, for the happiness of the well-to-do, he speaks about how the rich fall into temptation, get, "caught in the trap of many foolish and harmful desires, which pull them down to ruin and destruction." He laments that many of them have, "wandered away from the faith and have broken their hearts with many sorrows." Ask the CEO's of once great corporations (Enron, World Com, Hollinger, etc.) who are either in or headed for jail.

WHAT IS MONEY?
==============
The Latin and Italian for money is, moneta. It comes from the name of the goddess, Juno Moneta (meaning the protector). Juno Moneta was the wife of Jupiter (Zeus was the Greek equivalent), king of the Roman gods. It was in Juno Moneta's temple that Roman coins were minted.

Money has a long and fascinating history. Historians tell us that money, in one form or another,came into being long before recorded history. Long before paper and coins with numbers were used, animals--cattle, sheep, pigs, fowl, etc.,--were used. So were crops, such as grains and tobacco.

When more complex social units, such as tribes and cities, came into being--led by individuals with god-like powers--more and more use was made of metals. Gold, silver, copper, bronze, etc., which traded by weight, were the most portable and, therefore, convenient. Coins with numbers on them came much later.

But keep in mind that metals were, in effect, barter items--that is, they had intrinsic value. Paper money, with no intrinsic value, came much later.

THE POUND AND THE DOLLAR
========================
The Latin and Italian for pound is lira, the French is livre. This why we use the symbol "L".
It is said that the original pound was a pound of copper.

By the way, it was expected that a pound of any
metal--gold, silver, copper, whatever, was not some debased amalgam. More details can be found at the sites listed below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Money#The_emergence_of_money
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Currency

What about paper money? For an answer to this question check out:

THE SILKROAD FOUNDATION
"The Bridge between Eastern and Western Cultures"
http://www.silkroadfoundation.org/artl/papermoney.shtml

According to the silkroadfoundation.org,"Paper currency was a
by-product of Chinese block-printing. It started in the Tang dynasty, but it was not until the Song dynasty that it became institutionalized as a governmental policy ... Unfortunately no written documents exist today which enable us to know how this system of paper currency actually functioned prior to the Yuan period." Interestingly, modern China calls it money yuans.

WE ARE SLOW LEARNERS, OR WHAT?
=============================
Also interesting is that, "When Marco Polo travelled to China, in the 13th century, he was so impressed by the idea of paper money that he described how it was made, used and valued. Despite this, paper money was not commonly used in Europe until the 17th century." Four hundred years! This goes to show how so slow we human beings often really are when it comes to learning new ways of doing things.

GOVERNMENTS, AT ALL LEVELS! WHAT'S THE PROBLEM?
==============================================
When you tell us that many socially useful projects have to go undone, I want to ask: Is it because of the lack of money? Or is there an actual lack of people, goods and services to get the job done?

Now, if the problem is an actual lack of capital resources--including the lack of bricks, mortars and other commodities, trades people, labourers and the like--I can accept this. However, if you tell me that the problem is the lack of money—the unit of measurement, I want to ask, how come?

This is like a contractor saying to me: "Mr. King, we cannot complete building your house, because our trades people have run out of inches.

THE RE-INVENTION OF PAPER MONEY IN EUROPE
=========================================
The story goes that—and no one knows, exactly, how it actually
happened—paper money was re-invented, in Europe, not by any
government, but by certain enterprising entrepreneurs, who made a
business of storing coins and precious metals, belonging to the
well-to-do, for a fee. Knights and others, returning from the
Crusades, had need of a place to store the precious metals which they had earned, and/or stolen, while on their crusades. On the deposit of the precious metals—much of it gold and silver—the warehouse-owners gave the depositors paper receipts. Perhaps most of them were honest; but some were less so.

Most depositors simply kept their gold in storage, and used their
receipts like we, today, use paper money to pay debts. Instead of
redeeming the notes for metal—which the note bearers presumed remained on deposit—most recipients simply used them over and over again. By the way, until the 1960's, our banknotes actually carried the words,
"The Bank of Canada will pay the bearer..." (I have a couple of such
notes). Supposedly, they were backed by metal. Today's banknotes,
which are not backed by bank-held metals, carry the simple statement:
"This is legal tender". This is called fiat currency.

It wasn't long before savvy warehouse owners noticed that a large
percentage of the deposited metals remained, un-redeemed, in their
vaults. Yielding to temptation, certain vault owners , without fully
disclosing what they were doing—that the gold in their vaults actually
belonged to others—started creating unsecured paper money loans, and
loaned it out, at interest—to the war-like nobility and adventurers
clamouring for loans. In other words, the vault owners created money,
in the form of paper, and out of thin air. Sound familiar? And some of
them made fortunes. Some lost everything. Later, with the help of the
powerful nobility and legal advisers, which created the laws of the
land, this way of doing business—And let us not be afraid to name it
for what it was, fraud—was actually made legal. It became what we now
call fractional-reserve banking.
===============================
If you think I am making this up, check out any of the basic texts on
economics. For example, see pages 278-279, Basic Economics, by Richard
Echaus, Professor of Economics, Massachusetts Institute of Technology.

Interestingly, Chapter 14 of Marshal McLuhan's book, Understanding
Media, is all about that most important medium, money.

Just a side note, to this discussion I doubt the world would have become as technolgical evolved if any form of currency had not come around.

You're absolutely right, Wyld. Now, what do you suggest is the next step? Have you looked at the information about Hazel Henderson and what she suggests?

From what I understand these Barter Systems are just another form of currency... The major difference is they are not control by a goverment rather another group of poeple, and loans do not exist on them.

I totally agree that with globalization your loose out on the small community, but I would argue you are joining a much large one... I beleive that globalization of markets, business is the most likely peaceful way to bring around a true unity to the world.

There are definate issues with the value of money, around the world but most of the issues are more to do with interests rates and huge levels of credit rather than the value of a dolar. These low interest loans where never really supportable and were going to crash eventally.

I think a world wide currency would be great, and solve alot of problems in the world, I am interested to hear from europeans think of what the euro has done for their country.

BTW, with the help of http://www.universalbartergroup.com The Family Life Foundation
http://www.flfcanada.com, which I helped get started in 1973, is on the verge of convincing, with the help of our tax lawyers, the The Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) http://www.cra.gc.ca/charities to accept tradeBUX (our name for barter dollars) as partial payment for taxes. This April is the testing time.

BTW, Wyld, It is not, "just another form of currency". Once barter currency becomes a widely accepted system--as it will if tradeBUX are accepted as payment for taxes--can you imagine the implication that this will have for the economy, especially the local one?

GLOBALIZATION--the good and the bad effects
===========================================
Globalization has been good for some businesses and for the people who work for them. For example, it is good for those in the commodities sectors; those with minerals, timber, and produce to export. China buys a lot from resource-rich Canada.

However, Globalization is bad for the manufacturing sector. Look at the number of jobs that have been lost to the cheap labour markets like China and Mexico.

TradeBUX, as a system, is a way of putting skilled people to work for one another, and paying one another, in the local econonmy.

For example, Let us suppose that I own a car repair business and you come into my shop to get your car fixed. This involves you having to pay me for parts and labour.

To cover my costs for the parts, which I have to import, you will need to pay me in federal dollars.

However, labour is another matter. Labour is a local product. If we are part of the tradeBUX system then these could be used to pay a large part of the bill. Of course, to simplify the transaction a plastic card could be used to keep track of things just like we do with debit cards.

Meanwhile, if tradeBUX can be used to pay part of the taxes involved, this makes tradeBUX acceptable to all involved.

By the way, where did you get the tradeBux to pay part of my bill?

TradeBUX come from two basic sources. First, you get them for depositing so many hours of your skill into the system. Second, if you qualify for welfare, you get them from the government store of tradeBUX which it collects in taxes.

This system will work for anyone who wants to save federal dollars to buy things which have to be imported.

But can you imagine what a boon it is for someone who, in terms of federal money, is living at or below the poverty line? It could make the difference between having a car, or not having one, to get him and his family to where they have to go.

TradeBUX are good for everyone, including governments.
For the unemployed and the working poor they will make all the difference one can imagine.

Here is a challenge:
Imagine yourself as a member of the tradeBUX system. Come up with things and skills you have and are willing to trade.

Now, come up with things you want and willing to accept from others in the system.

THE FOLLOWING IS A REVISED VERSION OF THE ABOVE
===============================================
BTW, Wyld, It is not, "just another form of currency". Once barter currency becomes a widely accepted system--as it will if tradeBUX are accepted as payment for taxes--can you imagine the implication that this will have for the economy, especially the local one?

GLOBALIZATION--It is good for some; not so good for others
==========================================================
Globalization has been good for some businesses and for the people who work for them. For example, it is good for people with commodities--minerals, timber, and produce--to sell. China buys a lot of commodities from resource-rich Canada.

However, Globalization is not so good for the manufacturing sector. Look at the number of jobs that have been lost to the cheap labour markets, like China and Mexico.

WHAT TO DO:
===========
We need to understand that globalization did not begin in the 1980's. It began, for our European ancestors, the day after the first entrepreneur seafarers became convinced that the earth is a globe. The search for the north west passage was about globalization. Like it or not, world trade is a fact.

LET US ENJOY WORLD TRADING
==========================
In my opinion we can enjoy the good which globalization has to offer. However, if we are to do so, at the same time, we need to encourage the development of local barter systems, which have so much to offer to local trading communities.
==========================================

TradeBUX, as a system, is a way of putting skilled people to work for one another, and paying one another, in the local economy using what I call a complimentary and community-based currency (CCC).

Here is an example of how any CCC works. I own a car repair business. You come to my shop to get your car fixed. This involves you having to pay me for parts and labour.

I expect you to cover my costs, with federal dollars, for the parts for which I have pay my supplier federal dollars.

However, my profit and labour costs are another matter. Labour is a local product. If you and I are part of a CCC system using, and I want your business, I could agree to let you pay a goodly portion of your bill using a CCC such as tradeBUX. Of course, to simplify the transaction a plastic card could be used to keep track of things just like we do with debit cards.

Meanwhile, if tradeBUX can be used to pay part of the taxes involved, this makes tradeBUX acceptable to all involved.

By the way, where did you get the tradeBux to pay part of my bill?

TradeBUX come from two basic sources. First, you get them for depositing so many hours of your skill into the system. Second, if you qualify for welfare, you get them from the government store of tradeBUX which it collects in taxes.

This system will work for anyone who wants to save federal dollars to buy things which have to be imported.

But can you imagine what a boon it is for someone who, in terms of federal money, is living at or below the poverty line? It could make the difference between having a car, or not having one, to get him and his family to where they have to go.

TradeBUX are good for everyone involved in the CCC system, including the haves, the have-nots and our the three levels of government. For the very unhappy unemployed and the working poor they could make all the difference in the world.

Here is a challenge:
Imagine yourself as a trading member of the tradeBUX CCC system. Name the goods and services you have to offer to the system.

Now, name the goods and services you need, or want, from the system.

Wyld wrote:
I totally agree that with globalization your loose out on the small community, but I would argue you are joining a much large one... I beleive that globalization of markets, business is the most likely peaceful way to bring around a true unity to the world.

I think that money, and/or the lack of it, has been the source of revolution on many occasions. I dread to think of it on a global scale!