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#23989 - 10/20/07 11:59 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tim]
Mike Kremer Offline

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Originally Posted By: Tim
"If we are created in God's image and we are potentially good but then choose evil, perhaps we were evil all along."



The corollary of that is-

"If we are not created in God' image and we are potentially bad
but then choose good, prehaps we were blessed with a set of brains.

P.S What exactly is Dualism?

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#23990 - 10/21/07 12:17 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tim]
Mike Kremer Offline

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Originally Posted By: Tim
"If we are created in God's image and we are potentially good but then choose evil, perhaps we were evil all along."

Hum, that view could be problematic, too.
But maybe it doesnt matter, because we can't go back and choose the un-evil, whatever that is. That does not mean we were evil all along, it could have been just at that point in time; before we couldnt have been choosing that evil, nor after.

"God" and "the devil" could not be at war within us, even the Christian religion does not say that. I dont know much about Dualism, other than it says something like that, but is ultimatley flawed.



I can NEVER seem to reply to these posts, as I can never find to tack on to the end.
It just dos'nt work. Or may be its me? Having posted a reply to Tim (this post)My reply comes out at post No 23989, on another sheet. Why?

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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#23992 - 10/21/07 02:08 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Tim]
Revlgking Offline
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Tim, Mike, I think I see where Mailer is going. For much of the way what he says--the idea of the artistry of GØD, one with the creative and eternal process--makes sense, but I am inclined to feel that all the way we are ONE with GØD, in the process. IMO, There is no kind of separation, no GØD out there, or up there, no dualism.

What is dualism? Dualism is the view that two fundamental concepts exist, such as good and evil, light and dark, or male and female. Often, they oppose each other. The word's origin is the Latin dualis, meaning "two" (as an adjective).Check out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism
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#24002 - 10/22/07 06:54 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Revlgking wrote:

"Dualism is the view that two fundamental concepts exist, such as good and evil, light and dark, or male and female. Often, they oppose each other. The word's origin is the Latin dualis, meaning "two" (as an adjective)."

The word's origin might be Latin but the belief is Zoroastrian. Cyrus was Zoroastrian and from his time it seems to enter Jewish belief. From that it entered Christianity, probably via Mithraism.

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#24021 - 10/23/07 05:51 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Ellis Offline
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But dualism should be able to exist without beiing allied to the belief in a Diety. In any proposal or concept there will have to be at least two opposing points of view. Or does duality only allow for and against. Duality, the word, does imply this, which seems to be an over simplification to me.

I thought Zoroastrianism was bigger than duality- (good and evil), -as it suggests the existence of order and chaos throughout the entire universe- not a code of morality.

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#24054 - 10/25/07 09:30 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis, theologically speaking, theistic dualism teaches, by implication, that there are two divine beings, God and the Devil, competing for the souls of people. Even most theists reject that this is true. Process theology sees evil as good in the making.


Edited by Revlgking (10/25/07 09:30 PM)
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#24057 - 10/26/07 12:36 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Thanks for the explanation Rev. Obviously Dualism has a narrower appilication than I had assumed, and equally obviously I cannot agree with it at all. However I do warm to the idea of evil ( whatever that is) being good in the making. A nice optimistic religious idea!!

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#24061 - 10/26/07 03:28 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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I like to think of the GØD-like spirit in us as that which helps us act like engineers and artists. Thus we bring order out of chaos and beauty out if ugliness. The book of Genesis speaks of the spirit of God bringing light and order out of the darkness of the deep--the chaos.
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#24072 - 10/27/07 01:24 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Well we must both be mellowing I think as I agree with the idea of order out of chaos---but not because of god---just spontaneous evolving of the situation. It could have turned out very differently and probably has, and maybe is, elsewhere in the universe.

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#24073 - 10/27/07 01:28 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Ellis Offline
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PS. Where did the cute little person come from, and why is mine SO HAPPY!!? Everyone else's looks asleep!!

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#24081 - 10/27/07 05:16 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis writes:
Quote:
Well we must both be mellowing I think as I agree with the idea of order out of chaos---but not because of god---
Ellis, I do not use the term GØD to indicate a personal being who causes creation and evolution. Therefore I never say, because GØD, or God, willed this, or that, so and so came about. For me, GØD is in, through and around the whole process we call existence, which is yet to become complete.

BTW, regarding dualism, check out:
http://moebius.psy.ed.ac.uk/~dualism/papers/brains.html
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G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#24082 - 10/27/07 05:46 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Parapsychology and dualism:
http://moebius.psy.ed.ac.uk/
Arthur Koestler and his interest in parapsychology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_Koestler#Paranormal_and_scientific_interests


Edited by Revlgking (10/27/07 05:48 PM)
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#24087 - 10/28/07 08:12 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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The work of Abraham Maslow and what he called, "Peak Experiences". Here is some information:

Quote:
The psychologist Abraham Maslow, who was a pioneer in studying the positive aspects of human psychology, defined them. He wrote, "These moments were of pure, positive happiness, when all doubts, all fears, all inhibitions, all tensions, all weaknesses were left behind. Now self-consciousness was lost. All separateness and distance from the world disappeared..." These experiences are rare, but can come at any unpredictable time and completely transform life. People have adopted whole new belief systems from one single taste beyond the veil of the senses. These experiences have a curative power.

This kind of perfect harmony in brain wave patterns is also found in small infants when they are nursing, in pets when they are being petted and in adults when they are experiencing expansion of consciousness. What is being measured is a mind that is still, a mind that is in the present moment, not caught by regret for the past or worry for the future.

A mind that is working like this is creating a healthy body. Your body is already spewing out millions of chemical reactions every second. When your mind is tense, anxious, nervous, your body responds by producing tense, anxious, nervous molecules like adrenaline and noradrenaline. When your mind is calm and peaceful, your body produces calm and peaceful molecules like Valium. Your body is already producing chemicals similar to any that your friendly neighborhood pharmacist will give you, but without the side effects. When your body produces Valium, it makes you feel tranquil but without also making you feel like a zombie. When your body produces anti-cancer drugs or anti-bacteria drugs, these drugs have no side effects.

The body does this absolutely naturally, in the right amount at the right time, ideally suited for the correct target organ, and all the instructions are included in the packaging. Your body does this completely spontaneously for you when it is not stressed.

How do we unstress the body? How do we keep new stresses from accumulating? How do we learn to maintain inner peace and tranquility in the face of the hectic pace of the modern world? How do we learn to stop undermining ourselves with destructive internal programs? How do we learn to expand our minds to our full potential?

This is the introduction to Meditation techniques such as Transcendental Meditiation and Ascension. Yoga is meditation or the joining of the body and mind in a neutral space such as the absolute. Yoga asanas are physical postures but without the ability to take the mind inward naturally if there is any effort at all in maintaining the physical position.

There has been research of the brain wave activity to determine the affects of meditation . Hooking electroencephalographic leads onto the brain, onto the temporal, parietal and occipital lobes of the left and right hemispheres, when one is awake in normal activity the brainwaves are chaotic and random.
In contrast to this, during certain types of meditation such as TM or Ascension, the entire surface of the cortex becomes completely coherent.

The body and mind settles into a deep state of rest, the body heals itself by throwing off toxins and accumulated physical stress as it does in sleep but does not take 6 hours to reach a state to begin the process. As one continues to make a practice of meditation the state of coherence becomes the natural state of mind rather than that of the random brain wave patterns before meditation.

IMO, Maslow, because of his interest in the nature of the human spirit at its best, was more of a pneumatologist than a psychologist.


Edited by Revlgking (10/28/07 08:15 PM)
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#24090 - 10/28/07 11:42 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Rev, do you feel that these moments are evidence of god, or do you see it as part of the oneness of god in everything? Or are they both the same?

Incidently I feel that the nursing baby example is a two way thing. There is powerful pure happines in nuturing a contented baby.

I do agree that these states can be reached, and I like the inclusion of pet animals. If I ever rule the world I will ensure that every child has a pet to care for! Such moments of happiness need not be rare if we use contentment as our benchmark, and not aspiration.

However I am always wary of any proposition that states we can think ourselves healthy. We can think ourselves happy, content, even euphoric, but for some of us life can be a struggle and it is wrong of us who are not so affected to think that even positive thinking can cure disease or defects. The person invoved can be optimistic, happy etc. but they will still have the disease or defect, thinking does not make it go away. It has to be dealt with in the knowledge that improvement may not happen and in fact deterioration may be the only future.

One of my personal pet hates (and I do not often use the word hate) is the saying-- "a heathy mind means a healthy body." Tell that to a child born with spina bifida or muscular dystrophy, and it is only a short step to--" it is your fault you are not healthy because you must have done something wrong and are being punished (by god)", which is a belief in many cultures.

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#24098 - 10/29/07 08:52 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Ellis asks
Quote:
Rev, do you feel that these moments are evidence of god, or do you see it as part of the oneness of god in everything? Or are they both the same?
I see existence in all its moods as evidence for god. Keep in mind that I think of physical and mental existence as being within god, which I think of as spiritual and immeasurable being.
Quote:
One of my personal pet hates (and I do not often use the word hate) is the saying-- "a heathy mind means a healthy body."
I think of it this way: A healthy mind, or spirit, can help us have a healthier body, if that is possible. However, if fully health is not possible--I have a hearing problem--a healthy mind can give us the patience and courage to live with that we have.

BTW, I do believe the time will come when all, regardless of religious faith, will have the opportunity to live as whole beings without the limititations of pain and suffering. I abhor sectarianism.


Edited by Revlgking (10/29/07 09:09 PM)

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#24126 - 11/03/07 12:13 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Rev said: BTW, I do believe the time will come when all, regardless of religious faith, will have the opportunity to live as whole beings without the limititations of pain and suffering.

That is a lovely thought. Though I do not share it, I can see how it would be comforting to believe that, and gain strength from such belief.

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#24132 - 11/03/07 06:19 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Ellis]
Ea Nassir Offline
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Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 18

In case you see a house with a door, windows, a kitchen, a w.c., a living room, a store, many other rooms, furniture, electric power, ventilation; and it is painted and decorated; will you say this house has been spontaneously built without any builder or owner?
And in case you go to the court and the judge asks you, will you say to him this house has been spontaneously constructed without any builder or owner?
But man is more complex than that house, and he includes more complex systems and organs created with wisdom, and arranged systematically in perfect harmony; how can anyone deny the Creator?

eanassir
http://universeandquran.741.com

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#24133 - 11/03/07 06:24 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Ea Nassir]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Houses are not reproducing organisms. Perceived complexity is irrelevant. Evolution is known to create order and complexity.

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#24137 - 11/03/07 06:41 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Ea Nassir Offline
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Registered: 09/23/07
Posts: 18
Reproducing organisms are more to the side of the Wise Creator. Atheists will not respond to any logical and certain proof; here is the plain example.
But they may say whatever they want to say and insist on their atheism and association; they will die and encounter the chastisement there in the next world of souls immediately following their imminent death; and Hell [when they will see it on the Judgment Day] will they then deny?

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#24138 - 11/03/07 06:46 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, including, [Re: Ea Nassir]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Atheists are presented with "proofs" which are called "strong" and "certain" by people who themselves have very weak logical faculties. Threats from your the imaginary being of your cult are not evidence. Your proofs are non-existent.

Reproducing organisms are not a prior evidence of any kind of creator, wise or otherwise. Like many religionists, you make assertions without justification. This is a science forum. Your cult's handbook is irrelevant except in psychiatric discussions of mass delusion. Certainly it has nothing intelligent to contribute to the subject of origins or, as is painfully obvious to anyone reading your garbage, about comets.

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