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#23347 - 09/02/07 04:14 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
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Fine by me Rev. I don't.

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#23348 - 09/02/07 04:47 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
When it comes to matters of a controversial nature, while it is not always necessary to have absolute agreement, it is always pleasant to have a relative harmony and consensus.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#23354 - 09/03/07 08:54 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
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Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
Redewenur. Sorry for misinterpreting your comments.

You say, "I'm a Fredist, through intuition." Many years ago in NZ someone tried to market a non-alcoholic whisky. Why is beyond me. It was called "Claytons" and their advertising slogan was, "The whisky you have when you're not having a whiskey". This gave rise to a useful expression and Fredism seems to be a Claytons God. Even though Revlgking spells it differently his version is still a Claytons God. So the question arises: even if Fred started it all off has he had any interest in us over the time of our evolution from apes? And if so when did this interest first manifest itself?

Perhaps Revlgking has some ideas on the topic?

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#23355 - 09/03/07 11:56 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Terry

I like the whisky story. In a way, it's a very good analogy since Fred has just about nothing to do with what appear to be the God(s) of most people - to whom I suppose Fred would therefore be as disappointing as a non-alcoholic whisky to an alcoholic.

Terry: "even if Fred started it all off has he had any interest in us over the time of our evolution from apes?"

These are meaningless concepts in Fredism.

OK Terry, I'll stick my neck out and say it the way I see it:

Fredism is about ultimate purpose. What that purpose may be, not even the two heads of Zaphod Beeblebrox could have guessed. Nonetheless, there is the sense of ultimate purpose. Each and every one of the most fundamental units of matter/energy, each moment and every motion, are an essential aspect of the indivisible oneness of all that is, and of its purpose.

I can say only that I have faith in the purpose, and that the purpose is supremely wonderful beyond all imagining.

This is a personal faith, so call it what you like - purposism or something - it makes no difference, and it is independent of approval.

_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#23357 - 09/03/07 09:53 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: redewenur]
Revlgking Offline
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TerryNZ, writes:"Even though Revlgking spells it differently his version is still a Clayton's God".

TNZ, perhaps I (LGK) need to the speak to the topic, WHAT, FOR ME, GØD IS NOT:

1. For me, GØD is not an object, a subject, a person, or anything that can be possessed as such, not even mentally.

2. This means I never use the expression, "My GØD..."

3. This also means I never refer to GØD as a "He", or try to point to "Him".

4. Nor will I say, "GØD hears me, speaks to me, or does this that or the other thing for me, or to me."

CHECK OUT PANENTHEISM. For short I use UNITHEISM
================================================
In my humble opinion, I am ONE with GØD. My theology, unitheism, is not one that is top-down.

While I respect people who think otherwise, for me, there is no father figure, up or out there. I think of GØD simply as the source of all creative knowledge, wisdom and power, which is everywhere present in, through and around the mystery we call the cosmos.

At the same time, my theology is not a a bottom-up one. In my humble opinion, it seems to me that this is the "theology" of materialists, that is, those who think of matter as the ultimate reality. I am reminded of the words of the poet, Swinburne, who wrote: "Glory to man in the highest, for man is the measure of things."

This reminds me of the kind of theology which does value the role of humanity. It is called process theology.

PROCESS PHILOSOPHY AND THEOLOGY AND THE MYSTERY OF CONSCIOUSNESS
================================================================
Consciousness. It is the ability which we, as self-conscious human beings all have when we say, "I am...".

For me, this plays a major role in my theological thinking. IMO, this means that I can be part of all the processes of life and being, including how we will evlove in the future.

As a self-aware being, I am free to choose to connect with GØD as self-evident being and as all-pervasive as gravity. Others are free to choose otherwise. Others are free to believe in God as a heavenly father, or even as a Fred.

As you write: "So the question arises: even if Fred started it all off has he had any interest in us over the time of our evolution from apes? And if so when did this interest first manifest itself?

Perhaps Revlgking has some ideas on the topic?"

Thanks for asking, TNZ.

BTW, IMHO, since GØD already is everything we can possibly imagine-- that is, everything physical, mental and spiritual--GØD did not need to start anything.

As I understand things, it is simply up to me (including us) to come to the consciousness that everything already IS. This means that, if we choose to be moral, ethical and loving persons, we can thus become qualified to become partners in the creative process. What am opportunity!

BTW, we are also free to choose otherwise.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#23638 - 09/27/07 12:28 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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What is Clayton's God?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#23639 - 09/27/07 03:19 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
Posts: 1031
Loc: Whangarei New Zealand
It's the God you have when you're not having a God. Refer to the whisky story above.

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#23643 - 09/27/07 05:24 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Great remembering terry. I remember those ads!!

But why do we even need a Clayton's god?

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#23656 - 09/28/07 12:33 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Ellis]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Genreally speaking, IMO, a god is anything which one feels is of the utmost significance most of the time. There are physical gods, gods of the intellect and, of course, there is, IMO, GØD--the all-encompassing spirituality, which includes that which is physically and intellectually significant at all times, for me.

Perhaps we could ask ourselves the question: Who, what, where, when is most significant for us? Why? And, how does this affect the way we live our lives?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#23671 - 09/29/07 08:37 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
OVER 42,000 CLICKS
==================
Over 42,000 clicks on this thread. Interesting. Obviously a lot of readers are interested in a non-doctrinaire and philosophical approach to religion, theology and the like.

It is my understanding the Sophia, the spouse of It includes 'pneumatology'--the study of the human spirit.

WE ARE PNUEMATOLICAL BEINGS
===========================
As human beings we are not just somatological, that is, physical beings. Nor are we just psychological, that is, mental/intellectual beings--something we share with the animal kingdom, which I respect, greatly. We are also spiritual, or what I like to call, pneumatological beings.

That is, we have the ability to be self-reflective. As pneumatological beings we are capable of being aware of self and others. As such, we are capable of making choices. If we allow the ego--dominated by instincts and feelings--to rule us, the result can be great evil. However, if we choose to join our egos with that of others and seek the greater good for all of us, the result can be great good, for all.


Edited by Revlgking (09/30/07 01:21 AM)
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#23681 - 09/30/07 10:51 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
ABOUT SOPHIA
http://www.angelfire.com/va/goddesses/soph.html
===============================================
The following needs editing:"It is my understanding the Sophia, the spouse of It includes 'pneumatology'--the study of the human spirit."

I like what I found in angelfire
Quote:
Sophia (pronounced sew-fee'ah) in Greek, Hohkma in Hebrew, Sapientia in Latin, all mean wisdom. The Judeo-Christian God's female soul, source of his true power is Sophia. As Goddess of wisdom, her faces are many: Black Goddess, Divine Feminine, Mother of God. The Gnostic Christians, Sophia was the Mother of Creation; her consort and assistant was Jehovah. Her sacred shrine, Hagia Sophia in Istanbul, is one of the seven wonders of the world. Her symbol, the dove, represents spirit; she is crowned by stars, a Middle Eastern icon, to indicate her absolute divinity.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#23688 - 10/01/07 01:54 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
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Registered: 06/08/05
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Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
GØD is useless as a subject of scientific inquiry.

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#23713 - 10/03/07 04:15 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
TFF, you opine:"GØD is useless as a subject of scientific inquiry." I am interrested in know what you mean. Please continue with the dialogue.


_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#23839 - 10/14/07 11:46 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
IMO, TFF, if you will agree with me that GØD is beyond all we can possibly think or imagine, I agree with you when you say, what I feel and think that you are saying: GØD--infinity and eternity--is not an object of scientific study. Science is only interested in that which is measureable.

BTW, this post comes to you from Grande Cache, Alberta. Today is a beautiful, bright and warm October-day, at the foot of the Canadian Rockies. Here, I am visiting my younger sister and family.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#23908 - 10/17/07 08:36 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Currently, the Kings are visiting family members who live in the oil-rich city of Edmonton. We will be flying to Toronto later today. I am pleasantly surprised that most of the adult members of the family are very interested in things spiritual in a metaphysical way which goes beyond the dogmas of most narrow religions.

Currently, I am also reading a book "The DISAPPEARANCE of the UNIVERSE" by Gary R. Renard. It is based on the controversial "Course In Miracles", which I studied in the 1970's. Who of you have you heard of it?

Interestingly, it says that the universe as it appears to us human beings was not created by God, but by us. It is an illusion created by our collective ego.

At this point, I am not sure that I understand all that is involved, but I kind of agree with this point about the nature and creation of things. It fits in with how I conceive of GØD.

Apropos the above, the following news item about the actor, Brad Pitt, was on MSN this AM:
==========================================================

- Brad Pitt shunned religion because "it seemed to be about ego".
==========================================
The 'Ocean's Thirteen' star was brought up a Southern Baptist by his parents in Missouri, but abandoned his faith when he started college and "discovered himself".

Brad told Parade magazine: "I didn't understand this idea of a God who says, 'You have to acknowledge me. You have to say that I'm the best, and then I'll give you eternal happiness. If you won't, then you don't get it!'

"It seemed to be about ego. I can't see God operating from ego, so it made no sense to me.

"When I got untethered from the comfort of religion, it wasn't a loss of faith for me, it was a discovery of self."

...."Whoever said all men are born equal never left his own backyard. I see people everywhere without opportunity. I want to help level the playing field."

The 'Se7en' star is now father to three adopted children, Maddox, six, Pax, three and Zahara, two as well as 16-month-old daughter Shiloh with Angelina.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#23975 - 10/20/07 07:41 AM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Warren Offline
Member

Registered: 04/08/07
Posts: 45
Loc: Paducah, Kentucky
This thread should be published as a book. Insightful and provocative on everyone's part.

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#23982 - 10/20/07 09:25 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Warren]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
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Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Thanks, Warren.

If I remember correctly, you are an artist, right? And speaking of artists, have you heard that this is how Norman Mailer describes GØD? Check out:

http://nymag.com/nymag/features/38961/
======================================
Here is a quote:
THE RISE OF MAILERISM
========================
Norman Mailer’s God, not surprisingly, is a great artist, who created mankind and all the plants and other animals, and could reincarnate them according to his whim. But he was not all-powerful. Because there was the Devil—and the Devil had technology. And lately, the Devil seems to be winning…

* By Norman Mailer & Michael Lennon

In a six-decade career, Norman Mailer has written thirteen novels, nineteen works of nonfiction, two poetry collections, and one play. He’s directed four movies. He ran for mayor of New York, and in the living room of his Brooklyn Heights home, he built, in three weeks, with two friends, a vast Lego city, incorporating some 15,000 pieces, known as the city of the future, seeming to take as much pride in it as in any of his other creations. But even at 84, he has a vast ambition. And now he has created something like a religion. In a new book, On God, a dialogue with one of his literary executors, Michael Lennon, he lays out his highly personal vision of what the universe’s higher truths might look like, if we were in a position to know them. But his theology is not theoretical to him. After eight decades, it is what he believes to be true. He expects no adherents, and does not profess to be a prophet, but he has worked to forge his beliefs into a coherent catechism.

Mailer’s deity is much like Mailer. He or she is an artist—with the stipulation that God is the greatest artist—concerned most particularly with the human soul, but with much else besides. God takes great pleasure in his creations. God is constantly experimenting, and highly fallible. God is far from all-powerful, but is learning along with us. God is in constant struggle with his own fallibility, and also with evil—with the devil—and is not certain whether good will triumph in the end. We are God’s creations, but we are not at all times part of his plan—God may not even be cognizant of all that we do. And if God needs our love, the question Mailer insists has to be answered is, Why?...(There are 7 pages)


_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#23983 - 10/20/07 11:12 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Tim Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 192
Loc: California
"When I got untethered from the comfort of religion, it wasn't a loss of faith for me, it was a discovery of self."

Yeah, I remember reading that Parade article (a few weeks ago, I forget when, but pretty it was pretty recent).
Now that could easily be taken the wrong way, though.

So is there anyone on this thread that would consider themselves 'religious'?

It seems that the term has a negative connotation in some (many?) circles, especially among the high-school and college level. Its 'cool' not to do that kind of stuff in our advanced 21st-century society.
Everything, all past successes, are blamed on something; some idealogy, or religious affiliation, or something. Like the Christian crusades, or the end-of-mideival-time-period religious wars in Europe.
Yes, religion has done good, and yes, it has done bad. Our modernist society focuses on the bad (though perhaps correct) aspects of things, and as a result, we as a culture have lost any sense of mechanical or spiritual or religious unity.

Now is this good, or bad?

*end rant*

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#23984 - 10/20/07 11:17 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Revlgking Offline
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I just finished reading Michael Lennon's conversation with Norman Mailer--the New York Times. In it he asked Mailer questions regarding his views on God, creation, Intelligent Design, the Devil (Satan) as possibly being equal to God, the dark side of life, religion, good, evil, angels, heaven, hell, purgatory, reincarnation, existentialism, and nihilism.

Michael asked Mailer about God's needing us, about the value of ethics, about God's ultimate purpose for his creation.

He asked: Why is it that it seems that God seems to want--not unlike most actors and athletes, crazy military leaders, authors, mad kings, politcians and greed-bag tycoons--to be glorified? Isn't it a dire thing to have an excessive vanity? Is this what God wants?

Mailer suggested: "Maybe we can change "glorified" to "loved". God wants to be loved...God, like us, is doing the best that can be done under the circumstances."

Michael's final comment was: If we are created in God's image and we are potentially good but then choose evil, perhaps we were evil all along.

My (LGK) comment is this: This implies that, as agreed by Mailer: God and the Devil are at war within us.

Here I (LGK) will give Mailer the final word: "...we are here as God's work, here to influence His future as well as ours."

Interesting.
=============
My main critique of Mailer's theology is this: He writes of God, the absolute being, as if he is an anthropomorphic being, a male/female person who is separate and apart from us. For me, this is problematic. GØD, IMO, is not an objective being with a subjective mind.

UNITHEISM/PANENTHEISM
IMHO, I avoid thinking of GØD in this way by using my personal way--feel free to use your own way--of referring to absolute being. I use the term GØD.

GØD refers to that which is total, universal and all-inclusive. At the same time GØD also interpenetrates that which we think of as three-dimensional in nature. To express this same concept, Orthodox Jews use the term G-d. If you have other suggestions they could be just as valid.


Edited by Revlgking (10/21/07 01:15 AM)
Edit Reason: to clarify what I mean
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#23986 - 10/20/07 11:26 PM Re: Philosophy of Religions--all religions, includ [Re: Revlgking]
Tim Offline
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Registered: 08/16/06
Posts: 192
Loc: California
"If we are created in God's image and we are potentially good but then choose evil, perhaps we were evil all along."

Hum, that view could be problematic, too.
But maybe it doesnt matter, because we can't go back and choose the un-evil, whatever that is. That does not mean we were evil all along, it could have been just at that point in time; before we couldnt have been choosing that evil, nor after.

"God" and "the devil" could not be at war within us, even the Christian religion does not say that. I dont know much about Dualism, other than it says something like that, but is ultimatley flawed.



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