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Terry

"The problem remains that even Fredism doesn't actually explain anything. We don't know how it all started except to say that, "Fred did it".

- Yes, you're repeating what I said: "Atheists tend to find Fredism uninteresting because it gets them no closer to understanding the first cause. This is a scientifically valid perspective which leads them to declare of Fredism, incredulously, "Wow, that's useful!" "

To which I reply that Fredism, unlike science, does not seek an answer about "how" it all started, and the concept of an all-pervading unity and purpose makes the objection irrelevant to the Fredist:

"It allows them to conceptualise - based upon their experience, and however vaguely - an actual first cause, lying at the 'point' of infinite regression , i.e. in absolute transcendence, that necessarily determines the purpose of all else. They therefore have what one might call a specific and ultimate spiritual 'location' or 'being' for all that they see as having real value."

The objection is raised from the scientific sphere. However, as stated, Fredism is not about how it all started in scientifically explicable terms - that, I maintain, will never be known. Fredism is 'intangible' to science, yet although a metaphysical hypothesis, it conforms to scientific reality. The only deviation is faith. The faith exists in the belief that the hypothesis is true.

"Regarding another point you make. "A God hypothesis clearly does matter to vast numbers of people because it does, equally clearly, have a very great influence on their lives". Is that statement correct?"

- Well, I think so (it's most noticeable in fundamentalism), but what kind of influence will of course depend, among other things, upon what kind of hypothesis they hold.

"A God hypothesis may provide some meaning to their life..."
- For many people, I think it most certainly does. There is certainly a huge database for scientific investigation on the subject. But, there are so many hypotheses, and I'm trying to stick to Fredism here.

"...but probably hardly alters it from any external perspective."
- I think that's both a matter of conjecture and a generalisation that would be hard to substantiate.


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"A God hypothesis may provide some meaning to their life..."

Why would a God hypothesis give a meaning to life that was more relevant than the fact of life itself? For the atheist the rejection is of the supernatural invisible 'other'- whether it is called Fred, God, The Invisible Rhinoserus or any other manifestation of the divine- is life affirming, because all life is it's own reason for being.

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RECENT FRONT-PAGE NEWS ABOUT MOTHER TERESA'S LOST OF FAITH
=========================================================
I wrote the editor the following item:
======================================
Regarding your front-page story (Saturday, August 25) about mother Teresa's
self-confessed lack of faith, which is only now coming to the light of
day:

Keep in mind that, despite the billions of prayers offered by her, the
Pope, and the millions of Christians and other religions, we all
continue to be surrounded by much poverty, pain, suffering and death.
No wonder she developed feelings of despair. It is quite
understandable. For similar reasons, I , the seventh child in a family
of eight (five boys and three girls) went through a similar crisis of
faith, in my early teens.

THE CAUSE OF MY CRISIS OF FAITH
===============================.
The cause? By the time I was five, I had experienced the death of my
eldest brother, my sister, her husband, her two children and my
mother. My father died when I was fourteen,, leaving my younger
sister and I in the care of four older siblings. Many other families
in our mining town, of over ten thousand people, suffered similar
losses. I remember that one mine-explosion killed twenty miners. It
seems that none of the many prayers offered in the many funeral
services, and church services, petitioning God for help did much good.

In addition to the above, Bell Island was directly involved in World
War II. In 1942, enemy U Boats attacked our island, twice, and sank
four ore carriers, causing a heavy loss of life. In addition, the
church-operated school, which I attended, burned to the ground when I
was fifteen; Even when, in 1945, an uncertain peace finally came,
stories of the holocaust, and other dreadful stories of what went on
during the war came to the surface. There was also the fear of more
wars breaking out.

As I matured enough to ask questions, the above, plus the knowledge
which I was got from my high school studies, influenced me to question
the teachings I got about there being an all-powerful and all-loving
God and Heavenly Father ready and willing to answer all our prayers
for help and "deliver us from evil". I kept asking, when?

Looking back, I remember that for a short time I almost did become an
atheist. I ask myself: What was it that prevented me from doing so? My
explanation is this: Around the time I was old enough to think, I came
under the influence of a caring minister, teachers at the school, and
a wise Sunday-school teacher. When I expressed my concerns, not one
ever told us to fear God and keep silent. All encouraged me and others
to think for ourselves, keep on asking questions and to accept that
there is nothing wrong with honest doubt, as long as we did not give
in to a bitter cynicism. It was with this frame of mind that I went
off to university at seventeen.

I LEARNED TO BE FREE TO BELIEVE THAT WHICH IS RATIONAL
=====================================================
Again, in university I, fortunately, met some wise teachers. In the
major studies of philosophy, psychology, theology, etc., we were
taught that it was not necessary to have a blind, fixed and dogmatic
faith in a human-like God dwelling in a distant Heavenly Kingdom.
Instead, we were encouraged to have a pragmatic, science-based and
sighted faith--one which, while it may go beyond reason, need never go
contrary to it. I learned that a blind faith is not worth believing;
that it is possible to think of God, not as a three-dimensional being,
but as that which is in and through all things, including the
microcosm (atoms and molecules) and the macrocosm (the cosmos).

BEYOND THEISM and ON TO PROCESS THEOLOGY
===========================================
Later research led me to the discover process philosophy and theology.
It was the work of the great mathematician, Alfred North Whitehead
(1861 - 1947). http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/whitehead/
His theology led me to what some thinkers call 'panentheism' (not to
be confused with pantheism).

GØD AS GOODNESS, ORDER AND DESIGN
To avoid confusion, I like to call it 'unitheism', which sees GØD
(Note the way I spell God.) not as a being, but as the oneness of all
being--total, universal and all-encompassing, in which all that is,
including us, exists. We may not understand it all; but how can we
doubt our own being within being itself? Emulating Descartes: We
think, therefore, we are.

THE CAUSE OF MOTHER TERESA'S DESPAIR WAS A BAD THEOLOGY
===========================================================
I suspect that Mother Teresa's despair was no fault of hers. It was
the result of her being taught a bad theology--one that dogmatically
advocated she have a blind faith in traditional theism. She was enough
of a thinker not to accept the belief in an objective,
three-dimensional and personal god with a subjective mind. The despair
came because there was a conflict between her desire to please he
"superiors" and, at the same time, use her rational mind.

In the light of the above, what can we hope? As one who accepts the
principles of process theology, I believe that it is possible that
there is life beyond the physical death of the body. Because of this,
I also believe there will be the opportunity for all of us, including
people like Mother Teresa, to, sooner or later, develop a rational and
sighted faith and live with peace of mind. I am very thankful that my
opportunity came sooner.

Rev. L. G. King
================
PS ABOUT, Mother Teresa's Crisis of Faith:
Check out http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1655415,00.html?cnn=yes


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Ellis:

"Why would a God hypothesis give a meaning to life that was more relevant than the fact of life itself?...all life is it's own reason for being."

From the fact that life for you and me is "it's own reason for living" it doesn't follow that it is so for everyone, as you'll no doubt have noticed. It's very easy, surrounded by all the best material comforts and amenities that 21st century science and technology have to offer, to forget that there are more than a few others in the world whose view of certain harsh realities is less obscured.

Furthermore, very many people in the rich west also appear to find life without God to be an intolerable concept. Who are we, truthfully, to take a superior and frequently contemptuous tone in asserting that they are wrong and we are right?

I should point out that I'm refering to the unadorned 'Fred' concept here, not a system of beliefs involving blatant contradiction to established, provable fact.


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Redewenur wrote:

"Furthermore, very many people in the rich west also appear to find life without God to be an intolerable concept. Who are we, truthfully, to take a superior and frequently contemptuous tone in asserting that they are wrong and we are right?"

Rede, it's not only in the rich west that people "find life without God to be an intolerable concept". In fact it's interesting to see you are so sympathetic to fundamentalist Islam! What's sauce for the goose is surely for the gander as well. I refer specifically to the second sentence of your quoted comment. Also as far as I'm aware Islam no more involves "blatant contradiction to established, provable fact" than does Christianity.

Revlgking. I note from your brief biography that you (and Mother Tersa) are both examples of people raised with a particular belief finding it impossible to discard that belief. I have no trouble accepting that. I hope you can.

My gripe with the influence of religions is that I believe we cannot make rational decisions concerning our future until we have a rational view of our past. Religion often serves to hamper that rational view.

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Terry: "Rede, it's not only in the rich west that people "find life without God to be an intolerable concept"."

"Furthermore, very many people in the rich west also...". Note the word "also". Seems you missed the point of the previous paragraph:

"From the fact that life for you and me is "it's own reason for living" it doesn't follow that it is so for everyone, as you'll no doubt have noticed. It's very easy, surrounded by all the best material comforts and amenities that 21st century science and technology have to offer, to forget that there are more than a few others in the world whose view of certain harsh realities is less obscured."

Terry: "In fact it's interesting to see you are so sympathetic to fundamentalist Islam!"

Please, Terry! If I thought I didn't know you better...but you know better than that. You also missed the point of my last paragraph:

"I should point out that I'm referring to the unadorned 'Fred' concept here, not a system of beliefs involving blatant contradiction to established, provable fact."

Get you mind off of the fundamentalist track for a moment, Terry. The contempt to which I refer, which should be clear enough from that post and from my previous posts, is of many atheists toward the very principle of theism in even its most "unadorned" form (which, note, I did specify).

Terry: "Also as far as I'm aware Islam no more involves "blatant contradiction to established, provable fact" than does Christianity."

As far as I'm aware, you're right, but what point are you making? Nowhere did I mention religion, but it should be clear that I share your view of it. It's in religion, not in Fredism, that we find that "blatant contradiction to established, provable fact", as you observe:

(Terry) "My gripe with the influence of religions is that I believe we cannot make rational decisions concerning our future until we have a rational view of our past. Religion often serves to hamper that rational view."

This is very true. It has everything to do with religion, and nothing to do with Fredism. The current passionate objections to 'belief in God' have little or nothing to do with Fredism. They are almost entirely objections to religion, and triggered by Islamic terrorism and Christian fundamentalism.


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Since we got Rev's biography here is my 'moment' of recognition. I was extremely ill after my first child was born and she and I were both for a while close to death. Luckily because I live in a first world country I recovered, as did she, unharmed. It was after I recovered that I realised that at no time had I called on God to save her or me, I did not pray, I did not promise I'd be really good for the rest of my life if God would spare me. I did none of the things that are traditionally how people are supposed to react to significant danger of death. When I tried too work out why, I realised that I had thought it would be a waste of time because I did not believe in God and I had to acknowledge I was indeed an atheist! I have heard Christians declare that in danger everyone calls on God,.. I didn't.

It was this experience that coloured my view about the belief in God adding meaning to life--maybe it does, and that's good. I do not feel superior, I just get the meaning of my life from the fact of life itself. And Rede, not a spectacular life just a very ordinary 'being alive', it's a great feeling.

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Ellis

"...I just get the meaning of my life from the fact of life itself. And Rede, not a spectacular life just a very ordinary 'being alive', it's a great feeling."

Yes, I'm in the fortunate position of being able to agree. But let's remember that having particular opinions regarding the metaphysical give no one exclusive claims to truth beyond the evidence of science. Fred may or may not be behind all that exists. Some say yes, some say no. Science has nothing to say.


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We are then in agreement Rede. My personal experienence should not and does not influence others, but this attitude is not shared by those who seek to spread their faith. Often I envy their absolute conviction that they have the story on the meaning of life, and somethng other than themselves to blame for bad fortune, but I cannot share it--- and apparently neither did Mother Theresa for a substantial portion of her life. Fred is just another comforting proposition, even I recoil from the acknowledgemant of the truth- that it is just random chance that anything exists anywhere!

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Ellis: "even I recoil from the acknowledgemant of the truth- that it is just random chance that anything exists anywhere!"

Truth? Are you sure? If so so then we are not in agreement that "Fred may or may not be behind all that exists". Not that it matters if we agree, but it's interesting to resolve the viewpoints.




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OK I noticed that and thought you may let me sneak it through!!!

Maybe I could write---Likely truth? Probable reality?

Truth-- no of course I'm not sure,... but Fred seems like God/Lite. And, you are right, it doesn't matter- though I thought we were agreeing on something!! Hooray!!


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God/Lite! That's a good one, Ellis...well, OK, if you think so. But I think it's unassailable. However one rates the probabilities, there can never be a jot of valid scientific argument either for or against it. So much for the atheist v theist conflict.


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Further to Rev. L. G. King's post "RECENT FRONT-PAGE NEWS ABOUT MOTHER TERESA'S LOST OF FAITH" (#23273 - 2007-08-27, above)

Rev: "THE CAUSE OF MOTHER TERESA'S DESPAIR WAS A BAD THEOLOGY"

Quite possibly - or perhaps it was melancholia (endogenous depression), which doesn't appear to require any external trigger. That's certainly enough to take the joy out of life, faith or no faith.

Here's an article by Sam Harris that includes related comments:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sam_harris/2007/08/the_sacrifice_of_reason.html


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Ready-When-You-Are: You mention, "melancholia (endogenous depression)"

You have raised what I consider to be a very important topic; one in which I am very interested. Depression has been called the "common cold" of mental disease. Would you like to start a thread on the topic? Or could we discuss it here?


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Rev, off the the top of my head, I don't have content lined up. If you do, then by all means go ahead and start a thread. Since it would be medical science\psychiatry\depression\melancholia, I'd suggest the General Discussion forum.


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Ready, keep in mind that I happen to feel, and believe that: Most diseases, especially mental diseases, are rooted in what I call the pneuma, or human, factor. That is, the spiritual or self-awareness we happen to have.

INHO, we are the only animal-like beings who give ourselves nervous breakdowns. Have you ever pondered: How come? and, Why?

BTW, refresh my memory: What is your stand on theism?

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Rev, if you wish to discuss 'health and healing in relation to the pneuma', then perhaps NQS would be suitable; though SAGG may arguably be the wrong place altogether, but that's a Mod issue.

I'm a Fredist, through intuition.


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Fredist? Is Fred related to Wilbur, of "Blame it on Wilbur" fame? (WW 2). Years ago, we could also sing, "Place the blame on Mame..." smile

Regarding the importance of "pneuma"--an essential component of human nature: IMHO, there can be no healthy soma component, and psyche component without a healthy pneuma.
=========================================
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/Page/document/v5/templates/hub?searchText=+Anne+Mcilroy&searchVideo=false&searchDatePreset=all&searchDateType=searchDateRange&FromDay=01&FromMonth=01&FromYear=2000&ToDay=26&ToMonth=08&ToYear=2007&sort=sortdate%2Csorttime&x=15&y=9&hub=Search&searchType=Advanced&from_date=&to_date=&start_row=1&current_row=1&start_row_offset1=0 PAGE A1, August 26, 2007:
NEED HELP GETTING OUTSIDE YOURSELF? Researcher replicates out-of-the-body in the lab.

Dr. Henrik Ehrsson, using electronics and working at the University of London, has found a way to deliberately induce the out-of-body sensation. People actually feel that they are standing behind themselves and watching their own backs.

Surveys suggest that as many as one in ten have had a similar experience. People who have this experience usually report that it happened as part of a traumatic and sometimes painful event, such as a car accident. I remember having one. It was when I was a child, and very ill. I call this human ability--this ability to go outside the body and the mind--the spiritual, or pneumatological, ability.

The important point of this post is this: If we can believe it, certain serious researchers are now demonstrating that this phenomenon can be duplicated, electronically.

Last edited by Revlgking; 09/01/07 11:56 PM.

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If you have a traumatic event and are near death it is likely that you will be under the influence of medical procedures- drugs, anaethetics or perhaps electronics and the euphoric effects of extreme pain. An 'out of body' experience would not be uncommon in these circumstances I would think. It is not 'spiritual' however, but induced by the agents above, though I understand how a religious person could explain it as a mystic experience.

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Quote:
An 'out of body' experience would not be uncommon in these circumstances I would think.

It is not 'spiritual' however, but induced by the agents above, though I understand how a religious person could explain it as a mystic experience.

So you say! Now, tell us: How do you define spiritual?

I happen to feel that spiritual and material natures are closely related and components of an integrated whole. smile Okay?


Last edited by Revlgking; 09/02/07 04:42 AM.

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