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Please keep in mind, I am not here to "confront", or to convert, anyone; I am here to DIALOGUE--to share thoughts and ideas which in themselves may be poles apart from one another, in the spirit of good will (Agape Love).

BTW, over the years, I have never taken a fixed-position on matters of faith and belief. Sure, I have taken positions, but I have always kept my options open. Circumstances do alter cases.

For example, because of the way I was raised, I used to refer to God as, "You", "He" and "Him", "The Heavenly Father of Jesus"--a kind of masculine and super-being.

Now you all are witnesses to the new way I write the divine name, in my signature. I do this to avoid concretizing GØD. With the help of a scientist, it happened about a year ago. Over the years I have changed my mind about several things, and I probably will make more changes in the future.

If I ever become convinced that all life ends at death--and I am now 77--and that eternal life is a meaningless dream, or vision, I will become an atheist. But I will need to see the hard evidence. Has anyone got any?

Until then I am sure you will grant me the right to believe, to have faith, in what I, in the company of billions of others, feel is a real possibility--that life does extend into the future beyond death.

Of course, atheists have the right to believe otherwise. But, surely, without evidence does it not have to be admitted that it is a matter of BELIEF, OR FAITH? Are atheists able to avoid matters of faith and belief?

Who was it who said: "Consistency is the bugbear of the small mind." smile The Bible says that even God repented, changed his mind.

ABOUT GOOD AND EVIL
CORRECTION: Instead of Isaiah 64:7, it is Isaiah 45:7 where the prophet writes: "I form light and create darkness, I make weal and and create woe, I am the Lord who do all these things." (Revised Standard version. The King James version says, "I create evil..." (I am not a Bible thumper who thinks of it as infallible. I quote it like I would any document.)

THE CHOICE IS OUR TO ACCEPT OR REJECT
We are free to accept or reject the theology that follows:
Judaism, Christianity and Islam all have the same theology of the universe. All three believe there is an ultimate unity to the universe. To this ultimate unity they give the name which we translate as God. I call it GØD.

As my twelve-volume INTERPRETER'S BIBLE (Abingdon) Vol. 5, page 524 puts it: "God is the chief factor in everything that happens, favourable or unfavourable."..."The evil which God creates is not moral but physical, like disaster (cf. Amos 3:6 and 41:23. "Do good or evil.")"

Thankful that I am free to add my own thoughts and to put the above in my own words, generally speaking, because I reject any kind of dualism--Zoroastrian, Greek, whatever--I accept the total unity of the universe, or the cosmos--warts and all.
BTW, in THE REPUBLIC, II, p.379, Plato wrote as a dualist when he said, "God, if he is good, is not the author of all things...of the evil, other causes have to be discovered."

IMHO, dualists, like many theists, (including atheists)--not all--make the error of thinking of what I call GØD as an objective and personal being, separate and apart from us and the cosmos.

The Process Philosophy and Theology of Alfred North Whitehead, and others, IMO, have solved this problem. GØD is in the process of all existence. Human and thinking persons, collectively, are the personal expressions (sons and daughters), if they so choose, of GØD. Jesus declared, "I and the Father (creative power) are one..." In John 17:20, when he said, "That all may be one..." he goes on make known that oneness with God is goal of all humanity, if we choose.
========================00000000000000000=======================

Last edited by Revlgking; 07/19/07 04:39 PM.

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Ready writes--I presume with tongue in cheek: "But, TFF, those tools are central to the rhetoric. Now, according to the above, you've evidently chosen "not to be" and are therefore in "hell", so just be a good atheist and admit to your spiritual, moral and ethical inferiority.

That's the proposition, is it not? - or perhaps I misunderstand the condescending, self-righteous, holier-than-thou forum preachers."

If you are referring to me, yes, you do, misunderstand. I do not think of myself as one of, "...the condescending, self-righteous, holier-than-thou forum preachers" any more than I think all atheists are immoral, closed-minded and dogmatic bigots.

Questions:
BTW, where did I write, or even imply, that atheists are morally and ethically inferior to me? Or that I am a holier-than-thou preacher?

===========================================
To any atheist: With the understanding that you have the right to remain silent, let's clarify things above by asking the following:

In my opinion life is about making choices.
Atheists, I presume you choose "to be" and to live in the now, okay?

But what is your choice regarding living beyond the death of your body?

If, around the time of your death, you were given the choice, would you actually prefer eternal death--that is, non-existence, an eternal dreamless and visionless unconsciousness of the self, and oblivion in the minds of others?

Or, would you choose something else? Given the opportunity, would you like to go on consciously exploring future possibilities? Would you like to be around in the year 3000, and beyond?

THE HELL OF DANTE'S INFERNO IS NOT MY IDEA OF HELL.
BTW, I do not think of "hell" as a place of eternal punishment. I suspect that many people are living in a kind of hell, right now, on this earth. I am willing to do all I can, to help people get out of this kind of hell. And I am willing to work with moral and ethical atheists. I have no time for cynics and hypocrits, of whatever brand.

Last edited by Revlgking; 07/19/07 10:50 PM.

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I can't remember who first said it, but
"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve immortality by not dying."

If it helps you to sleep better or gives you comfort to imagine that "you" as an individual will transcend your own death, that's great. It hasn't got anything to do with science. It's not a scientific opinion - it's not even scientifically relevant.

But I wish you happiness, the same as I wish for everyone else and if that's what it takes, then great.

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Revlgking

As TFF said, "If it helps you to sleep better or gives you comfort to imagine that "you" as an individual will transcend your own death, that's great."

If your dialogues on SAGG are part of what it takes, then so be it. I'll refrain from further comment.
______

TFF
"I don't want to achieve immortality through my work. I want to achieve immortality by not dying."
That was Woody Allen.


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Woody Allen also said about dying: "...I just don't want to be there when it happens." smile

BTW, Some us may die, like what happened at birth, without being aware of what is happening, but, for surely, we will be there. Agreed?

I have done the funeral of quite a few people who died in their sleep--BTW, a good way, to go, IMO, and one, if I had the choice, I would choose.

MY PERSONAL STORY
BTW 2, I grew up, virtually, in third-world conditions, surrounded by the deaths of several family members caused by TB. Until WW 2, which, ironically brought a modicum of prosperity to Newfoundland, most of the people on Bell Island--a mining and fishing town http://www.bellisland.net --lived on the economic edge, especially when the mines layed off workers.

For the record, my oldest brother, born in 1905, died at 25 leaving a daughter my age, now dead. Close to him in age to him, my oldest sister, her husband and her two young children all died. I was about 2 and 1/2. But I remember them. My mother nursed all three, caught TB, and she died when I was 5. My father became ill, not long after that. He died when I was 14, 1944. Health care for the poor, in the days before medicare, was virtually non-existent.

My older six surviving siblings helped raise my sister and me. We were the only two to get an education. The second oldest brother--the head of the family died two years ago. He was 92. My younger sister and I are the only ones left.

I tell these stories to point out that I grew up under no illusion that life is easy and that there is a god who makes life easy for us, automatically.

In 1942, during WW 2,--because of its iron-ore mines--Bell Island was attacked by enemy subs. Sixty-nine young merchant seamen lost their lives, when four iron-ore carriers were sunk near the loading piers and one of the piers was hit by torpedos. After both attacks, I was there and watched many of the bodies brought ashore. I was 12.

IMO, my experiences helped shape what I later came to believe: We have to accept life as it is and take personal responsibility for making it better. There is much more I could say about this, but I will leave it there, for now.

Last edited by Revlgking; 07/20/07 02:22 AM.

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Revlgking: "I tell these stories to point out that I grew up under no illusion that life is easy and that there is a god who makes life easy for us, automatically."

Thank you for a very interesting post. It's often helpful in a discussion to have a broader view of the participants. The lack of such insight is, perhaps, the greatest obstacle to constructive forum debates, and cyber communication in general.


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My mothers 3 oldest siblings died in infancy. My grandmother who lived to 90 never quit grieving for them. Our lives are much improved in many ways, but when life sucks, it sucks.

The good news for those to whom life is unbearable is that it's only temporary. I do not rejoice at the thought of my own death which will probably not be so many years off. I simply try not to think about it. I understand completely that after my death my body will decay, that my molecules will disperse, and everything that makes a "me" will vanish from existence. I am not my molecules. Nor am I my "energy." Rather, I am a particular complex organization. When the organization is gone, I am no longer.

Fortunately, my greatest hope for my life is nearly achieved. My kids know how to fend for themselves. They have each learned nearly all I have to teach them. They will go out into the world and they will work hard, play fair, spread joy, experience, learn, pay attention, think carefully, act responsibly - and if the time comes, they will not let one day pass that they do not let their own children know how much they are loved.

It will be a nice thing to see them do this. Maybe for a while.


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Ready, needless to say, I, too, found your comment, following, most interesting:

"It's often helpful in a discussion to have a broader view of the participants. The lack of such insight is, perhaps, the greatest obstacle to constructive forum debates, and cyber communication in general"

Your post, and the post following, by TFF, begs a very important question: WHAT IS THE BEST WAY FOR US PARTICIPANTS IN FORUMS SUCH AS THIS TO HAVE A TRULY PRODUCTIVE DIALOGUE?

With this is mind, may I ask: Where do you feel we can go from here?

Last edited by Revlgking; 07/20/07 02:05 AM.

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Within the physical realm, I defend the scientific method against all comers. It's the only reliable way to deal with the material universe. There is, of course, vastly more to the universe than can be grasped by our fledgling science, and there's reason to suspect that will always be so, no matter how wonderful future science may become. Well, that's science and its ability to answer the 'how' questions about our home - the universe, the multiverse, whatever it is. What science does not address is the question 'why'.

I've had my own objectively unproveable experiences which have told me, as clearly as any scientific experiment, that there's very much more to spacetime and consciousness than usually meets our awareness. Though such claims may be refuted, that's of no account. I know. That's sufficient.

My limited contribution, for what it's worth, is my unverifiable claim that (1) consciousness, information - can transcend the normally recognised limitations of time and space and that may or may not relate to personal existence beyond the demise of the physical body. (2) Through consciousness itself, without any analysis, there can be glimpsed an infinitely greater 'reality', with profound meaning and purpose. For the moment, I'll borrow Rev's technique and supply a label, i.e. "".

"" is the answer to the question "why".

"" is, eternally. From our perspective, "" encompasses all that has been, is, and ever will be, through the infinity of dimensions and the infinity of universes - and it includes in every detail, every part of you and me, physically and spiritually, eternally.

Perhaps "" is Rev's GØD.

There are, of course, problems involved in any discussion of such things (especially on a science forum!), so it isn't my intention to get into a prolonged and circular debate about it. Mine is yet another rambling interpretation to add to the long list, to categorise, pigeon-hole, and reject. We're only human. We cannot adequately describe that which is ineffable.


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Ready, you mention: "Rev's GØD".

Keep in mind: I do not feel that I possess GØD, or the cosmos; I feel that I am possessed by it, if you get my drift.

I think of GØD as a concept of being in which I live and move, not as an object of being, separate from me.

How else can I say it so that I am understood? Any suggestions?


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TFF, do you have any knowledge as to what way your grandmother's tragic experience affected her, and other members of the family. Did she go to any church?

Last edited by Revlgking; 07/20/07 02:31 AM.

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In saying "Rev's GØD", I refer to your concept. It's like referring to Ptolemy's universe, without implying that it belonged to him.


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Ready, thanks!

Last edited by Revlgking; 07/20/07 02:33 AM.

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Ready comments: "What science does not address is the question 'why'. "

Ah yes! The why, the meaning and the purpose for being.

Such is my primary concern. My secondary concern is this: HOW we can make this meaning practical, in the NOW!
BTW, I am an enthusiastic fan of the scientific method--physically, mentally and spiritually.
==============================================

Last edited by Revlgking; 07/20/07 02:46 AM.

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"TFF, do you have any knowledge as to what way your grandmother's tragic experience affected her, and other members of the family. Did she go to any church? "
She spoke about it, always with tears in her eyes. She cried sometimes. She was a Methodist and attended church every Sunday. She and grandpa gave a lot of money to their church. I liked and respected their pastor who came to my assistance on several occasions when grandma could not take "I don't believe" as an answer. She was sometimes bitchy and manipulative, but down deep she was a truly loving and caring person and most of the time she lived up to the principles she aspired to.

Very often, when I am about to waken, I forget where I am and what has happened. I get up and think to myself, "Boy, these kids of mine are SO amazing! I gotta call grandma and grampa and tell 'em!" Sometimes I'm happy and humming to myself halfway into my shower before it hits me.

I miss them both so badly and yet I know that they are gone. I will never see them again, except in pictures; never talk to them, argue with them; never taste grandma's potato salad or fried liver; never hear grandpa another of his silly jokes or sing one of his hymns.

My rejection of a belief in their immortality is not due to any feeling of malice or that I just don't care. I often *LONG* for this belief and wish that it could be justified intellectually.
I feel happy, though, or at least relieved that my mother is comforted by such a belief, this belief that I am not capable of having. I do not think my mother is an idiot or a weakling because of her belief. I don't even think her belief is unjustified - it's just not justified by correct reasoning or evidence.



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Originally Posted By: Revlgking
My secondary concern is this: HOW we can make this meaning practical, in the NOW!

I see the basis for the solution as being at once simple and hard: meditation. Thoughts, words and deeds proceding from that will be the practical expression of the meaning.
_________

Originally Posted By: TheFallibleFiend
"I don't even think her belief is unjustified - it's just not justified by correct reasoning or evidence.

It seems most likely that she has the required correct evidence within herself. That would provide reason and justification in full measure.


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TFF wrote..
My rejection of a belief in their immortality is not due to any feeling of malice or that I just don't care. I often *LONG* for this belief and wish that it could be justified intellectually.
I feel happy, though, or at least relieved that my mother is comforted by such a belief, this belief that I am not capable of having. I do not think my mother is an idiot or a weakling because of her belief. I don't even think her belief is unjustified - it's just not justified by correct reasoning or evidence.

TFF-My own mother, a person with little religious convinction, but no animosity, now at the age of 95 finds great comfort in the ritual of worship. This is her privilege I suppose-- I asked her why she started this a few years ago, after not going to church for most of her adult life, and she said that though she did not think it did any good really the familiar ritual gave her comfort, and the people were friendly! Seems reasonable I suppose, but scarcely the stuff of convinced conversion. Maybe at what is the end of a busy life well lived she is having a bet each way, and I have your attitude that it is her business and I think no less of her and would not presume to convince her otherwise.

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Revlgking wrote:

"over the years, I have never taken a fixed-position on matters of faith and belief'.

I've noticed. Often adopting different positions within the same post. I remember posting somewhere (I looked but can't find it) something to the effect we're all agreed the Old Testament tells us nothing about any entity that could be called a God. I even remeber you agreed, yet here you go quoting from it.

I've consistently found that the main weapon used by supporters of religion is to keep shifting the goalposts. You can't hold them to anything that they may not be able to squirm out of once the going gets tough.

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Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
...I've consistently found that the main weapon used by supporters of religion is to keep shifting the goalposts. You can't hold them to anything that they may not be able to squirm out of once the going gets tough.
I take no pleasure out of putting anyone in the position where they feel they have to squirm. That would be too mean, don't you agree?

BTW, as I understand it, honest scientists do NOT work from fixed-theories either, right? It seems to me that they always keep their options open for new information. Only dishonest ones fudge the facts to make them fit in with their theory.

BTW 2, you forgot to acknowledge that I did say I DO take positions on certain things. For example, blatant immoral and unethical behaviour is never an option, for me.

ANTHROPOMORPHISMS ARE, ALSO, NOT FOR ME
Until someone one can present me with the evidence--and I am willing to keep an open mind--I refuse to think of GØD anthropomorphically--that is, I refuse to attribute human forms or qualities to GØD, God, gods or things. Very few thinking religionists--Ffrom all the world religions--really think of God in a human-like form. Such is a form of idolatry. Perhaps atheists make the mistake of thinking that all theists believe in physical or mental idols. Do you?

BTW 3, there are many statements in the Old Testament, about God, which indicate that some of the Old Testament writers thought anthropomorphically. For example, Genesis describes "Him" as walking in the Garden of Eden and talking to Adam and Eve.

Check out Exodus 32:14."So the Lord changed his mind and did NOT bring on his people the disaster he had threatened." In 1 Samuel 15:11 God said to Samuel, "I am sorry that I made Saul king; he turned away from me and disobeyed my commands."

BTW 4, just because I quote the OT does not mean that I take it literally. Much of the Bible is metaphoric.


Last edited by Revlgking; 07/21/07 09:44 PM.

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"BTW, as I understand it, honest scientists do NOT work from fixed-theories either, right?"

There's a difference between being open-minded and being stupid. Honest scientists know the difference between conclusions derived from their scientific principles and methods and those that are personal opinions.

The part relating to "fixed-theories" is ambiguous. Scientists are open to new ideas and new data, if not as individuals, then as a collective. That doesn't mean that every stupid pseudo-theory is considered likely.

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