Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion General Science Discussion Forum Data compression beyond law

Hm, but didn't you call the AIDS virus has an "intelligence" equal to that of humans in another thread? Is the AIDS virus's future determined, or does it choose?

The point to my previous post was what influences our own choice. I thought that genetic imperatives would most certainly have an effect of some description. What is worse is that you cannot be sure how much or in what capacity you are being manipulated by genetic encoding.

As far as only considering the "non-deterministic part" in this thread, let me finish by asking you this:

from where do our motivations for "choice" originate?

Considering we know so little about the brain, and how it functions holistically, it is unclear which actions are "non-deterministic" and which parts are not.

Choices originates within us after processing and interpreting all the information for our next thought and action....
Every thought everytime successfully reaches a conslcusion and we move to the next moment of life(which may have 'feel' of thought and/or action).
My question was not to debate the mechanism of Choice or Will Power but a more practicle aspect of it and that is there Any Purpose Behind All the Choices We Are Making...
If we say that there is no purpose then we are left with only one purpose and that is to make choices again and again like a ...

Science doesn't guarantee you'll be satisfied with the answers. From the point of view of a society, it is merely a pedigree.

If there is no absolute standard, that doesn't mean that anything goes. All the religion in the world didn't stop Hitler, Stalin, or Mao. In the end it was allied bombs that stopped Hitler (not the proximate cause, but the primary cause nonetheless), natural death (so far as we know) Stalin and Mao.

Science is a search, but it is a search within limits. The Great Interruption (the dark ages) was caused in part because religionists conflated the search for truth with the search for the way things ought to be.

Science wasn't able to reach its modern fruition until we limited its scope. We realize that there are some things it can't address. We also realize that wishing doesn't make things true.

OK, so since I have been away, no real progress has been made on this topic, so I will take it up from where I left it. Incidentally, and with the risk of being looked at ugly, this is a perfect example of a situation where people make unwarranted parallels stemming only from syntactic similarities.


Q: ?1. What is the bandwitdth of the Universe.?
dkv: ?Infinite, because all the information is infinite and is transmitted to its next state without any loss every second.?

Oh, boy. I love this type of circular arguments. You DON?T KNOW that information is infinite. And you DON?T KNOW that it propagates without loss. This is what you are suppose to investigate. So you use two unsupported statements to justify another unsupported statement. Good one. Try again.

Q:?2. What is the Signal power of the Universe.?
dkv: ?Signal Power of the Universe 1.?

When? And why?

Q: ?3. What is and most importantly what means the noise in this context?
dkv: ?Noise can be assumed to be zero as external Universes are orthogonal to our existence and there is no background noise of information. Therefore the channel capacity is infinite, and this is the reason why it can be compressed.?

Noise does not necessarily come from interaction with other universes. As is, in our Universe you have a lot of interacting phenomena that could produce ?noise?, so before globalizing to ?orthogonal? universes, look in your own backyard. So the question still stands.

dkv: ?Universe can be reduced to an Information Set if we choose proper tools and technology. Therefore the analogy is more close to reality.?

Really? It can? Then please do it first, instead of postulating it. I am most interested in how you reduce a cell to a set of bits!

Q: ?And BTW, what means ?information? when you talk about the universe? ?
dkv: ?Replied above.?

You realize that what you replied here has no value, right? So the question stands.

dkv: ?No can not be called determinism because the unless and until we start compressing the information we can not reach to its smallest form. Going by the classical history "Human Compressors" started this process some 2000 years ago and in those 2000 years we have compressed the universe to the size of an Plank's Radius with initial conditions.?

Well, I am not going to argue this item anymore. What you claim is determinism by the book, so why don?t you look it up? Furthermore, you should also review differential equations, for the simplest case.

The rest of your reply is rather nonsense in the purest from. Sorry for that. Once again you are talking about things you don?t have a clue about. I would suggest reading something more than popular science. If you actually want to consider such issues seriously
dkv: ?I go by my common sense. Look at fractals, complete information is encoded at every level.?

This shows you have a short memory. We already discussed how common sense does not work but in very limited cases, with quantum mechanics as the common counterexample to your conjecture. So try again.

REP: I am writing all this at the runtime .. so please forgive.

And? We all suffer from this minor ailment of having to earn a living. And BTW, don?t try to match nature to your knowledge. One of them is limited. Try the other way around. Try to expand your knowledge to be able to comprehend nature. This is the way it goes.

dkv: ?Google is a good place but there I don?t find enough information?

Wha?? That would be the day. But then, there are also those things called libraries?

dkv: ?Btw Quantum computers will be the natural choice for decompressing the compressed equations of Universe.?

Lovely, isn?t it? Yet another idea you pooped, before finishing the one you started previously. And again, your claim is unsupported, especially since quantum computers will still have finite memories to deal with information that in your view is infinite?Don?t you ever keep track of your reasoning?

Yes, that's right. Your purpose, perhaps some life ambition you consider to be worthy, is based on a combination of life experience and genetics. Like I said, what came before your last choice? The constant interaction between your biological makeup and environmental factors determine your choices. Your choices are filtered through a brain that thinks a particular way, peculiar only to you.

The fact that we don't all think the same way, and that people are capable of original ideas is testament to this. That is, it is not as though all humanity thinks the same way, and we just decide that we will follow this or that profession, for example, just for the hell of it. Our likely professions will reflect our abilities and the way are minds have been constructed both genetically and environmentally.

We are also reflexive creatures, however, so when we are told to do something we may go against our nature and choose another path deliberately, to show autonomy over our own lives. But if you did behave in this way your behaviour would also be a product of what I have already said above.

If you choose a path, you have done so because at some stage in your life you have learned that taking that path has some benefit. The alternate option is to choose at random, but choosing randomly is just as deterministic - if you get my drift.

Yes, that's right. Your purpose, perhaps some life ambition you consider to be worthy, is based on a combination of life experience and genetics. Like I said, what came before your last choice? The constant interaction between your biological makeup and environmental factors determine your choices. Your choices are filtered through a brain that thinks a particular way, peculiar only to you.
REP: we agree.
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The fact that we don't all think the same way, and that people are capable of original ideas is testament to this. That is, it is not as though all humanity thinks the same way, and we just decide that we will follow this or that profession, for example, just for the hell of it. Our likely professions will reflect our abilities and the way are minds have been constructed both genetically and environmentally.
REP: Professions and professionals are diverse but they are limited by their energy levels and types...
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We are also reflexive creatures, however, so when we are told to do something we may go against our nature and choose another path deliberately, to show autonomy over our own lives. But if you did behave in this way your behaviour would also be a product of what I have already said above.
REP: We are not discussing behaviour.
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If you choose a path, you have done so because at some stage in your life you have learned that taking that path has some benefit. The alternate option is to choose at random, but choosing randomly is just as deterministic - if you get my drift.
REP: That was not deterministic..Let me reframe my question
" As I Choose and Reject what is the purpose of me doing such a stupid thing eternally ... I I am in pain why shouldnt I die peacefully... Why wait for medicines.... Can you fight this argument with your "Without-the-Purpose-World"
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Why Should I fear to Die..When ,whatever I have as the real to my existence is existing without any purpose relevant to me...
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Give me my purpose.

I agree with various theories that link a person's genetic composition with their behaviour. In other words, I consider them to be related and, therefore, relevant to this discussion.


I'm not sure I fully understand what you mean in these last responses.

What I mean is simple ....
We have found that we are constantly selecting and rejecting choices and also we have a explaination for doing this ...Every choice has a benfit attached to it...
Now if someone wants to get a benfit out of my death then what should be the criteria for the Law to allow or disallow a particular choice...
Someone may get benefit by stealing my ideas...
Someone may get benefit by murdering me...
Someone may get benefit by making a fool out of me...
There are so many morally and legally wrong options or choices that I want to make a set of choices that I do not violate any moral or legal law...
Both the constitutional Laws and Moral laws are based on certain assumptions...
Example - It is OK to kill for your country ...
It is OK to kill for your relefion...

That was one part of my rephrased question ...
The next question relates to the Purpose of making such "Morally-and-legally-correct" decisions... when in the land of the stars and jungle no such assumptions are found....
Why we are so different from the other animals ...
We left our original branch for some reasons ... what where those reasons and have we solved that reason .. i.e are we going to change again ...
Given our definition of Progress are we going to choose the right Purpose of our Humanity and Life ....
Purpose can defined at cellular level and also at the tissue level....In both cases the purpose appears to be different... but at higher levels it is well known that group of cells had a specific goal to achieve ... Those cells which belong to heart can not choose to act like a brain cell.
The end purpose of group is always well defined and you may disagree with me but we need to find a purpose to be together ... Movies say we will be united against some alien...
But I sy we will be United for common Harmony...