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#21398 - 05/09/07 08:09 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: samwik]
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: samwik
Hiya Revl~
Well, I still stand by what I said above (including about metacognition), but I do agree that we wouldn't be what we are without language; especially it's contributions to our civilizing and socializing processes. You can't communicate using just thoughts, so language is critical. Language facilitates metacognition, like math (statistics) facilitates meta-analyses.
You can read the Bible, and be cognizant of what it says; but to think about what it means (literally, metaphorically, symbolically, etc., is a HNL (whole 'nother level) -metacognition.
I always took, "In the beginning was the word..." to mean that when words came about, it marked the beginning of civilizing and humanizing processes, and recognition of other potentialities (like religion, laws, and science). Words marked the beginning of being human, sapient.

~SA

...just fyi; and now for something only slightly different.


"I think languange causes lots of problems, because of 'misunderstandings.' It's surprising how often two people think they're talking about the same thing, and yet...not (and usually, nobody ever knows). -S.

...and I still stand by that, also.

But Science provides a great benefit by making it easier to know if you're talking about the same thing. It standardizes our thinking and makes it easier to spot misunderstandings. The language of religions does not seem to help in this area.

BOT

~SA
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

Top
.
#21402 - 05/09/07 05:23 PM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: samwik]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
John 1, in NT Greek, begins, "'Aen archae 'aen h'o logos..." Obviously, we get our word 'archaic' from the Greek. From 'logos' comes logic. It is also used at the end of all our words ending in 'logy'.

For example, 'geology' means the study, or science, of the 'ge', earth. We also gets words like 'somatology'--study of the human body; psychology--study of the mind (in the over-all animal sense of mind), and pneumatology--study of the human spirit. Study always involves the use of the scientific approach.

How important it is to use words in a positive and loving. Real communication can often make the difference between life and death. Used lovingly, they can bring light and prosperty to a situations filled with despair. Used hatefully, they can, like bad religion, poison everything.

It is no accident that the root meaning of 'community' means a place where we can be munificent and share our gifts with (com) one another.

_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#21404 - 05/09/07 06:52 PM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Revlgking]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
This is simply philosophy and religion.

This board is essentially about science. 'Not quite science' does not mean 'No scientific content at all'. Pneumatology is not science - it makes psychology look like hard science.

Rev - you don't seem to realize that when you come here to propagate your philosophy it is seen by some here as rude. People come here, in the main, to discuss and learn about science - not to be preached to. You bring religion into disrepute by inappropriately evangelizing here.

This criticism may seem strange coming from a Christian, but I do not instigate discussion on religion - I only respond when someone else criticizes religion. This is done out of respect and you should do the same if you remain here, but I know for a fact that you are only here to expose others to your beliefs.

Blacknad.

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#21405 - 05/09/07 09:58 PM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Blacknad]
Anonymous
Unregistered


Hello.

Forgive me if I am in the wrong forum. I'm trying to discuss the "vanishing" or "lost" honeybees. I absolutely don't claim to have all the answers, but I'm trying to be a part of a solution. My thoughts may seem "out there" to many, but it's at least something other than "let's fund the researchers and throw away our cell phones." Please visit my website:

www.saveabeeaday.com

Thank you for your time.


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#21406 - 05/09/07 10:47 PM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: ]
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Hiya KS,
There is a Topic on Vanishing Honeybees on the General Science forum. You should read it through (only a couple of pages); it doesn't sound as if cell phones are related in any way (don't know if that's good or bad news!).

Please feel welcome to look over some of the topics on the Climate Change forum also (just for interest -nothing about bees, yet!).

~samwik
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#21409 - 05/09/07 11:33 PM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: samwik]
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
"'Aen archae 'aen h'o logos..."
I like the 'logos' even better than 'word,' in terms of what I said above, about that phrase.

Anyway, I do understand how the language of religion provides lots of comfort, joy, "light and prosperity" to those who know the language.

My point in saying religion doesn't help communication (like science does) was in terms of communication between religions; between large groups or cultures even.

Science does have its problems (as when they input English measurements into a program designed for Metric - and loose a Mars probe).

Seen from the outside religions all seem to be saying the same thing, but each religion also seems to define other religions out of the picture. It's like many foreign languages; they may say the same thing, but usually everyone acts as if languages other than their own are just nonsense (or worse, anathematic).

On Topic,
I feel one of the main hinderances to Science being [more of] the Answer, is a similar problem.

Scientists talking to the general public is almost like two different religions trying to talk to one another.

A lifelong interest of mine (since college) was the problem of the chasm between sciences and humanities (in education); and bridging that chasm. In recent years, interest in the problems with the public's perception of science has evolved from that initial interest.

Language is a big part of that problem. Lately I've been toying with the idea of visiting churchs as a "guest lecturer," mainly to talk about climate change and stewardship (the new buzzword).
This thread has helped me see that I'd need to talk about science in general also (and evolution too; yikes!). smile

Thanks,
~~Samwik
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#21411 - 05/10/07 01:23 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: samwik]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Blacknad writes
Quote:
This criticism may seem strange coming from a Christian, but I do not instigate discussion on religion - I only respond when someone else criticizes religion.

This is done out of respect and you should do the same if you remain here, but I know for a fact that you are only here to expose others to your beliefs.

What do you prefer? Would you prefer I spend my time telling people what I do NOT believe?

BTW, where is your "fact" about my intentions?

You say that "Pneumatology is not science".

What is your science (evidence) for making such a statement? My dictionary says that it IS an archaic term for psychology. If you are a Christian, I presume you believe that there is such a thing as spirit. Is it beyond the pale of study (science)?
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#21412 - 05/10/07 01:58 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Blacknad]
Revlgking Offline
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Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Blacknad
....Rev - you don't seem to realize that when you come here to propagate your philosophy it is seen by some (HOW MANY? LET US DO A SURVEY AND FIND OUT THE FACTS.) here as rude.

People come here, in the main, to discuss and learn about science - not to be preached to. You bring religion into disrepute by inappropriately evangelizing here....Blacknad.
Can you demonstrate, with fact, your accusation--which I feel is rude--is based on any proveable and scientific fact? smile

Now, tell us about this "Christianity" of yours, I am very interested. But first, read Matt. 7: "Judge not..." And I Corinthians 13--Paul's great poem on the meaning of agape/love.
_________________________
G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org

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#21417 - 05/10/07 06:46 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Revlgking]
Amaranth Rose II Offline

Superstar

Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 962
Loc: Southeast Nebraska, USA
People come here expecting Science. Not religion, nor any discussions of god, however you wish to spell it. Psychology by any other name would stink as much. Please refer to the introductory paragraph in the sign-on screen.

Amaranth
_________________________
If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose


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#21424 - 05/10/07 09:00 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Revlgking]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Blacknad writes
Quote:
but I know for a fact that you are only here to expose others to your beliefs.


BTW, where is your "fact" about my intentions?


Rev,

Please see the thread I am starting here:

http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21425&page=1#Post21425

Or you could ask yourself the following questions:

How many science articles or sites have you linked to since you have been here?

How many times have you linked to your Pathways Church site and many other related sites all propagating your religion?

I really need to go no further, but I will - see my thread.

Rev - please don't think I am angry at you. I just think that what you are doing is inappropriate and shows a lack of understanding of the terms (and focus) of this site. If you do understand the terms then you are showing disrespect to the owners and users here.

Blacknad.

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#21426 - 05/10/07 10:15 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Revlgking]
Blacknad Offline
Superstar

Registered: 10/05/05
Posts: 901
Loc: Coventry, England
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Now, tell us about this "Christianity" of yours, I am very interested. But first, read Matt. 7: "Judge not..." And I Corinthians 13--Paul's great poem on the meaning of agape/love.


I have spoken about my Christianity in response to general criticisms here – but only in defence when people are attacking it. I am not shy of attacking the church myself. I think it is acceptable to respond if people bring up the subject in the first place. It is not acceptable to come here and do nothing but propagate it.

As for me reading the verses – I am familiar with them and do not need to be quoted at. I dislike it when people use Bible verses to try and constrain people’s behaviour – especially when it is used in an attempt to turn attention away from unacceptable behaviour.

I am not judging you – I am simply stating the truth – it should be something you are appreciative of.

http://www.scienceagogo.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=21425&page=1#Post21425

Blacknad.

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#21429 - 05/10/07 12:48 PM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Blacknad]
TheFallibleFiend Offline
Megastar

Registered: 06/08/05
Posts: 1940
Loc: http://thefalliblefiend.blogsp...
Rev,
Blacknad is right. You're not talking about science. I have not seen one post of yours yet that was science related.

Words change their meanings. Philosophy and theology and science all used to be different sides of the same subject. No more. Things have broken apart - for a reason. Modern science may include parts of psychology, but it doesn't include Pneumatology. Science does not study spirits. Spirits are beyond science. Science does not mean just "study." It means a particular kind of study on a particular area.

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#21432 - 05/10/07 02:00 PM Re: Is Science the answer?
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Blacknad
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Now, tell us about this "Christianity" of yours, I am very interested. But first, read Matt. 7: "Judge not..." And I Corinthians 13--Paul's great poem on the meaning of agape/love.

Originally Posted By: Ellis
The aquisition of language and its use in communication are things that we take for granted and we really shouldn't.

[quote]Ellis asked whether "the aquisition of language is necessary to achieve what is described as meta-cognition?".

Originally Posted By: Blacknad
I havespoken about my Christianity in response to general criticisms here &#150; but only in defence when people are attacking it. I am not shy of attacking the church myself. I think it is acceptable to respond if people bring up the subject in the first place. It is not acceptable to come here and do nothing but propagate it.

As for me reading the verses &#150; I am familiar with them and do not need to be quoted at.................>

Blacknad.


Thank goodness for Ellis, he hit the'nail on the head' when he made the two quotes above, about the use of language.

What needs to be made clear is,...which language?

I cannot understand how anybody, and I am refering to Revking here...how can you have a proper logical discussion regarding
whether "Science is the Answer"....by adding quotations from an ancient Biblical language, into a modern English science format?

What is basically a two language mixture is causing language frustration where the final results are always less meaningful, with no clear final outcome, as an answer.

The ancient Hebrews or Babyloneans in using their language could discuss religion, warfare, food production and human living, all with perfection. (There are no swear words in the Bible)
Few, if any, could discuss the 'Sciences', which was probably filed under magic, or similar.

If you want to discuss only the sciences today, one would use German, and excellent technological language, or English, or even modern Hebrew. (In that order)
The Israelis realised long ago, that they could never compete in the modern world unless they updated the Hebrew language. They have been doing this on a daily basis continuously for over 50 years. Pick up a modern Hebrew dictionary, and check out the mathematic, chemical, technical words in it today. You would be surprised. They comprise over 70% of modern Hebrew words now.

Yes I know most of their technical papers are written in English, but even English borrows technical words from the German. Modern Hebrew borrows from both. Look up some of their scientific achievement sites. This is a simple one:-
http://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/site/HE/homepage.asp

Which is why I cannot understand how anyone can put over a scientific point by mixing ancient quotes from the Bible with a modern language, in trying to put over a scientific point.
It just dosn't work.
The language from the Bible is perfect for Religious discussion, not for Science





Edited by Mike Kremer (05/10/07 02:46 PM)
_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#21434 - 05/10/07 02:58 PM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Mike Kremer]
Mike Kremer Offline

Megastar

Registered: 10/16/04
Posts: 1696
Loc: London UK
Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer
Originally Posted By: Blacknad
Originally Posted By: Revlgking
Now, tell us about this "Christianity" of yours, I am very interested. But first, read Matt. 7: "Judge not..." And I Corinthians 13--Paul's great poem on the meaning of agape/love.

Originally Posted By: Ellis
The aquisition of language and its use in communication are things that we take for granted and we really shouldn't.

[quote]Ellis asked whether "the aquisition of language is necessary to achieve what is described as meta-cognition?".

Originally Posted By: Blacknad
I havespoken about my Christianity in response to general criticisms here &#150; but only in defence when people are attacking it. I am not shy of attacking the church myself. I think it is acceptable to respond if people bring up the subject in the first place. It is not acceptable to come here and do nothing but propagate it.

As for me reading the verses &#150; I am familiar with them and do not need to be quoted at.................>

Blacknad.


Thank goodness for Ellis, he hit the'nail on the head' when he made the two quotes above, about the use of language.

What needs to be made clear is,...which language?

I cannot understand how anybody, and I am refering to Revking here...how can you have a proper logical discussion regarding
whether "Science is the Answer"....by adding quotations from an ancient Biblical language, into a modern English science format?

What is basically a two language mixture is causing language frustration where the final results are always less meaningful, with no clear final outcome, as an answer.

The ancient Hebrews or Babyloneans in using their language could discuss religion, warfare, food production and human living, all with perfection. (There are no swear words in the Bible)
Few, if any, could discuss the 'Sciences', which was probably filed under magic, or similar.

If you want to discuss only the sciences today, one would use German, and excellent technological language, or English, or even modern Hebrew. (In that order)
The Israelis realised long ago, that they could never compete in the modern world unless they updated the Hebrew language. They have been doing this on a daily basis continuously for over 50 years. Pick up a modern Hebrew dictionary, and check out the mathematic, chemical, technical words in it today. You would be surprised. They comprise over 70% of modern Hebrew words now.

Yes I know most of their technical papers are written in English, but even English borrows technical words from the German. Modern Hebrew borrows from both. Look up some of their scientific achievement sites. This is a simple one:-
http://wis-wander.weizmann.ac.il/site/HE/homepage.asp

Which is why I cannot understand how anyone can put over a scientific point by mixing ancient quotes from the Bible with a modern language, in trying to put over a scientific point.
It just dosn't work.
The language from the Bible is perfect for Religious discussion, not for Science



_________________________
.

.
"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.



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#21437 - 05/10/07 05:40 PM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Mike Kremer]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
This post touches on few of the above points, i.e., philosophy, science, religion, culture and language (of science).

Two quotes from Carl Sagan's 'Cosmos' (1982):

"The last scientist who worked in the Library [of Alexandria] was a mathematician, astronomer, physicist and the head of the Neoplatonic school of philosophy - an extraordinary range of accomplishment for any individual in any age. Her name was Hypatia...Cyril, the Archbishop of Alexandria, despised her because of her close friendship with the Roman governor, and because she was a symbol of learning and science, which were largely identified by the early church with paganism. In great personal danger, she continued to teach and publish, until in the year 415, on her way to work she was set upon by a fanatical mob of Cyril's parishioners. They dragged her from her chariot, tore off her clothes, and, armed with abalone shells, flayed her flesh from her bones. Her remains were burned, her works obliterated, her name forgotten. Cyril was made a saint."

- I quote that because it highlights two points. The first is that religion, contrary to its teaching and as everyone alive today may witness, frequently leads to such deeds. The second is that very many people even in today's sophisticated societies, 1600 years after the murder of Hypatia, apparently continue to see science as a threat to their religion.

"Through technological advances in communication our planet is in the final stages of being bound up at a breakneck pace into a single global society. If we can accomplish the integration of the Earth without obliterating cultural differences or destroying ourselves, we will have accomplished a great thing."

- Science has the potential that religion clearly lacks, to be a unifying force across cultural boundaries. Its language is universal. Science is providing the bedrock of an ethically advanced society based on genuine mutual insight. The insight and the spiritual benefits are not the science or the technology, but rather an indirect product.
_____________________

Off topic quote of the day.

Re: quantum physics: -

"research is so exciting – unpredictable things keep happening all the time.”

Professor Serge Haroche, Collège de France.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#21440 - 05/10/07 06:19 PM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: redewenur]
Wolfman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
Good post, rede.

Ever since I was in Grade School, and I read about "The Dark Ages", it's bothered me how Religion has tried to stifle Science. Think of where we might be right now if we hadn't spent 500 to 800 years under the Iron Glove of "The Church" in Europe.

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#21449 - 05/10/07 09:54 PM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Wolfman]
Revlgking Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/17/07
Posts: 2311
Loc: markham (Thornhill), Ontario, ...
Originally Posted By: Wolfman
Good post, rede.

Ever since I was in Grade School, and I read about "The Dark Ages", it's bothered me how Religion has tried to stifle Science. Think of where we might be right now if we hadn't spent 500 to 800 years under the Iron Glove of "The Church" in Europe.


Wolfman, are you saying that all religious leaders tried to stifle science? Come now, tell the truth. The truth is certain SICK religionists tried to stifle science.

Keep in mind that many of the early scientists, including Copernicus, were also clergy. Galileo remained faithful to his spiritual beliefs, despite being persecuted by obscurants and bigots around him. Blame the bigots, not the church. Sir Isaac Newton was very devout in matters of religion. J.B. Priestly, the co-discoverer of oxygen was a minister. Gregroire Mendel, the founder of genetics, was a monk. And there are many others.

How do you account for the above?

FOR SCIENCE'S SAKE, TELL THE TRUTH. And keep in mind: Half truths are the same as lies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_religion_and_science
http://www.religioustolerance.org/sci_rel.htm

EINSTEIN AND GOD
We cannot ignore the fact that Einstein did not ignore rational religion.
http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/

The bigotry of non-believers and atheists also irked him:
http://www.einsteinandreligion.com/atheism.html
In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human understanding, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.

— Prince Hubertus zu Löwenstein, Towards the Further Shore (Victor Gollancz, London, 1968), p. 156; quoted in Jammer, p. 97

Wolfman, my early education was in a church-operated school in Newfoundland. My teachers taught me to respect and love science. I almost became and engineer. When I entered the church, I took this scientific attitude with me.

BTW, I will be very disappointed to find that some so called open-minded scientists--how many do we have in this forum?--can be just as narrow as some religious bigots.



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#21456 - 05/11/07 12:46 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Wolfman]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Originally Posted By: Wolfman
Ever since I was in Grade School, and I read about "The Dark Ages", it's bothered me how Religion has tried to stifle Science. Think of where we might be right now if we hadn't spent 500 to 800 years under the Iron Glove of "The Church" in Europe.

Yes, indeed, and let's consider the many Greek scientists and thinkers (or natural philosophers as they were called, even in Newton's day): Thales, Pythagoros, Democritus, Plato, Aristotle, Aristarchus, Eristothenes...and so many more. Why were there so many? Here's a suggestion:

"There seems to be no good reason why the Hellenes, clustered in isolated city-states in a relatively poor and backward land, should have struck out into intellectual regions that were only dimly perceived, if at all, by the splendid civilizations of the Yangtze, the Tigris and Euphrates, and the Nile valleys. There were many differences between ancient Greece and the other civilizations, but perhaps the most significant was religion. What is striking about Greek religion, in contrast to the religions of Mesopotamia and Egypt,is its puerility. Both of the great river civilizations evolved complex theologies that served to answer most, if not all, of the large questions about mankind's place and destiny. Greek religion did not."

- Encyclopaedia Britannica 2005
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#21464 - 05/11/07 04:46 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: samwik]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
I'm just repeating a post from earlier; hoping this thread might explore the direction of language, and how it's used.

An interesting Topic might me etymology...maybe later.

Quote: ~samwik
Seen from the outside religions all seem to be saying the same thing, but each religion also seems to define other religions out of the picture. It's like many foreign languages; they may say the same thing, but usually everyone acts as if languages other than their own are just nonsense (or worse, anathematic).

On Topic,

I feel one of the main hinderances to Science being [more of] the Answer, is a similar problem.

Scientists talking to the general public is almost like two different religions trying to talk to one another.

A lifelong interest of mine (since college) was the problem of the chasm between sciences and humanities (in education); and bridging that chasm. In recent years, interest in the problems with the public's perception of science has evolved from that initial interest.

Language is a big part of that problem. Lately I've been toying with the idea of visiting churchs as a "guest lecturer," mainly to talk about climate change and stewardship (the new buzzword).
This thread has helped me see that I'd need to talk about science in general also (and evolution too; yikes!).

Thanks,
~~Samwik


So...a bit TMI, but the motive of trying to reach people is there.

Explaining the terms!

We say 'Evolution' and of course we all know what that means around here.

But wait! I can already see from the fascinating posts recently that we do have different ideas, even among ourselves.

I find the best way to explain things to Grandma is to say, "It's much more complex than anyone even understands at this point, but it involves [something] and relates to such and such or this and that." She doesn't want details.

I guess, 'know your audience,' eh? ....hmmm; profound. Oh Well.

How to explain 'the Answer,' that Science is?

...and so much other fascinating stuff to think about, too.
GW: Solar Input v. CO2.
Evo: Graduated v. Punctuated.

Black v. White
Analog v. Digital

~ smile Samwik
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#21467 - 05/11/07 05:01 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: samwik]
Wolfman Offline
Senior Member

Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
Revking wrote:

Keep in mind that many of the early scientists, including Copernicus, were also clergy. Galileo remained faithful to his spiritual beliefs, despite being persecuted by obscurants and bigots around him. Blame the bigots, not the church. Sir Isaac Newton was very devout in matters of religion. J.B. Priestly, the co-discoverer of oxygen was a minister. Gregroire Mendel, the founder of genetics, was a monk. And there are many others.

Granted, History remembers those who were able to overcome the adversity of the Church. But, for every Copernicus, how many Hypatia's did we lose? We can never know.

If we are to survive as a species, we need a major change on attitude. Religion, at least Western Religion, teaches that "all will be forgiven", the intimation being that you'll be alright, personally, just Pay The Lady. The facts, our burgeoning population, the massive loss of plant and animal species, and the current ruin of the biosphere, suggest otherwise. We must change our priorities.

I live in a very beautiful part of the World, the South Pacific. We get a lot of Cruise Ships coming here. In 2005, passengers around the World invested 14 Billion dollars on Sea Cruises. Last year, worldwide, 400 billion was spent on cigarettes and 80 billion on Beer. Since 1985 the World Wildlife Fund has donanted 1 billion dollars toward various projects.

Crisis? What Crisis?


Edited by Wolfman (05/11/07 05:08 AM)

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