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#22040 - 06/12/07 02:30 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Turner Offline
Junior Member

Registered: 02/02/07
Posts: 16
It is highly commendable when atheists see the value of behaving morally, ethically and lovingly. After all, all the great prophets, including Jesus, called on people to be "doers of the word, not hearers only"... and "faith without wroks is dead and useless". (James 2). Hypocrisy is never commended as a good way life.

Okay, here is the bottom line, as I understand it: Is all phenomena limited to space, time and causality? Is the idea of the holy and spirituality nothing more than pious nonsense?

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#22043 - 06/12/07 04:43 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Turner]
samwik Offline
Megastar

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 1164
Loc: Colorado
Hiya Turner,
One could argue either way on that last question.

But as for the first question about "all phenomena." I'd say that "science" limits itself to only those phenomena of the material world ("space, time and causality").

Maybe that'd be more clear if written as:
I'd say that only "science" limits itself to those phenomena of the material world ("space, time and causality").

hmmmmm,
~SA
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#22045 - 06/12/07 06:01 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: samwik]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Hi, Turner.

"Is all phenomena limited to space, time and causality?"

Pass.

"Is the idea of the holy and spirituality nothing more than pious nonsense?"

Opinion: No.
For us humans, the universe has dualistic reality. There's an experiential world about which science can say very little, except with regard to its correlation with observable phenomena. For example, to conduct an experiment about 'pain', science begins with the firm knowledge, based on common experience, that such a thing exists. Yet what can it tell us about pain? It can describe only observable phenomana that correlate with the experience. Should one then conclude that only the observable phenomena are real, and that the original experience that prompted the experiment never happened? There's an illogical incongruity there that resembles an Escher print. Consciousness, and all it's abstract phenomena are real, including holiness and spirituality, but they are not 'real' as defined by science. This is the dual nature of our reality.

Disclaimer: the above is not a dogmatic assertion fact grin

HORATIO
O day and night, but this is wondrous strange!

HAMLET
And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

...Not only is there science, there is also poetry...
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#22055 - 06/13/07 06:00 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
Time to give Keats a go:

Beauty is truth and truth beauty. ( From Ode to a Grecian Urn)

Short, sweet and says it all really.

rede -That Hamlet quote is a favourite if mine too, and the sad Macbeth one;

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death.

Space , time, and causality (or lack of it!) there.


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#22056 - 06/13/07 06:37 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
A haiku:

Poetry of life,
In formless forms of beauty,
Elevates the heart.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#22075 - 06/14/07 02:19 AM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
Megastar

Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1490
Loc: Australia
rede-
that's lovely- I'm going to steal it to quote sometimes! Author?

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#22083 - 06/14/07 12:01 PM Re: KNOCK Revs and Religion. Give it your best sho [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
Megastar

Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Author? redewenur smile
Thanks, and you're welcome.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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