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The glacier on Bolivia's Chacaltaya mountain -- which means "cold road" in the local Aymara language -- used to be the world's highest ski resort at 18,000 feet (5,500 metres) above sea level.

But the glacier is now only 10 feet (3 metres) thick on average, down from 49 feet (15 metres) in 1998, and glaciologist Edson Ramirez says it will disappear this year or next.

"This is a process that unfortunately is now irreversible," he said, adding that industrialized nations are doing too little and too late to slash carbon dioxide emissions.

Over 2 million people in the La Paz region depend heavily on the thawing of Chacaltaya and neighbouring glaciers for tap water and, indirectly, for electricity supplies.


http://uk.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUKN0725512820070607
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"You will never find a real Human being - Even in a mirror." ....Mike Kremer.


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That's nuthin', Dude. Wait'll the Himalayan Glaciers start to disappear. Then you'll hear some REAL hollerin'. There, we're talikin' 100's of MILLIONS of people depending on that water.

That's the thing about Global Warming. Once it starts, you can't stop it.

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That will be horrific, as well as inevitable, so many people depend on that water from the Himalayan snow melt each year.

When I was 18 (a long time ago I must admit!), as a tourist in Switzerland, I walked in a tunnel carved through a large glacier called the Rhone Glacier. It has since melted completely!!

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Originally Posted By: Mike Kremer

"This is a process that unfortunately is now irreversible," he said, adding that industrialized nations are doing too little and too late to slash carbon dioxide emissions.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUKN0725512820070607



...and too late to clean up the soot too.

Could one particular glacier be helped by shading it with a geostationary shield?

hmmmm. It'd only slow the melting (at best). No, guess you'd have to change the regional climate too (increase snow).

This link above is an excellent example of how the entire focus is on cutting emission (not even soot!); and, not a mention of sequestration (the much larger potential of sequestration).

~SA'd



Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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I agree that sequestration has potential but I cannot see how putting the whole problem underground helps eventually. Surely in time it will leak, erode, ooze or something, won't it? And has geo-sequestration actually been successfully installed anywhere yet?

Here in Oz we hear a lot about the other great hope, Clean Coal. Seems far off at the moment!

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Hiya Ellis,

First let me say that I may have used the term geo-sequestration too loosely. I was referring to this type of biogeo-sequestration; enhancing the planet's natural systems to utilize more CO2. Keeping it stored is trickier, but possible.

The point is that if we can sequester as much as possible now, later when emissions have finally been lowered, it would be tolerable to have those carbon stores cycle back into the atmosphere. I'm also certain that at least some of the planet's natural systems have been degraded so as to no longer have net carbon storage. Restoring these systems would help now, and also allow us to offset emissions in the future.

Currently, with diminished global net carbon storage (if not a net release), and with emissions only increasing (however slowly), only global-scale sequestration will make any appreciable change in CO2 levels.

I didn't realize Nature has an article on this subject:
Lehmann, J., A Handful of Carbon, Nature 447:143 (May 10, 2007).
I need to read yet, but here's a quote:
"Biochar has been shown to improve the structure and fertility of soils, thereby improving biomass production[3]. Biochar not only enhances the retention[6] and therefore efficiency of fertilizers but may, by the same mechanism, also decrease fertilizer run-off."

Same is true for water/soil moisture & it increases microbial diversity.

...an interesting sounding article in the April 30, 2007 issue of Discover by Micheal Tenneson titled "Black Gold of the Amazon", which highlighted the importance of biochar to the ecosystem. "Some crops have been cultivated on the same plots for 40 years without ever needing fertilizer."

also sounding good, but I haven't checked yet:

Lehman, J., 2007 Bio-energy in the black. Frontiers in Ecology and the Environment

Lehman, J., Gaunt, J., and Rondon, M.: 2006, "Biochar sequestration in terrestrial ecosystems - a - review", Mitigation and Adaptation Strategies for Global Change 11, 403-427

btw, there is a some actual geo-sequestering (i.e. pumping CO2 underground to enhance oil recovery; some mining/land use).

~SA


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Thank you sam! I learned more from that explanation that made sense than all the current hyperbole that is spouted by our mostly self-interested politicians and, it must be said, scientists here in Oz.

For instance I had never realisd that the hope was to release the stuff eventually. So there is some small hope.

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Thanks! That's too high praise really; I should have had an "IMHO" in there somewhere.

"The point is that if we can sequester as much as possible now, later when emissions have finally been lowered, it would be tolerable to have those carbon stores cycle back into the atmosphere." -S.

I don't think there is any mainstream concensus on this yet. I've been browsing the literature on some of the many complex aspects of climate change for months now; and it just seems like the only logical course (in terms of greenhouse effect).

...and it's based on the premise that "natural" sequestration potential does far outweigh fossil fuel emissions.

I'm also not sure we haven't (i'm pretty sure we have) already "tipped" into an accelerating CO2 release mode for tundra/polar soils, as well as an accelerating melting mode for glacial and polar ices.

...and there's the soot problem which isn't addressed by sequestration at all, and for which there is no reversing.

...and I haven't even looked into the sun yet! [NOW THERE is a quotable line!]
--You might be a pseudoscientist if....
...if you write "you might want to use a remote control to ignite the fuel mixture in the boiler." -paul
...or "...and I haven't even looked into the sun yet!" -samwik

sorry, tangentially...


As for the sun...
Though from the few tidbits I've run across, I think solar effects are as significant as greenhouse effects. But the sun may change too. Maybe we'll be lucky in ten years, to have all these GHG's around.

I could write more, but it gets less optimistic (something about social/polity considerations [re: "...self-interested politicians and, it must be said, scientists" ...as well as corporate/military "hyperbole"]).

Thanks again....
~SA


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About politicians and their self-interest: Didn't the novelist, Gore Vidal--I heard him say he is a distant relative of Al Gore--write that there is only one party in the USA, the "Property Party"? It is made up of two wings. One is called the republican wing; the other is the democrat wing. Both wings are owned and operated by the big corporations.

BTW, IMHO, this is probably true for most so-called democracies.


G~O~D--Now & ForeverIS:Nature, Nurture & PNEUMA-ture, Thanks to Warren Farr&ME AT www.unitheist.org
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Yes, politics has taken on way too much of a life of it's own.
Politics only seems to be covered by mainstream media at the level of celebrety infotainment.

*_*

Synergistic Sustainability and Sequestration:

As an economic philosophy, I think it could work wonders to eliminate poverty. Basically it'd mean paying people for good planetary stewardship. It'd mean basic education along with population guidance and management. It'd mean doing things on a culturally sensitive, regional basis.

But it's hard to be optimistic.
That philosophy is beyond even the realm of "pie in the sky."
Got any suggestions?

Sincerely,
~SA


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The problem is, people just don't realize how DIVERSE Humanity is.
Samwik, nice post, for those with high brows. But there are a lot of Humans who live in complete oblivion to what is going on.

Years ago I travelled, Island-Hopping, from Bali to Singapore. Now, you might think that the people of Indonesia, with such a huge population, are fairly well in tune with what's going on in the World. You'd be mistaken.
Travelling along the north slopes of Java and Sumatra I came across some really primitive villages. There was no Highway, back then, you had to move from one isolated hamlet to another, crossing the rivers by small canoes. No power. Houses up on stilts. Pigs and dogs and chickens running free everywhere. In the more remote areas the villagers were of the custom of treating one daughter from each homestead (at adolescence, usually the second-born girl)to a series of herbal balm treatments that caused their mammary glands to "go into overdrive". The result was huge breasts, massive overdeveloped breasts that they would use to harvest Mother's Milk for sale and as remedies to various ailments. The girls would also suckle young piglets. It was one of the most bizzare things I've ever seen. These baby pigs were very highly valued, from what I could understand, and were sold at high prices for special occasions.

That's just a small hint at the kind of diversity among Human Beings.

When one speaks of "enlightening the World" one must consider the Lowest Common Denominator.

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IT's a personal opinion, but suckling pigs rates pretty high on the yuck factor for me.


If you don't care for reality, just wait a while; another will be along shortly. --A Rose

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This practice is also found in Papua/ New Guinea where puppies are also suckled this way, but I had not heard of the special herbs as well. The life of these villagers is very basic and all the precious resources have to be used. We sometimes have a nostalgic view of life before modern urbanisation, but I would much prefer living in the 21st C as I am of Rose's opinion re pig suckling (and any etcs).

Here's an interesting thought- a real reality programme for TV like in "Brave New World" with the Savage - and about as successful. I don't think we are ready for that much reality and unique diversity!!!

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can you please help me

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the gobal climate change is done by time not carbone dy oxide or anything else
it is time thickness that changes everything

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"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
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Back to suckling pigs. I think if you grew up in a culture where it was normal you might not be so repelled. I'm sure I've mentioned to Wolfman my father said they used to do it through the Solomon Islands when he had his big OE there during the minor disturbance in the middle of last century.

The idea of using it as part of a reality program, sort of "Survivor - Yet another Tropical Island", would be fascinating.

Oops. I see we're supposed to be talking about shrinking glaciers. I can see a sort of very remote connection.

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It's not just "Backwoods" Humanity who are out of touch.

On the weekend I decided to "veg out" for awhile in front of the TV. I really don't watch as much TV as I should. I came across a "Star Trek" Auction. Props, wardrobe and accessories from the various Star Trek spin-offs were being auctioned off both live and On-Line. The auction had occured some time ago; the program I was watching was a documentary.
For 45 minutes you're watching all these people spout off about "Gene Roddenbury's Vision of the Future", the betterment of Mankind, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah...And then, when the bidding actually started, they were spending OBSCENE amounts on things like "tricorders", a Ferengi Dictionary, Mr. Spock's Ears. "Ordinary" people, from all over the World, paying as much as $250,000.oo for a model of "The Defiant". There were a pair of girls, from the UK, who had translated all of the songs ever recorded by The Beatles into Klingon.

Somehow it made thoese "Suckling Pig Girls" seem less disconnected.

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Wolfman wrote:

"I really don't watch as much TV as I should".

Wolfman, it's far too easy to watch far too much TV. Don't waste your time. You only live a short while.

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Terry, I'm surprised at you, being from Kiwi-land, and not getting the joke. I was using Pommie "Tongue-in-Cheek" Humor.

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Terry, Wolfman's right about the Pommie humour. I know, cos I saw a TV program about it.


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
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Sorry guys. As an excuse I'll claim my mind was on something else. Not true of course.

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No problem. I'll get back the TV now grin


"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler
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About diversity in humans and suckling piglets:
Don't knockers it until you tried it wink
And also:
The bushmen of the Kalahari would scoff at our IQ-test cause there is no test in them for how to find water. So, to them we are kinda stupid. My point is of course that everything, your morals and your way of life depends on your environment. In present day highschool America, you have to have flexible thumbs for texting and computer skills to be considered cool. In postwar Soviet Russia, it was extensive knowledge of Tolstoy, Dostoyevky etc, which was considered cool. In Japan it was and is still the ability to learn things by heart and to be obedient. In NorthWestern Europe, disobedience in the sense of thinking for your self is valued.
In other words: SAYING SUCKLING PIGLETS RATES HIGH ON THE YUCK FACTOR IS A STUPID AND SUPERFICIAL THING TO SAY!!!! Cause you don't why they do it, what the benefits are or what they get out of it.

Something to which we can relate a little, is the muslim opinion that dogs in the house are dirty. That opinion is shared here in the West by about half the people, but not by all.
Also, the removal of shoes in muslim cultures is not a muslim thing but a heat thing. In tropical countries which have lotsa dusty roads, it's better to take of your shoes when entering a house because:
1. the house won't get dirty
2. it's easy to take them off
3. feet don't stink like in cold countries.
And so, a climate thing has evolved into a religious thing, which is not unusual.

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Brian- feet DO smell in hot countries.

You -Brian -will probably suckle nothing. It is a fact that suckling a baby HURTS and can make you BLEED from the nipples, my mind boggles at the thought of suckling a piglet. I feel that whilst customs should be acknowledged, an examination as to why the women find it necessary to suckle piglets would discover a probably less than noble reason.

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Ellis, not a noble reason perhaps but a reasonable reason nonetheless. Most likely. People just don't do stuff without good incentive.

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Pigs are extremely valuable in those societies. They are often the only big source of protein. Pigs are killed to feed visitors at times of celebration. It would take thousands of rats to feed large numbers of visitors.

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Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
Pigs are extremely valuable in those societies. They are often the only big source of protein. Pigs are killed to feed visitors at times of celebration. It would take thousands of rats to feed large numbers of visitors.


Peru Celebrates Tasty Guinea Pigs


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I'm sure they taste very nice. But do the women suckle them?

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Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
I'm sure they taste very nice. But do the women suckle them?


I don't think so.


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I never expected the "Suckling Pig Girls" of Java and Sumatra to get this kind of mileage on this, or any other, Internet Forum. I was only using that as an example of the "Diversity of Outlook" that Humans have. What is totally reprehensible to some is absolutely acceptable to others. I admit, when I came across these little girls, I was much younger, only 20 years old at the time. And I had just spent 14 months in a Construction Camp in Northern Australia just prior to that. These huge-breasted little girls definitely did make a lasting impression on me. Today, I guess I'd be locked-up for having taken "pornographic" photos of kids. The World changes.

Just an aside - When I first started to come into those settlements where the girls are given those ointments to make their mammary glands grow out of proportion, I was travelling with two young Dutch Paleontology Students. I had accompanied them to Trinil, to the dig dite of the "Missing Link", Pithecanthropus Erectus, Java Man. On the way "back to Civilization" we started meeting the families that followed that age-old practice of treating their daughters with herbs, and having them suckle pigs. Of course, as a horny, young Canadian, I was like "Whoa, getta look at THAT one!" I remember the girl among us, Tori (probably feeling insignificant), saying something like, "Come on, now, that's not erotic". I came back with what I, to this day, believe to be the best "one-liner" of my life - "How do you know what's 'erotic', you're a woman."

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Quote:
"How do you know what's 'erotic', you're a woman."




Wait a minute...I'm a woman.


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It was a LONG time ago, I was a kid.

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Originally Posted By: Wolfman
It was a LONG time ago, I was a kid.


LOL! At 44 I'm still a kid.


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Wolfman, with how much people were you travelling? You, 2 dutchmen (do you remember anything about them, names, city of origin, university?) and Tori, does not sound like a dutch name, so i expect her not to be dutch?

And "feeling insignificant"? Slight sexism here? wink

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It was just the three of us, and I think "Tori" was a nickname, although it was on her Passport, as I recall. It was Hell, they didn't have appropriate clothes or shoes, we ended up WALKING through the bush along a slick mud path for 6 miles with her complaining and griping (in Dutch) every step of the way. Oh yeah, they were smokers, and had run out of cigarettes. too. They were students at the University of Utrecht.

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Funny. You should google them, to see if they still work in their fields.

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I last saw them in 1986. They came to visit me and my family in Vancouver. It was Summer, during Expo '86. They stayed in our spare bedroom and I let them use my T-Bird for two weeks. They had a blast. No kids, working as lecturers in Holland. "Digging", the actual Field Work of Paleontologists is tough work, not for everyone. They never returned to Indonesia. And they had both quit smoking.

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I hadn't realised these were LITTLE girls. What happened to them after they had performed suckling duties, as in -did their breasts return to normal size or were they always recognisable as the pig feeder girls?

I guess I am asking what was in it for them. Did they achieve high staus by providing protein for piglets to grow up big and strong enough to provide protein for the tribe? Perhaps they got a medal.

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In that part of the World, ALL the people are small. Women taller than 5' are rare. The few piglet girls that I actually saw (maybe two dozen) all seemed to be really young, no more han 18, but it's hard to tell. They didn't appear to be treated any differently from the other kids their age, but I was just passing through, didn't know any of the dialects. From what I was told the piges that were suckled were for Special Occassions, but milk was also sold, or bartered, as food and as medicine for certain skin and eye irritaions.

They had no misgivings about their appearance and were eager to show off and have their pictures taken. It looked like they had a pair of jumbo balloons attached to their rib cages. The breasts appeared to be swollen and hard. I noticed that some girls had extended viens in their breasts. My ex-wife threw out most of my travel photos and slides in 1993, but a few of the girls pics survive with my parents and siblings. Now that I think about it, when I got back a LOT of the guys back home wanted copies of those ones. "Eiffel Tower, Istanbul skyline at sun-set, Taj Mahal, the Monkey Temple in Kathmandu?" "Naw, but run off a few of those Javanese girls."

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Ellis wrote:

"Perhaps they got a medal".

I have a suspicion that they didn't. But as you say it would be interesting to know their fate.

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Quote:
My ex-wife threw out most of my travel photos and slides in 1993,


I do a pretty good job of understanding men even though they surprise me sometimes but I will never understand women.


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I never saw any older women with that "condition". I would imagine that they were taken of the medication and their breasts returned to normal.
As far as I could tell, they weren't treated any differently from other kids their age, maybe coddled a bit. We came across one girl that was still asleep at 10:00 in the morning, another that was having her hair checked for lice. With the grossly over-sized mammaries, you'd expect that they might be exempt from regular household chores.

I wouldn't blame them for the retreating Glaciers, though.

Regarding the photos, we were in heavy shade, so I used a fill-in flash. They turned out really well. The girls were eager to get into the pictures, laughing, the sarongs came down, nipples erect, crowding in on myself and Peter, lotsa fun. At one point Tori, standing out on the road with the dogs barking at her, yelled something in Dutch at Peter, and I caught the word "Pornographic". Peter called back something about "Anthropological Documentation", it was hilarious.
I got one roll of prints developed in Singapore. Once in more civilized territory, I started to meet other travellers. That route, overland from Sydney to London, was pretty popular back then. It was known at the "Hippy Trail". But nobody went along Java and Sumatra on the North side. Everyone I met who talked about taking that route (after seeing the pictures) I tried to talk them out of it. Absolutely no amenities for tourists. Every night you had to negotiate for a place to sleep, something to eat, get your laundry done. Lice. Travel on little rickety busses, canoes, actually walking across streams on logs at some points. I went eight days without meeting anybody that could speak English, and when I finally did, all she wanted to talk about was Jesus. Useless to carry any currency larger than 100 Rupiahs in those backward places, nobody had change. Major hassle. Nobody knows you're back there, you get sick in a place like that you could die.

Unfortunately, the South slopes are completely Industrialized, real [censored]-holes. There were close to 100 million people living on Java alone. The north side was agricultural and jungle. Logging hadn't taken off. Back then Indonesia was under the rule of a dictator, Suharto. You'd see these big round concrete pads every here and there, painted white with a red "S" in the center. Helicopter Landing Pads, a reminder that Suharto himself just might swoop in out of the sky at any given time.

On the plus side - The largest Bhuddist Temple in the World at Borobudur. Built 1,000 years ago of black polished stones without mortar. The idea was the whole place would come tumbling down in an Earthquake, and could be re-built. It's stood up all these years, amazing.

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Semantic misunderstanding here- I equated "little girls" with the way that I (and indeed the society in which I live) uses the phrase ie to describe children (definitely pre-pubescent), not "little girls" as in small statured adults. I feel a little happier about them, but still wonder at the exploitation involved, though it is probably not much different to the surgical enhancements that Western women seem eager to undergo,- and this is not a socialogical forum where I could legitimately gripe about the patronising use of "girls" to describe adult women ...so I'll post about the glaciers in future.

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It did seem like exploitation at the time, I mean, the girls had no say in the matter. And the suckling was definitely unpleasant for some of them, they'd wince and slap the pig's ear if it got too aggresive. The pigs were really well behaved. Tori asked why they didn't use bottles fitted with rubber nipples. I told her, "Look around you, girl, these people are POOR." They drank coffee out of coconut shells. Fantastic coffee, BTW. Well, JAVA. Poverty, but not squalor, not like in the cities. The huts were well spaced, not crowded, and very clean. Nothing so much as a leaf on the ground. There are huge snakes there, so keeping vegetaion down is a must.
One thing I DID remember as extremely odd - the piglets had "bonded" with the girls. One family lived near a waterfall, and I wanted to get some pictures with the falls in the background. As we walked over to the stream, Tori noticed that the pigs were all closely following around their respective girls' ankles, never getting too far away. It's a very strange world we live in.

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Pigs are highly intelligent animals which live in herds so they probably bond with each other- and their own mothers.

We aquired a chook (Oz for chicken) when one of our daughters did a science project involving birds' bonding. It was sweet at first how it followed her around, though it got a bit possessive and was eventually relocated to a friend's hen house where Chooky lived for a long time.

Young animals are hard wired to bond with those who nuture them, I guess it ensures survival.

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This whole thread has taken a turn for the Bizarre.

I mentioned the girls on Java and Sumatra merely as examples of how there are a great number of souls on Planet Earth who are not remotely aware about the problems that we as a Species are facing. You could probably include Paris Hilton in that group.
When I was in Africa, I met Taxi Drivers, Hotel Chambermaids, Tour Guides and so on who vehemently denied that Aids even exists. According to them, it's all a big fairy tale concocted by the United States to suppress poor Africans. Even here, in this Forum, we see people who deny, despite overwhelming evidence, that Global Warming could be caused by Human activity. How do you reach these people?

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Quote:
According to them, it's all a big fairy tale concocted by the United States to suppress poor Africans. Even here, in this Forum, we see people who deny, despite overwhelming evidence, that Global Warming could be caused by Human activity. How do you reach these people?


Sigh, how do we reach you?


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You bring up AIDS in Africa. They don't have the funding to test for AIDS. So how do they know these people are dying of it? I've seen evidence, real evidence that those people are correct. It's all a fairy tale. But hey I guess you think they are too stupid to know what is really going on, just us anthropogenic warming deniers.


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I will not mention pigs again!

I think it is very easy to make people believe what they want to believe. If you are an African living in South Africa and you cannot afford the expensive drugs ncessary to treat AIDS it is easier to deny it exists than deal with such an awful possibility. We are the same about poverty world wide, and about Climate Change. It was always like this,- Gallileo got into terrible trouble for daring to suggest that the Earth went around the Sun and just recently the tobacco companies were denying to the last gasp that their products were causing anything other than a soothing pleasure!

Denying something is happening does not make it go away, in fact the problem will just get bigger. It seems to me to be obvious that something odd is happpening to the climate world wide. Why this is so seems to have less urgency than what, if anything, we can do about it.

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Originally Posted By: Ellis
Denying something is happening does not make it go away, in fact the problem will just get bigger. It seems to me to be obvious that something odd is happpening to the climate world wide. Why this is so seems to have less urgency than what, if anything, we can do about it.


Nobody is denying that the Earth has warmed slightly. The problem comes when you attribute it to man's activities. I have seen no evidence of this at all. You will see a study about a glacier melting. Ok evidence of warming yet they will say proof that man caused it. Really? Where? There is actually evidence, scientific proof, that the sun does effect climate and has historically been responsible for dramatic climate changes. Yet those who espouse anthropogenic climate change routinely deny the sun is playing any part. Get real.

As for the AIDS article I read, I'll see if I can find a link. It was an interesting read.


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Ok here is the AIDS article. Long read but well worth it. I'll also include a quote here.

AIDS IN AFRICA
In Search of the Truth
By Rian Malan

Rolling Stone 22 Nov. 2001

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/rmafrica.htm

Quote:
These stories all originate in Africa, but the statistics that support them emanate from the suburbs of Geneva, where the World Health Organization has its headquarters. Technically employed by the United Nations, WHO officials are the world's disease police, dedicated to eradicating illness. They crusade against old scourges, raise the alarm against new ones, fight epidemics, and dispense grants and expertise to poor countries. In conjunction with UNAIDS (the joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS, based at the same Geneva campus), the WHO also collects and disseminates information about the AIDS pandemic.

In the West, the collection of such data is a fairly simple matter: Almost every new AIDS case is scientifically verified and reported to government health authorities, who inform the disease police in Geneva. But AIDS mostly occurs in Africa, where hospitals are thinly spread, understaffed and often bereft of the laboratory equipment necessary to confirm HIV infections. How do you track an epidemic under these conditions? In 1985, the WHO asked experts to hammer out a simple description of AIDS, something that would enable bush doctors to recognize the symptoms and start counting cases, but the outcome was a fiasco - partly because doctors struggled to diagnose the disease with the naked eye, but mostly because African governments were too disorganized to collect the numbers and send them in. Once it become clear that the case-reporting system wasn't working, the WHO devised an alternative, by which Africa's AIDS statistics are now primarily based.

It works like this: On any given morning anywhere in sub-Saharan Africa, you'll find crowds of expectant mothers ling up outside government prenatal clinics, waiting for a routine checkup that includes the drawing of a blood sample to test for syphilis. According UNAIDS, "anonymous blood specimens left over from these tests are tested for antibodies to HIV," a ritual that usually takes place once a year. The results are fed into a computer model that uses "simple back-calculation procedures" and knowledge of "the well-known natural course of HIV infection" to produce statistics for the continent In other words, AIDS researchers descend on selected clinics, remove the leftover blood samples and screen them for traces of HIV The results are forwarded to Geneva and fed into a computer program called Epi-model: If a given number of pregnant women are HIV-positive, the formula says, then a certain percentage of all adults and children are presumed to be infected, too. And if that many people are infected, it follows that a percentage of them must have died. Hence, when UNAIDS announces 14 million Africans have succumbed to AIDS, it does not mean 14 million infected bodies have been counted. It means that 14 million people have theoretically died, some of them unseen in Africa's swamps, shantytowns and vast swaths of terra incognita.

You can theorize at will about the rest of Africa and nobody will ever be the wiser, but my homeland is different - we are a semi-industrialized nation with a respectable statistical service. "South Africa," says Ian Timaeus, London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine professor and UNAIDS consultant "is the only country in sub-Saharan Africa where sufficient deaths are routinely registered to attempt to produce national estimates of mortality from this source." He adds that, "coverage is far from complete," but there's enough of it to be useful - around eight of ten deaths are routinely registered in South Africa, according to Timaeus, compared to about 1 in 100 elsewhere below the Sahara.

It therefore seemed to me that checking the number of registered deaths in South Africa was the surest way of assessing the statistics from Geneva, so I dug out the figures. Geneva's computer models suggested that AIDS deaths here had tripled in three years, surging from 80,000-odd in 1996 to 250,000 in 1999. But no such rise was discernable in total registered deaths, which went from 294,703 to 343,535 within roughly the same period. The discrepancy was so large that I wrote to make absolutely sure I had understood these numbers correctly. Both parties confirmed that I had, and at that exact moment, my story was in trouble. Geneva's figures reflected catastrophe. Pretoria's figures did not. Between these extremes lay a gray area populated by local experts such as Stephen Kramer, manager of insurance giant Metropolitan's AIDS Research Unit, whose own computer model shows AIDS deaths at about one-third Geneva's estimates. But so what? South African actuaries don't get a say in this debate. The figures you see in your newspapers come from Geneva. The WHO takes pains to label these numbers estimates only, not rock-solid certainties, but still, these are estimates we all accept as the truth.



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I admit, I didn't go to Africa to study AIDS. I went for more self-serving reasons, mainly I wanted to climb Kilimanjaro. I had thought, naively as it turned out, that you could travel down along the Nile from Cairo to Lake Victoria. As it turned out, you'd be mad to try that, bandits are everywhere in Southern Sudan and Uganda, a White Guy would never make it. This was before "The Internet", you couldn't do any advance research. So I made a detour at Khartoum and traveled east, then south. It was a cool trip, but one morning, over breakfast in a little Hotel called "The People's Palace" in Asmar'a, Eritrea, I came across some journalists who were filming in East Africa, and got invited to visit a refugee camp with them. Big mistake. The worst experience of my life seeing all these little babies sick, crying, starving, nothing you or anybody else could do for them. Vultures hopping around inside the compounds. Preists administering Last Rites. I'll never forget that the little girls wore these steel Neck Rings, some kind of Tribal Jewelry. A sign that, at some point in their short lives, somebody had cared agreat deal for them. Like a dolt, I asked, "What happened to their parents?" AIDS. I dreamt about that camp or months after getting back to Samoa. I have far more vivid memories of that camp than I do of the trip up Kili.

So. No AIDS in Africa? Big American Conspiracy? I beg to differ.

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You didn't read that article did you? Let me ask you this, how did they verify that it was AIDS in that camp? You believe in science, where was the verification? Read that article, please.


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An article like this really doesn't have much of an impact as compared to seeing and smelling Death on that kind of scale. And, I NEVER went to Africa to check out a refugee camp, that side trip spoiled the whole experience for me. It's not AIDS, AIDS, AIDS everywhere you go. There are incredible things to see over there, they treat Leopards in the Gombe Stream Reserve the same way Black Bears are treated at Banff or Jasper. "Shoo, Go away!" Incredible.

One thing I absolutely HATED. At the Game Parks, they have a different set of Rates for various visitors depnding on your Passport. OK if you're from Europe, but if you're American or Canadian, prepare to pay through the nose.

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Ellis. Liked your comment, "tobacco companies were denying to the last gasp".

The following is completely off topic but Wolfman wrote, "if you're American or Canadian, prepare to pay through the nose". My brother was in Indonesia, miles from anywhere. I'll ask him where if you're interested. Local transport turned up and he and an American asked the fee out. American was indignant at the price and said he'd walk. My brother couldn't be bothered walking so decided he'd pay. At the destination he started to get his money out, driver said, "no fee". An extreme example. Advantage of being from NZ?

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Quote:
An article like this really doesn't have much of an impact as compared to seeing and smelling Death on that kind of scale.


My point was you were simply taking someone's word that AIDS was the cause. I fully understand your emotional response to the surrounding death. The article points out that they are only guessing about AIDS as the cause and you have provided nothing to refute that idea.


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Terry, in Africa they've made a Cottage Industry out of gouging North Americans. Official-looking signs posted, "US, Canadian Fee Schedule", no arguing, pay or turn around and leave. As it turns out, just about all the US tourists travel in pre-paid Tour Packages, they've been scalped before they even got on the plane back in Boston or Cleveland or Denver. Or Sacramento. Budget travellers get hosed something fierce. It doesn't take long before you get sick of seeing everyone else having a Gin & Tonic (THE drink in Africa)for $3 while you sit there and pay NINE! And it isn't everywhere, just in the big Game Reserves.
As for whether or not AIDS exists in Africa, go see for yourself. It's not like there are camps everywhere, in fact, they're hidden away, as far as I could tell. What you do see are Famine Relief Trucks. BTW, "Oxfam" trucks would outnumber "Red Cross" trucks by about 10 to 1. Has anybody in the States even HEARD of Oxfam? Those volunteers have stories that would make your blood curdle.

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You still haven't read the article have you. I doubt now that you even read the part I posted.


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I just scanned it last night but I did read it more thoroughly just now. I'm not moved.
Certainly, the statstics of AIDS deaths may (probably) have been inflated, but could it be that they're deperate for research money? You're a mother. Nice looking boys, BTW. They were fortunate enough to have been born in healthy circumstances. Try picturing them in a camp in East Africa as babies. When I was there I didn't have my two young daughters yet, but I would see my older kids faces transposed in the faces of the starving kids, and say, "What if..."
Some events in Life are indelible. No amount of reports to the contrary can change that.

Back to Glaciers, the icefield atop Kilimanjaro took us a little more than 12 hours to get up and back down. On the way down we passed a big area where the face of the ice had fallen in. Big boulders of ice almost the size of a school bus. If we'd been there when it had collapsed we'd have all been killed. An Architect colleague of mine went in 2002, I think it was, and they were only on the ice for 6 hours. It's shrinking fast. It's nothing like the thing that Hemingway wrote about. I went in March and the sunset was above heavy cloud cover, quite disappointing. Mark went in early October and his group saw the sun rise over the southern hills of Kenya, Tsavo Park. He has some great photos. That old song by Toto, about watching the sunrise above the Serengeti is completely wrong. Kili is way, way to the East

And it's only in the Parks that they rip off North Americans, Egypt isn't at all like that.

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I have not been to Africa- and I read the article. In my opinion it is rubbish. AIDS means not as stated in the article, a virus that makes you sick but a virus that lowers your immunity to a stage where other diseases are able to get a good go at killing you. You die of TB, pneumomia, cancers of various sorts and often suffer from awful wasting etc. Infection runs through the body, even in doe-eyed young girls who want to be models.

It is possible to not catch AIDS in western counries. Sexual absinance will do it, if that is not possible then casual sexual encounters when the partners' HIV status is unknown, should always include a condom. Sharing needles is silly, as is any behaviour that includes blood mixing....etc. That's all fine for western countries we've known about it for years and can make an informed choice regarding risk. However it may be harder in Africa where the Government told people that AIDS did not exist, but if they got it then garlic, lemon and rhubarb infused together would cure it. Now I believe, thanks to the help of the WHO, generic drugs are available so that at least some of the population can afford them.

Denying that AIDS exists is silly--- but denying that it is preventable is worse.


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Wolfman- I read something about Killamanjaro recently that seemed to be saying that it would be snow free very soon and this is not to do with Climate Change but because the snow had in fact been slowly retreating since the Ice Age. The clincher was the statement that ther was no new snow since then because it NEVER snowed there.

Is this so? This seems very unlikely to me, especially as the point was that it is too near the Equator for snow, and I know it snows on the top of Kawaii in Hawaii. I've seen the ski-runs!! Maybe though it has something to do with the availability of water? Sounds like you had a very scary moment or two!!

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The recent studies have shown that Killamanjaro is losing it glaciers do to deforestation not climate change.

Nature Study Debunks Kilimanjaro Glacier Myth

Written By: James M. Taylor
Published In: Environment News
Publication Date: February 1, 2004
Publisher: The Heartland Institute

Quote:
Deforestation “More Likely Culprit”

According to Nature’s Betsy Mason, “Although it’s tempting to blame the (Kilimanjaro) ice loss on global warming, researchers think that deforestation of the mountain’s foothills is the more likely culprit.”

Forests at the base of Kilimanjaro have been steadily disappearing for decades. “Without the forests’ humidity,” Mason reports, “previously moisture-laden winds blew dry. No longer replenished with water, the ice is evaporating in the strong equatorial sunshine.”


http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=14287


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Ellis, you know, I never though of that, the seasonal snowfall on the Big Island doesn't appear to be diminishing, at least it hasn't been reported as receiving less snow than normal. My son graduated from U H Hilo (Home of the Vulcans!) and I've got photos of him on my office wall up on Kilauea snowboarding. Kili's closer to the Equator, but awfully high as well, something over 19,000 at the peak. You'd think it wouldn't get that much new snow. The Hawaii mountains are something around 14,000 I believe.

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Originally Posted By: scpg02
The recent studies have shown that Killamanjaro is losing it glaciers do to deforestation not climate change.

Nature Study Debunks Kilimanjaro Glacier Myth
Quote:
Deforestation “More Likely Culprit”

According to Nature’s Betsy Mason, “Although it’s tempting to blame the (Kilimanjaro) ice loss on global warming, researchers think that deforestation of the mountain’s foothills is the more likely culprit.”
Forests at the base of Kilimanjaro have been steadily disappearing for decades. “Without the forests’ humidity,” Mason reports, “previously moisture-laden winds blew dry. No longer replenished with water, the ice is evaporating in the strong equatorial sunshine.”

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=14287


Isn't deforestation one of the leading causes of climate change?

This should probably be more properly described as regional climate change (due to deforestation). That the summation of regional climate changes worldwide has caused global climate change should not be overlooked though. Thus I think it's fair to say that global climate change is at least reinforcing the regional CC of that area of Africa.

As usual, everyone thinks of global warming as equating with emissions only, and they miss the interconnectedness of it all.

~SA


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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Ellis wrote:

"the point was that it is too near the Equator for snow, and I know it snows on the top of Kawaii in Hawaii".

Obviously snowfall is not simply a product of cooling through altitude. You need moisture as well. Hawai'i has a moister climate than does Kenya. It's closer to the sea for a start.

Scpg02 wrote:

"Killamanjaro is losing it glaciers do to deforestation".

I remember reading that before the Aboriginal Australians arrived Oz had a more widespread forest cover. Whenever rain fell wind carried transpired moisture further inland to fall as rain again and so on. Deforestation through widespread use of fire reduced transpiration and the amount of moisture carried further inland. This exaggerated the drying of the continent. Reforestation may be the single most important thing to reduce drought. Trouble is any trees planted in drought-prone regions are often immediately chopped down and used for fuel. Too many people again.

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I had the ski fields in the wrong place-sorry. It is interesting that deforestation is so important with regard to climate change, and yet not given that much attention, though I believe Australia has been able to reduce its carbon usage calculation by the banning of bush clearing for grazing recently. The moisture explanation makes sense, and does the deforestation explain the situation in the Himalayas too, where the run-off from the snows seems to be declining? Or is that really population expansion?

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