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In that part of the World, ALL the people are small. Women taller than 5' are rare. The few piglet girls that I actually saw (maybe two dozen) all seemed to be really young, no more han 18, but it's hard to tell. They didn't appear to be treated any differently from the other kids their age, but I was just passing through, didn't know any of the dialects. From what I was told the piges that were suckled were for Special Occassions, but milk was also sold, or bartered, as food and as medicine for certain skin and eye irritaions.

They had no misgivings about their appearance and were eager to show off and have their pictures taken. It looked like they had a pair of jumbo balloons attached to their rib cages. The breasts appeared to be swollen and hard. I noticed that some girls had extended viens in their breasts. My ex-wife threw out most of my travel photos and slides in 1993, but a few of the girls pics survive with my parents and siblings. Now that I think about it, when I got back a LOT of the guys back home wanted copies of those ones. "Eiffel Tower, Istanbul skyline at sun-set, Taj Mahal, the Monkey Temple in Kathmandu?" "Naw, but run off a few of those Javanese girls."

Last edited by Wolfman; 06/27/07 07:31 AM.
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Ellis wrote:

"Perhaps they got a medal".

I have a suspicion that they didn't. But as you say it would be interesting to know their fate.

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Quote:
My ex-wife threw out most of my travel photos and slides in 1993,


I do a pretty good job of understanding men even though they surprise me sometimes but I will never understand women.


It's not Global Warming, it's Ice Age Abatement.
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I never saw any older women with that "condition". I would imagine that they were taken of the medication and their breasts returned to normal.
As far as I could tell, they weren't treated any differently from other kids their age, maybe coddled a bit. We came across one girl that was still asleep at 10:00 in the morning, another that was having her hair checked for lice. With the grossly over-sized mammaries, you'd expect that they might be exempt from regular household chores.

I wouldn't blame them for the retreating Glaciers, though.

Regarding the photos, we were in heavy shade, so I used a fill-in flash. They turned out really well. The girls were eager to get into the pictures, laughing, the sarongs came down, nipples erect, crowding in on myself and Peter, lotsa fun. At one point Tori, standing out on the road with the dogs barking at her, yelled something in Dutch at Peter, and I caught the word "Pornographic". Peter called back something about "Anthropological Documentation", it was hilarious.
I got one roll of prints developed in Singapore. Once in more civilized territory, I started to meet other travellers. That route, overland from Sydney to London, was pretty popular back then. It was known at the "Hippy Trail". But nobody went along Java and Sumatra on the North side. Everyone I met who talked about taking that route (after seeing the pictures) I tried to talk them out of it. Absolutely no amenities for tourists. Every night you had to negotiate for a place to sleep, something to eat, get your laundry done. Lice. Travel on little rickety busses, canoes, actually walking across streams on logs at some points. I went eight days without meeting anybody that could speak English, and when I finally did, all she wanted to talk about was Jesus. Useless to carry any currency larger than 100 Rupiahs in those backward places, nobody had change. Major hassle. Nobody knows you're back there, you get sick in a place like that you could die.

Unfortunately, the South slopes are completely Industrialized, real [censored]-holes. There were close to 100 million people living on Java alone. The north side was agricultural and jungle. Logging hadn't taken off. Back then Indonesia was under the rule of a dictator, Suharto. You'd see these big round concrete pads every here and there, painted white with a red "S" in the center. Helicopter Landing Pads, a reminder that Suharto himself just might swoop in out of the sky at any given time.

On the plus side - The largest Bhuddist Temple in the World at Borobudur. Built 1,000 years ago of black polished stones without mortar. The idea was the whole place would come tumbling down in an Earthquake, and could be re-built. It's stood up all these years, amazing.

Last edited by Wolfman; 06/27/07 05:51 PM.
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Semantic misunderstanding here- I equated "little girls" with the way that I (and indeed the society in which I live) uses the phrase ie to describe children (definitely pre-pubescent), not "little girls" as in small statured adults. I feel a little happier about them, but still wonder at the exploitation involved, though it is probably not much different to the surgical enhancements that Western women seem eager to undergo,- and this is not a socialogical forum where I could legitimately gripe about the patronising use of "girls" to describe adult women ...so I'll post about the glaciers in future.

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It did seem like exploitation at the time, I mean, the girls had no say in the matter. And the suckling was definitely unpleasant for some of them, they'd wince and slap the pig's ear if it got too aggresive. The pigs were really well behaved. Tori asked why they didn't use bottles fitted with rubber nipples. I told her, "Look around you, girl, these people are POOR." They drank coffee out of coconut shells. Fantastic coffee, BTW. Well, JAVA. Poverty, but not squalor, not like in the cities. The huts were well spaced, not crowded, and very clean. Nothing so much as a leaf on the ground. There are huge snakes there, so keeping vegetaion down is a must.
One thing I DID remember as extremely odd - the piglets had "bonded" with the girls. One family lived near a waterfall, and I wanted to get some pictures with the falls in the background. As we walked over to the stream, Tori noticed that the pigs were all closely following around their respective girls' ankles, never getting too far away. It's a very strange world we live in.

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Pigs are highly intelligent animals which live in herds so they probably bond with each other- and their own mothers.

We aquired a chook (Oz for chicken) when one of our daughters did a science project involving birds' bonding. It was sweet at first how it followed her around, though it got a bit possessive and was eventually relocated to a friend's hen house where Chooky lived for a long time.

Young animals are hard wired to bond with those who nuture them, I guess it ensures survival.

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This whole thread has taken a turn for the Bizarre.

I mentioned the girls on Java and Sumatra merely as examples of how there are a great number of souls on Planet Earth who are not remotely aware about the problems that we as a Species are facing. You could probably include Paris Hilton in that group.
When I was in Africa, I met Taxi Drivers, Hotel Chambermaids, Tour Guides and so on who vehemently denied that Aids even exists. According to them, it's all a big fairy tale concocted by the United States to suppress poor Africans. Even here, in this Forum, we see people who deny, despite overwhelming evidence, that Global Warming could be caused by Human activity. How do you reach these people?

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Quote:
According to them, it's all a big fairy tale concocted by the United States to suppress poor Africans. Even here, in this Forum, we see people who deny, despite overwhelming evidence, that Global Warming could be caused by Human activity. How do you reach these people?


Sigh, how do we reach you?


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You bring up AIDS in Africa. They don't have the funding to test for AIDS. So how do they know these people are dying of it? I've seen evidence, real evidence that those people are correct. It's all a fairy tale. But hey I guess you think they are too stupid to know what is really going on, just us anthropogenic warming deniers.


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I will not mention pigs again!

I think it is very easy to make people believe what they want to believe. If you are an African living in South Africa and you cannot afford the expensive drugs ncessary to treat AIDS it is easier to deny it exists than deal with such an awful possibility. We are the same about poverty world wide, and about Climate Change. It was always like this,- Gallileo got into terrible trouble for daring to suggest that the Earth went around the Sun and just recently the tobacco companies were denying to the last gasp that their products were causing anything other than a soothing pleasure!

Denying something is happening does not make it go away, in fact the problem will just get bigger. It seems to me to be obvious that something odd is happpening to the climate world wide. Why this is so seems to have less urgency than what, if anything, we can do about it.

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Originally Posted By: Ellis
Denying something is happening does not make it go away, in fact the problem will just get bigger. It seems to me to be obvious that something odd is happpening to the climate world wide. Why this is so seems to have less urgency than what, if anything, we can do about it.


Nobody is denying that the Earth has warmed slightly. The problem comes when you attribute it to man's activities. I have seen no evidence of this at all. You will see a study about a glacier melting. Ok evidence of warming yet they will say proof that man caused it. Really? Where? There is actually evidence, scientific proof, that the sun does effect climate and has historically been responsible for dramatic climate changes. Yet those who espouse anthropogenic climate change routinely deny the sun is playing any part. Get real.

As for the AIDS article I read, I'll see if I can find a link. It was an interesting read.


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Ok here is the AIDS article. Long read but well worth it. I'll also include a quote here.

AIDS IN AFRICA
In Search of the Truth
By Rian Malan

Rolling Stone 22 Nov. 2001

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/rmafrica.htm

Quote:
These stories all originate in Africa, but the statistics that support them emanate from the suburbs of Geneva, where the World Health Organization has its headquarters. Technically employed by the United Nations, WHO officials are the world's disease police, dedicated to eradicating illness. They crusade against old scourges, raise the alarm against new ones, fight epidemics, and dispense grants and expertise to poor countries. In conjunction with UNAIDS (the joint United Nations Programme on HIV/AIDS, based at the same Geneva campus), the WHO also collects and disseminates information about the AIDS pandemic.

In the West, the collection of such data is a fairly simple matter: Almost every new AIDS case is scientifically verified and reported to government health authorities, who inform the disease police in Geneva. But AIDS mostly occurs in Africa, where hospitals are thinly spread, understaffed and often bereft of the laboratory equipment necessary to confirm HIV infections. How do you track an epidemic under these conditions? In 1985, the WHO asked experts to hammer out a simple description of AIDS, something that would enable bush doctors to recognize the symptoms and start counting cases, but the outcome was a fiasco - partly because doctors struggled to diagnose the disease with the naked eye, but mostly because African governments were too disorganized to collect the numbers and send them in. Once it become clear that the case-reporting system wasn't working, the WHO devised an alternative, by which Africa's AIDS statistics are now primarily based.

It works like this: On any given morning anywhere in sub-Saharan Africa, you'll find crowds of expectant mothers ling up outside government prenatal clinics, waiting for a routine checkup that includes the drawing of a blood sample to test for syphilis. According UNAIDS, "anonymous blood specimens left over from these tests are tested for antibodies to HIV," a ritual that usually takes place once a year. The results are fed into a computer model that uses "simple back-calculation procedures" and knowledge of "the well-known natural course of HIV infection" to produce statistics for the continent In other words, AIDS researchers descend on selected clinics, remove the leftover blood samples and screen them for traces of HIV The results are forwarded to Geneva and fed into a computer program called Epi-model: If a given number of pregnant women are HIV-positive, the formula says, then a certain percentage of all adults and children are presumed to be infected, too. And if that many people are infected, it follows that a percentage of them must have died. Hence, when UNAIDS announces 14 million Africans have succumbed to AIDS, it does not mean 14 million infected bodies have been counted. It means that 14 million people have theoretically died, some of them unseen in Africa's swamps, shantytowns and vast swaths of terra incognita.

You can theorize at will about the rest of Africa and nobody will ever be the wiser, but my homeland is different - we are a semi-industrialized nation with a respectable statistical service. "South Africa," says Ian Timaeus, London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine professor and UNAIDS consultant "is the only country in sub-Saharan Africa where sufficient deaths are routinely registered to attempt to produce national estimates of mortality from this source." He adds that, "coverage is far from complete," but there's enough of it to be useful - around eight of ten deaths are routinely registered in South Africa, according to Timaeus, compared to about 1 in 100 elsewhere below the Sahara.

It therefore seemed to me that checking the number of registered deaths in South Africa was the surest way of assessing the statistics from Geneva, so I dug out the figures. Geneva's computer models suggested that AIDS deaths here had tripled in three years, surging from 80,000-odd in 1996 to 250,000 in 1999. But no such rise was discernable in total registered deaths, which went from 294,703 to 343,535 within roughly the same period. The discrepancy was so large that I wrote to make absolutely sure I had understood these numbers correctly. Both parties confirmed that I had, and at that exact moment, my story was in trouble. Geneva's figures reflected catastrophe. Pretoria's figures did not. Between these extremes lay a gray area populated by local experts such as Stephen Kramer, manager of insurance giant Metropolitan's AIDS Research Unit, whose own computer model shows AIDS deaths at about one-third Geneva's estimates. But so what? South African actuaries don't get a say in this debate. The figures you see in your newspapers come from Geneva. The WHO takes pains to label these numbers estimates only, not rock-solid certainties, but still, these are estimates we all accept as the truth.



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I admit, I didn't go to Africa to study AIDS. I went for more self-serving reasons, mainly I wanted to climb Kilimanjaro. I had thought, naively as it turned out, that you could travel down along the Nile from Cairo to Lake Victoria. As it turned out, you'd be mad to try that, bandits are everywhere in Southern Sudan and Uganda, a White Guy would never make it. This was before "The Internet", you couldn't do any advance research. So I made a detour at Khartoum and traveled east, then south. It was a cool trip, but one morning, over breakfast in a little Hotel called "The People's Palace" in Asmar'a, Eritrea, I came across some journalists who were filming in East Africa, and got invited to visit a refugee camp with them. Big mistake. The worst experience of my life seeing all these little babies sick, crying, starving, nothing you or anybody else could do for them. Vultures hopping around inside the compounds. Preists administering Last Rites. I'll never forget that the little girls wore these steel Neck Rings, some kind of Tribal Jewelry. A sign that, at some point in their short lives, somebody had cared agreat deal for them. Like a dolt, I asked, "What happened to their parents?" AIDS. I dreamt about that camp or months after getting back to Samoa. I have far more vivid memories of that camp than I do of the trip up Kili.

So. No AIDS in Africa? Big American Conspiracy? I beg to differ.

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You didn't read that article did you? Let me ask you this, how did they verify that it was AIDS in that camp? You believe in science, where was the verification? Read that article, please.


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An article like this really doesn't have much of an impact as compared to seeing and smelling Death on that kind of scale. And, I NEVER went to Africa to check out a refugee camp, that side trip spoiled the whole experience for me. It's not AIDS, AIDS, AIDS everywhere you go. There are incredible things to see over there, they treat Leopards in the Gombe Stream Reserve the same way Black Bears are treated at Banff or Jasper. "Shoo, Go away!" Incredible.

One thing I absolutely HATED. At the Game Parks, they have a different set of Rates for various visitors depnding on your Passport. OK if you're from Europe, but if you're American or Canadian, prepare to pay through the nose.

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Ellis. Liked your comment, "tobacco companies were denying to the last gasp".

The following is completely off topic but Wolfman wrote, "if you're American or Canadian, prepare to pay through the nose". My brother was in Indonesia, miles from anywhere. I'll ask him where if you're interested. Local transport turned up and he and an American asked the fee out. American was indignant at the price and said he'd walk. My brother couldn't be bothered walking so decided he'd pay. At the destination he started to get his money out, driver said, "no fee". An extreme example. Advantage of being from NZ?

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Quote:
An article like this really doesn't have much of an impact as compared to seeing and smelling Death on that kind of scale.


My point was you were simply taking someone's word that AIDS was the cause. I fully understand your emotional response to the surrounding death. The article points out that they are only guessing about AIDS as the cause and you have provided nothing to refute that idea.


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Terry, in Africa they've made a Cottage Industry out of gouging North Americans. Official-looking signs posted, "US, Canadian Fee Schedule", no arguing, pay or turn around and leave. As it turns out, just about all the US tourists travel in pre-paid Tour Packages, they've been scalped before they even got on the plane back in Boston or Cleveland or Denver. Or Sacramento. Budget travellers get hosed something fierce. It doesn't take long before you get sick of seeing everyone else having a Gin & Tonic (THE drink in Africa)for $3 while you sit there and pay NINE! And it isn't everywhere, just in the big Game Reserves.
As for whether or not AIDS exists in Africa, go see for yourself. It's not like there are camps everywhere, in fact, they're hidden away, as far as I could tell. What you do see are Famine Relief Trucks. BTW, "Oxfam" trucks would outnumber "Red Cross" trucks by about 10 to 1. Has anybody in the States even HEARD of Oxfam? Those volunteers have stories that would make your blood curdle.

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You still haven't read the article have you. I doubt now that you even read the part I posted.


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