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#21776 - 05/24/07 08:21 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: samwik]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Registered: 08/02/06
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Samwik wrote:

"I'd like to hear Terry's take on Ellis' comments about Nationalism and Evolutionary Biology (the last Q & A; 56:00)."

I must have missed something Sam. What are you referring to? Different Terry, different Ellis?


Edited by terrytnewzealand (05/24/07 08:28 AM)

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#21777 - 05/24/07 08:44 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: terrytnewzealand]
samwik Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
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Loc: Colorado
Prof. George F. R. Ellis!

I can be pretty dense sometimes. I didn't even realize the coincidence in names.
...re: your edit.



...anyway

Hiya Terry!

This is referring to the hour long video from this link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8133582867583552629&q=einstein+duration%3Along&hl=en
(post #21733).

The previous couple of posts (previous page?) are sort of "reviews," or comments on the video (and include timecodes).
But you can scroll forward to time ~56:00 to just hear the question.

Seeya,
~Sam
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#21778 - 05/24/07 08:46 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: samwik]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Thanks Sam. I thought I must be off my tree. Quite possible of course. Our computer is pretty old so I took note of the comment about download time and haven't looked at the video. Might give it a go.

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#21779 - 05/24/07 09:09 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: terrytnewzealand]
samwik Offline
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Terry,
I don't always have good luck with videos, but this one worked for me on RealPlayer.

...and, just fyi....

As I recall, Prof. Ellis said "reason" is what we use to reconcile emotions/intuition and rationality/evidence, and harmonize these with ethics.

I notice Al Gore has a new book out, The Assault on Reason.

He's gonna be guesting on the Daily Show, tonight (Thursday, 5/24).

Cheers,
~Samwik
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#21780 - 05/24/07 09:13 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: terrytnewzealand]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Got it. Two or three words at a time but I think I followed it. Way back Dan Morgan equated nationalism with religion and I tend to agree. The reason I indicate where I come from in my name here is that I believe where you come from influences your outlook.

I have no problems with a world government but it's difficult to achieve without it simply resulting from those with the strongest armed forces assuming control. (The aim of a certain nationalistic government at present?).

Ellis's comments comparing nationalism with evolutionary biology is a result of the view I've been harping on about all along. Evolution is NOT the result of survival of the fittest, an in group and an out group. Evolution results from the mixing of genes and survival of offspring. Individuals of a species survive as a consequence of a whole series of events. It is not always an advantage to be the fastest and finish up in front. Besides, any species needs a whole heap of genes to survive, more than can be found in any one individual. Inbreeding is almost always disadvantageous to a population. That is probably the reason so many isolated indigenous human populations were so ready to form hybrids with Europeans when they first arrived. It was only once Europeans began to arrive in huge numbers and to isolate themselves from the indigenous populations that troube arose in a big way. Anyway, enough of a rave for now.

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#21783 - 05/24/07 11:26 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: terrytnewzealand]
redewenur Offline
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Terry: "I have no problems with a world government but it's difficult to achieve without it simply resulting from those with the strongest armed forces assuming control. (The aim of a certain nationalistic government at present?)."

Very true. It's my hope (against hope) that Noam Chomsky becomes a household name.

I'm quite sure that success, with regard to both the particulars, such as world government, and the general, i.e. our survival as a species, relies upon the the evolution of societies into the ethical entities spoken of by Prof. Ellis. It's argued that there's evidence of evolution in this direction.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#21788 - 05/25/07 01:18 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Redewenur wrote:

"It's my hope (against hope) that Noam Chomsky becomes a household name."

Yes.

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#21794 - 05/25/07 07:16 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: terrytnewzealand]
samwik Offline
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Originally Posted By: terrytnewzealand
Ellis's comments comparing nationalism with evolutionary biology is a result of the view I've been harping on about all along. Evolution is NOT the result of survival of the fittest, an 'in group' and an 'out group'.

Terry, I thought you'd be interested in this "definition," as well as the website. smile

http://www.anthrobase.com/default.html

"Social theory developed in the 19th century, which had fundamental influence on sociological and anthropological thinking up until the First World War (see structural functionalism). Evolutionism postulates that societies develop from simpler to more complex organizational forms, a simple formulation, which hardly anyone would disagree with, even today. In the 19th century, however, one often also imagined that development proceeded by necessity toward morally "superior" and more "civilized" conditions (a view that was widely abandoned after the First World War). In more modern variants, evolutionism is often tied to theories of modernization and scale, ecological anthropology, and research on development and underdevelopment. Levi-Strauss has shown that movements from "primitive" to "modern" thought not only implies increasing complexity, but a change in the type of complexity (see bricoleur)." -from
http://www.anthrobase.com/Dic/eng/def/evolutionism.htm

~SA

p.s. I agree, I don't think it's a very good analogy. They're both very complex progressive systems, but the particulars don't equate very well. IMHO
~S.


Edited by samwik (05/25/07 07:19 AM)
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#21797 - 05/25/07 10:37 PM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: samwik]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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That's a good link Sam. Thanks.

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#21799 - 05/26/07 02:17 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: terrytnewzealand]
Wolfman Offline
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Registered: 04/17/06
Posts: 264
Loc: Pago Pago, American Samoa
Dream on about ole Noam becoming a household name in the States. He once called the US media the "Propoganda Arm" of the American Government.
He's more well-known in Europe than in the US.

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#21801 - 05/26/07 03:20 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Wolfman]
redewenur Offline
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(Social evolution and political awareness)

Yes, Wolfman, in the US, he had no hope of renown before the advent of the internet. Now, with its ever growing use, his prospects are at least better than zero. In the UK, I think the political climate can accommodate him very well. The thinking electorate knows that its trust in the leadership has been betrayed, that it's been deliberately deceived, its intelligence slighted, and democracy abused. It's time we saw more of the social evolution that we talk about - it should make better progress in a democracy, where exchange of information and ideas occurs more readily.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#21808 - 05/26/07 06:24 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
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No relation though my father was called George!

Chomsky got himself into trouble commenting about the War on Terror didn't he? So it is highly unlikely much will be heard of him that is positive, here in Oz or in the U.S.

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#21809 - 05/26/07 07:04 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
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Well, if science deals with facts, politics deals with illusions. Chomsky is masterful at exposing those illusions for what they are. Not only does that scare the politicians, it also causes indignation among a populace that's very comfortable with those illusions "thanks, anyway, Professor Chomsky". It's only when the government misinformation system go awry (as with Iraq) that people sit up and take notice. Even then, too many are propelled along the party line by a false sense of patriotism.

The point is, people are happy with their illusions/delusions - whether they be political or religious. It's unscientific, it's short-sighted - at it's worst it's genocidal - but it's understandable.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#21810 - 05/26/07 07:23 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Ellis]
samwik Offline
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I think Norm Chomsky's knowledge of how language can be used to manipulate is probably what led him to become so politically active. In the current political climate, he eloquently and radically presents one side.
He did start out as a sort of linguistic philosopher. Now it seems as if he spends half his time defending against responses from the other side.
I think he would appreciate Al Gore's new book Assault on Reason.

~Samwik...

http://www.chomsky.info/whatsnew.htm
Making Sense of What Doesn't Make the News, by Antonia Zerbisias, The Toronto Star (May 18, 2007). An excerpt:
Here at the University of Windsor, where some 300 scholars, students and media guerrillas are revisiting Edward S. Herman and Noam Chomsky's groundbreaking "propaganda model" on the eve of its 20th anniversary, the talk is of how to take back the public agenda and make it serve the public interest instead of the corporate bottom line.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20070105.htm
South America: Toward an Alternative Future. International Herald Tribune. January 5, 2007.
In the Cochabamba Declaration, the presidents and envoys of 12 countries agreed to study the idea of forming a continent-wide community similar to the European Union.
The declaration marks another stage toward regional integration in South America, 500 years after the European conquests. The subcontinent, from Venezuela to Argentina, may yet present an example to the world on how to create an alternative future from a legacy of empire and terror.
....Other promising developments include Telesur, a new pan-Latin American TV channel based in Venezuela and an effort to break the Western media monopoly.

http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20050716.pdf
The Resort to Fear July '05, -p.11
"Even after official inquiries have completely undermined government-media propaganda about Saddam's WMD and links to al-Qaeda, half the population continue to believe the charges, and thus support not only the invasion...."
"We cannot underestimate the threat of terror, or the cynicism of centers of power in pursuit of their own often despicable ends, or the murderous violence to which they will resort if authority is granted to them by a frightened population."

~This could easily be over on the "Language" thread, eh? smile ~SA
_________________________
Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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#21836 - 05/29/07 01:39 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: samwik]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
From: The Atheism Tapes 2 - Steven Weinberg [video length 28m]

"I have a friend - or had a friend, now dead - Abdul Salam, a very devout Muslim, who was trying to bring science into the universities in the Gulf States, and he told me that he had a terrible time because, although they were very receptive to technology, they felt that science would be a corrosive to religious belief and they were worried about it. Damn it, I think they were right. It is corrosive to religious belief, and it's a good thing too." [26:58 - 27:35]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2260129385438753065&q=The+Atheism+Tapes&hl=en
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#21912 - 06/05/07 02:06 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
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I have enjoyed reading the Atheism Tapes. However I, as a non-scientist (in the biggest way possible), believe that basically science will always be unacceptable to orthodox religion. Science constantly challenges and tests existing paradigms and beliefs; religions, on the other hand, encourage acceptance of, and unquestioning faith in their beliefs. Also- to return to a favourite point of mine, all religions need a belief in the supernatural or the divine to function, and science, while accomodating this for some believers, does not need it.

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#21913 - 06/05/07 02:43 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Ellis: "Science constantly challenges and tests existing paradigms and beliefs; religions, on the other hand, encourage acceptance of, and unquestioning faith in their beliefs."

As long as religious 'beliefs' continue to demand ignorance of science, and propagate delusions and lies about physical reality, they will be roundly and justly condemned.

_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#21914 - 06/05/07 05:58 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: redewenur]
Ellis Offline
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Registered: 01/08/07
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I agree rede- but there is also the point that science is ready to test its OWN conclusions too, something that religion usually discourages, often by punishment of the offender. In religion only one point of view can be considered, only one point of view can be right.

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#21915 - 06/05/07 07:37 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: Ellis]
redewenur Offline
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Registered: 02/14/07
Posts: 1840
Certainly true, Ellis. There's more to the danger of religion than the threat to science. Religious assertions of other kinds, equally devoid of rationality, are a threat to anyone who fails to accept those assertions.

For these reasons, religion IS NOT the answer. Irrational institutions cannot be relied upon to uphold sound ethical and moral systems, and the whole of recorded history provides plentiful evidence that.

Science IS the answer. Not only is it a requirement for sustainable civilization, it is also rational and universally appilicable. Its rationality does nothing to impede the development of ethical and moral societies.
_________________________
"Time is what prevents everything from happening at once" - John Wheeler

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#21917 - 06/05/07 08:33 AM Re: Is Science the answer? [Re: redewenur]
terrytnewzealand Offline
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Amen.


Edited by terrytnewzealand (06/05/07 08:38 AM)

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