Science a GoGo's Home Page Forums General Discussion Not-Quite-Science Forum Dinosaurs on Noahs Ark

A New Museum states, Dinosaurs were on Noah's Ark.

The Christian creators of a $27 million sprawling museum near Cincinnati that opened Saturday, drew snickers from the media and condemnation from U.S. scientists, and even moderate Christians who believe God.

The Museum states that "we have given people an opportunity to hear information that is not readily available .....That the Bibles first book, Genesis, is the literal truth. In that God created the Heavens and the Earth in six days about 6,000 years ago"

Here exhibits show the Grand Canyon took just days to form during Noah's flood, Dinosaurs coexisted with humans, and had a place on Noah's Ark, and that Cain married his sister to people the earth,....among other Biblical wonders.

Scientists, secularists and moderate Christians have pledged to protest the museum's public opening this Monday. An airplane trailing a "Thou Shalt Not Lie" banner buzzed overhead during the museum's opening news conference.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/wtMostRead/idUKN2621240720070526

Thoughts***
A Museum, is a building for exhibiting natural historic objects.
Clearly, this should not be called a Museum.
I also believe that, unfortunately, it will weaken Christianity, in the long term.

On page 2 of the article there is the information that 50% of Americans believe that humans were created by God some time in the last 10,000 years.

Can this be true? How could this have happened? Other countries/people do not believe this, and most christians seem to be able to reconcile the idea of gradual growth and change (ie evolution) with their faith. Why can't Americans?

This isn't a museum, it's Fantasy Island and Love Boat all in one!!

Yes, Ellis, I've seen the figure of 50% on a couple of websites, and I think (though I'm not certain) that it was also quoted by Prof. Steven Pinker (cognitive scientist, Harvard). I'll try to check it out. Maybe people will begin to understand the reaction of scientists and educationists. Do you suppose they might be concerned about the potential of unreason to undermine American civilization? Well, it's already happening, apparently with the implicit support of the President.

"The museum...has been set up by Ken Ham, an Australian evangelist"

"'Since President Bush's re-election we have been getting more membership applications than we can handle,' said Mr Ham"

Creation Museum walkthrough:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/walkthrough/

"T. rex — the real king of the beasts. That’s the terror that Adam’s sin unleashed! You’ll run into this monster lurking near Adam and Eve. How’s this possible? Find out soon!"

"Everywhere you turn, science confirms the biblical account!"
_____________________

Religious brainwashing in the classroom, by the selective teaching of half truths, and the careful omission of overwhelming evidence, is probably rampant:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp

"As a teacher, I found that whenever I taught the students what I thought were the ‘facts’ for creation, then their other teacher would just re-interpret the facts. The students would then come back to me saying, ‘Well sir, you need to try again.’

However, when I learned to teach my students how we interpret facts, and how interpretations are based on our presuppositions, then when the other teacher tried to reinterpret the facts, the students would challenge the teacher’s basic assumptions. Then it wasn’t the students who came back to me, but the other teacher! This teacher was upset with me because the students wouldn’t accept her interpretation of the evidence and challenged the very basis of her thinking."

Ellis,

I really wonder about these surveys. I'd sure like to know the exact question. Sadly, much of the general population has a very poor working knowledge of history or even a timeline that places events in correct order. I've observed a common paradigm in people who don't highly value education. They think history started back in the early 18- or 1900's. Anything before that, was thousands or millions of years ago ("back in the Flintstone age"). They often don't distinguish between 'thousands' or 'millions' and even 'billions' of years ago.

My wife and I call these people Jay-walkers (after the Jay Leno bit where he asks questions of people on the street). He gets answers such as, 'Jesus was born in 1835,' or 'Jesus was born 50 million years ago. The same answers come for questions about the Civil War, the Roman Empire, or George Washington.
I find that if you take enough time, and ask the right questions, sometimes you can get a more reasonable response. Still not very encouraging....

I just saw one of those "50% surveys" last night (video of evolution lecture), I'll see if there's a reference.
=

"Do you suppose they might be concerned about the potential of unreason to undermine American civilization?" -redewenur

I sure hope they're concerned, I know I am!

Rede, that second link was scary.
It was so logical that it almost had me converted!

Those other teachers need to give the kids better debating/logic skills. More on that link later, maybe.


~SA

We've all ignored the BIG HUGE question. Do the Adam and Eve figures have navels??

Ellis, you might like to read this:

"Trouble in the Garden"
http://www.abarnett.demon.co.uk/atheism/eden.html

It's a cynical but humorous retort to creationism.

Great site Rede--Thanks.

The tummy button question remains unanswered, but apparently one of these famous dinosaurs has a saddle!!!!! I am, I must admit, still a bit sceptical of this fact, reported on the TV news at the opening.

It's caused bewildered attention here in Oz as the guy who designed it (or planned it or something ) is an Aussie. Here he could never have built such a thing, but we do have a lot of very BIG THINGS---like the Big Banana, the Big Merino, (a sheep), the Big Lobster, the Big Pineapple and my favourite the Big Ned Kelly, who is a famous (and evidently, enormous, 19thC bank robber), so maybe that is where he got the idea!! These strange objects are surprisingly popular, and often the sole tourist attraction of an area, so maybe it is the same with the Creation Museum!? After all the dinosaurs are BIG.

I agree with Samwik. Those links of Redewenur's are frightening.

I wonder how Noah got all those dinosaurs onto his ark. Even their eggs would be pretty large. I think the best tesponse to the museum is to laugh at it.

Regarding statues in Oz: I like the poem that inspired the dog and the tuckerbox five, or is in nine, miles from Gundagai. Not a bigger than life statue though.

I'm not sure what "fact" you're talking about, but I'm hoping it is still this one from above....

Disbelief in Evolution:

Do you believe all plants and animals have evolved from other species or not?

Have =49% ; Not Sure =6% ; Have Not = 45%

Harris Poll; June 2005; N=1000 Adults

Video of a poster in an HHMI lecture.

See, I just think that's a poorly worded question.
Who commissioned this poll?
Who wrote the question?
Did they have to use the word "believe?"

If I was a jay-walker, I'd say "Hey, I don't think plants AND animals evolved from another species!"

There is this Harris poll also:
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=061031235233.s0l4o4wy&show_article=1

...The survey conducted by Harris Poll found that 42 percent of US adults are not "absolutely certain" there is a God compared to 34 percent who felt that way when asked the same question three years ago.
....As to whether God controls events on Earth, 29 percent believe that to be the case while 44 percent said God "observes but does not control what happens on Earth".

...also...
Among the various religious groups, 76 percent of Protestants, 64 percent of Catholics and 30 percent of Jews said they are "absolutely certain" there is a God while 93 percent of Christians who describe themselves as "Born Again" feel certain God exists.

When questioned on whether God is male or female, 36 percent of respondents said they think God is male, 37 percent said neither male nor female and 10 percent said "both male and female."
Only one percent think of God as a female....
...well, it's nice to be special!

The survey was conducted online between October 4 and 10 among 2,010 US adults.

That evolution poll [N = 1000 Adults] sounds like a land-line survey {...in one state; nationwide?}.
That'd be a very different population than an online survey, I'd think.
...to say the least!

What's the deal with surveys? ...sounds like a new topic....


~SA

Hiya Terry,

I was serious about that too. That site:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v22/i1/creation.asp
is using very sophisticated techniques to sneak their "logic" into the zeitgeist.

...usually I avoid writing about politics, but as an example....

I was immediately reminded of the recent (10yr.+) Rovian political techniques of organizing, using systematized data mining, targeting, etc., and co-opting various media and focusing the debate on gay, flag-burning, married stem cells.

Again, do they teach logic, propaganda, and/or debating skills anymore in the public schools?


~SA

Rede's site was interesting as well as scary. The sheer determination to prove the unprovable and the complete disregard for any other point of view is what I find most unsettling, indeed repugnant is not too strong a word. There is such contempt and arrogance in the whole tone.

Why is this whole theory so successful and taken so seriously in the US when it hardly raises a ripple elsewhere? Is there something in that society that encourages it? I mean to say, the whole museum thing is very silly-- and we should not be making a big serious deal of it as it really doesn't warrant so much attention, does it?

I imagine the museum's main purpose is to justify the donations that I'm sure have been made. I'd also guess that a huge majority of its patrons will not need any more convincing.

Though if I were a teacher, I could see that field trip as a great opportunity to do some teaching.

~SA

p.s. or maybe it's more like a re-education center for those with doubts?

For a quick answer [my thoughts on this are] people are scared and tired of change. Look at the news, look at TV (CSI mayhem: SVU), look at the jobs, look at the future.

Fundemental religion is the simplist, all-encompassing answer; and it maintains the status quo. It is a comfortable, insulating, turning inwards.

I guess it's the same reason fundementalism is rising on the other side. Hmmmm, well probably at least some parallels.

~SA

Ellis: "Why is this whole theory so successful and taken so seriously in the US when it hardly raises a ripple elsewhere?"

Remarkable isn't it?

There's a fairly new cult that's been introduced to Thailand. It has a large number of followers from the middle branches of the education tree - especially teachers. Rank and status is achieved by a kind of pyramid sales scheme - if you can recruit a number a people, then you are promoted. If your own recruits recruit yet more people, you are promoted further, and so on. If you achieve a certain rank, then you are allowed the privilege of having in your house a special shrine - which would otherwise be forbidden. This religion, supposedly based on Buddhism, is said to have been founded by a Japanese man who is now virtually deified.

Well, there's nothing of particular interest in all that. If there's one such cult then there are probably dozens. A point that is of outstanding interest is the location of the cult's headquarters. I predicted to an acquaintance, who happens to be a member, that they would find it to be California. When they found that to be true, they marvelled at my clairvoyance! Alas, clairvoyance had nothing to do with it.
______

Ellis: "I mean to say, the whole museum thing is very silly-- and we should not be making a big serious deal of it as it really doesn't warrant so much attention, does it?"

In other circumstances, it could be viewed as a quaint and picturesque symbol of harmless nuttiness. In todays USA, it appears to be far more than that. The fears expressed, in the posts above, are well founded.

Maybe th comparisons of th US to the Roman Empire was not so farfetches afterall, and we are experiencing the resulys of unchecked power as in the times of the

I pressed the wrong button and obviously had not finished typing. It's probably a silly idea but the comparison of the US with the Roman Empire was popular a few years ago, and the later decay of tthe Romans in the 1st century was resonsible for some remarkable stories of excess and downright craziness! There was a rescue of sorts, and the Pax Romana followed, but such individual power must inevitably be lost. Maybe this is the result of decay, misuse of power and the despair that samwik mentions.

Ellis: "It's probably a silly idea but..."

There's nothing silly about it, but it's difficult to argue the case.

"The many-sidedness of a society and civilization like the Greco-Roman and the perplexing breadth of the issues raised by its disappearance give great range for personal interpretation." From: "History and the Fall of Rome" by R. F. Arragon

Which underlines why it's not always easy to learn from history.

Anyway, in the case of Rome, here are some proposed contributory factors:

- Over expansion and dilution by foreign cultures
- Economic unsustainability: trade deficit, hoarding of bullion, looting by barbarians.
- Disownment and isolation of Roman communities in foreign lands (Britain, for example), due to the above.
- Religious controversy (already)
- Vandals
- Division of the Empire into east and west
- Lead poisoning (already)

See this link for details: http://ancienthistory.about.com/cs/romefallarticles/a/fallofrome.htm

Due to the complexities, I guess we should try to view the present situation within its particular context. It may be complex, but we do know a great deal more about it.

And here's what happened in NZ recently. A protest (by three thousand people) against religious tolerance. Protest by Christian groups of course:

http://www.tv3.co.nz/News/NationalNews/tabid/184/articleID/27923/Default.aspx

Ellis wrote:

"the comparison of the US with the Roman Empire was popular a few years ago"

It's still nice to call the US president George W. Caesar. As Redewenur points out there are many similarities.

I ran across a little info. re: parallels with US and Romans.

Roman Empire parallel: They eventually outsourced their military to Visagoths, Vandals, Assyrians, Egyptians, etc., as well as using private armies. ...Haliburton, KBR, Blackwater, etc....

I'm sure most will not need convincing, but I intend to make a little pilgramage there, myself. I generally try to see any campy, roadside attraction that I pass. I've been to the Corn Palace, Wall Drug, Carhenge, and others. My inlaws live in the SW corner of Ohio, so I MUST SEE THE CREATION MUSEUM next time I go there. My parents-in-law are both Bible thumpers, so they might join me.