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RicS Offline OP
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The Validity of SAT (Surface Air Temperature) Data and Problems with such Data

Warning:
Loooong Post

Note 2: Copy of a post that did not seem to appear in the forum list for some strange reason.

This is another new thread started from another thread because of my idea of wanted a single issue discussed, if possible, within one thread. The thread this came from was “Issues with Global Land Surface Temp Trends” and the specific topic was the reference made by Canuck to a research paper http://blue.atmos.colostate.edu/publications/pdf/R-321.pdf.

To Amaranth Rose. This paper is no where near 90 odd pages long. It is really only about 25 pages when the numbering, double-spacing, pages of citations and graphs at the end are taken into account. I do sympathise with anyone attempting to read it however. The language, in my view is obtuse, overly complex, and full of acronyms. The paper could easily have been written in English any reasonably well education person could understand without detracting from any of the technical nature of the paper. Unfortunately, this is true with a very large number of scientific papers and certainly is not limited to climate research. I sometimes wonder whether this is a hangover from the way the authors were taught that papers had to be presented or to some extent still part of the “exclusive club syndrome”. If it is written in dense enough language specific to a particular field of endeavour then it can only be deciphered by those expert in the field and thus it is “protected” from being, heaven forbid, available to the lay public who may misinterpret what is really being said.

The paper doesn’t seem to present anything new at all. It seems to be a reference to research done by a number of climate scientists and related experts over the past few years. Certainly, I didn’t find anything in it that I didn’t know before. The authors do seem to demonstrate a pro global warming bias even though the data they are presenting often does not support a general warming can be concluded from the data that is currently available unless adequately corrected. While the conclusions are somewhat vague, it does seem that the authors agree that it is really not possible to properly correct the data and that what has been previously spurned as irrelevant and very minor issues could actually have very large effects on the variation of the data between the real trend and that demonstrated by the data.

Somewhat disappointing is that this paper does not match the various problems with the data to the major variations between the reported SAT averages and those reported by Balloon and Satellite Data. Considering some of the figures used in magnitude levels greater than the enter alleged global warming over the last 120 years, the issue is relevant to what was being discussed.

The paper fails to mention averaging problems and just how biased these are, although I guess it could be argued that the paper was looking at physical reasons for data discrepancies. It also seems to whitewash the bias that the various errors introduced into the data collection is not random and therefore is not something that just simply averages out.

Examples are used such as the sealing of a car park, which then fades in colour before being resealed, or of a tree that grows before being cut down. Figures of some of the enormous effects these can have on the data are provided but the paper does not mention that pretty much every single problem to which the paper refers does not result in a random modification to the data but rather to an apparent warming trend when there may be no real warming trend at all. Sure, the sealing of a road near a weather station will result in a sudden jump in the recorded temperature and the fading of the road over time will lead to a slight decrease in that jump, however, overall the trend is for the recorded temperature to be higher. Same with the vegetation although this one is not as obvious. Weather stations were near vegetation very commonly until the 60s or the 70s and it was during this period that the science of meteorology really started to be a science, especially in the US. In other areas of the world, the process was delayed a bit. It became clear to those who were responsible for weather stations that having them in the shade is inconsistent and what generally happened was the shade was removed or the weather station was moved. If it was a big beautiful tree that shaded the post office then it was the weather station that moved. The recorded temperatures increased substantially because of all these moves but it is very rare to find any records of such a move. Often you need to actually locate photographs of the building at different times to determine what moves did occur.

The issue of airports is touched upon but not to the extent that such weather stations actually may have biased the world’s recorded weather. Airports changed over time and their recording systems went from rudimentary to often the most hi-tech of all weather stations for a country. These are locations where movement of the weather station occurs frequently, very rarely with any documentation and the movements, especially from the era of jet aircraft again introduced a major bias of the recorded temperatures being warmer.

Overall, what this research does demonstrate is just how appalling unreliable SAT data really is if it is to be used as a comparison of temperatures over time. The record coldest day is unlikely to be the day that the weather station has on record. The record hottest day likewise is unlikely to be the same. The wettest day has a better chance but unless in an open field even this would very much depend on the physical location of weather stations. For most people’s purposes, to say that a certain days was the hottest on record for 92 years, is “good enough”. But for the purposes of determining global climate trends “good enough” is nowhere near good enough.

The interesting point to all of this is I believed that we could manage to create a database of SAT that removed as much bias as possible and could be of value in general trend terms. The biggest issue to me is the consistency of data. That is, that the average being used is calculated the same way for all locations within the database. This is a big issue in itself.

But what do you do with the weather station that spent 25 years under a nice big deciduous tree and was then moved to a site near a building so that it was in shade for only a limited amount of months late in the afternoon. Do you, as the research suggests, use data from other surrounding areas so that the change can be “ironed out”. But here’s the rub. It is almost impossible to find any weather station that has had a consistent history in anything, whether it be the times of recording the temperatures, the equipment used, the location of the equipment, or changes to the direct environment around it or the more general environment in the case of urbanisation. So let’s take our 25 year under a tree weather station and we go and find the weather station 25 kms (about 15 miles) down the road. But this weather station is at an airport and during the period we want to correct that airport underwent a concrete apron expansion doubling the concrete surface of the airport. So we go 40 kms the other way, only to find that that town had a fire and it lost its weather station records for three years (if you think this is rare, go to the NASA site and look at pretty much any location graph – you will almost always find periods were data is missing).

I could go on for probably twenty or thirty pages myself on problems with the data, why such problems are rarely random, why they have especially in the 80s on been an accelerating bias towards increasing the reported temperature, with citations, data references, anecdotes etc but I think, as dry as the report is, it goes a long way to questioning the data everyone uses to “prove” global warming, with a huge amount of supporting research to back it up.


Regards


Richard


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"Note 2: Copy of a post that did not seem to appear...." -R.
It's just way down there (or on page 2). wink

"The language, in my view is obtuse, overly complex...." -R.
Gee, I loved it. Hmmm, wonder why.... smile


I'll read over your post again to see if there is some specific comment to make; but everytime I think about that paper, I want to make one general comment.

Thus:
"...what has been previously spurned as irrelevant and very minor issues could actually have very large effects on the variation of the data between the real trend and that demonstrated by the data." -R.

I agree with you, I wouldn't say irrelevant either; but I'd lean more toward "minor," rather than "very minor" or "very large effects."

I said something like this before (but without numbers); but from reading that paper, I'd estimate that at most (on average) we're looking at a 20% error on variation. And there are so many confounding influences. Could there be any combination of influences that were all additive (or subtractive)? With some cancelling, I'd expect a 10% error at most. Even if 'they' are making it worse by trying to "adjust" the data, I still think these numbers hold as roughly valid.

I know I'm just free-ballin' here; but seriously, do you think the lack of precision is great enough to discount the numbers completely?

Certainly using these data to prove greenhouse effects is more problematic.
As I said before, we should be measuring heat and not temperature.

I'd think that we could even throw out the surface temperature data and just look at other temperatures (and measures of heat) to assess greenhouse effects.

What are oceanic temperatures showing? I suppose there are boundary layer problems there too, eh?

Later,

~SA


Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.
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RicS Offline OP
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G'day,

It is my contention and the basis of current research that the errors are not minor, not self cancelling, and certainly not random. Pretty much any change made to a weather station in the 20th Century resulted the weather station reporting a higher temperature. There is now a great deal of research, almost all based on relatively small locations, that shows even very minor changes such as the sealing of a nearby road to a weather station make very large differences to the weather station record.

These changes started around the 1940s in the US and other first world countries but really accelerated in the 70s and 80s. For other countries the changes occurred more recently.

If a sealed road changes the maximum temperature by 0.1 degree and the minimum by 1.2 degrees, and the research actually shows these are not unusual figures, then that weather station has increased in temperature by more than the alleged global warming over more than a century.

In my research what I found almost impossible to find was a weather station that didn't have an effect such as we are talking about. There are some stations where the effects are negative but these are really very rare indeed.

So as comparison over time, it seems SAT really suck.

As to sea air temperatures or surface ocean temperatures, it depends on which dataset you use, surprise, surprise. The only records that have real consistency are the Admiratly records and these do not show any warming trend over the past 200 years beyond the major warming that pretty much had to balance the end of the LIA. Some datasets do show warming but consistency is a very big issue. There is now data of about 30 years using satellite data or computerised bouys and these show a slight warming.


Regards


Richard


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G'day Richard,

Certainly thought provoking.
I've started writing several different replys, but....

I was thinking of the 20th century temperature record and the downturn between WWII and the 1970's (when we cut particulates and sulfates); and wondering why that wasn't an example of how the record shows overall trends (even if somwhat inaccurate).

I know how you feel about the "modernization trends" at weather stations. "they have especially in the 80s on been an accelerating bias towards increasing the reported temperature..." -R.(#21698)

So what explains the two-year downturn in temp. increase after Mt. Pinatubo (back in '91?), that shows up in the record.

Later, wink

~~SA

p.s. ...something about 'superimposed over a background,' but...?


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RicS Offline OP
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G'day Samwick,

I don't quite get this argument that the decline in temperatures was due to a "cleaning up" in the 40s to the 70s as the rate of particulate smog doesn't coincide with that period at all and the world isn't confined to the US. The area of coverage of this particulate smog is not all that huge in relation to the world and when the US, Canada and Europe started to clean up visible smog the third world was more than making up for changes in the first world countries.

The Sulphates arguments are used over and over to explain away the overall cooling, according to the SAT, for the Continental US in the past 100 years. The trouble is the pollution being argued as the reason for the cooling is not as widespread as the cooling trend and not necessarily in the the right areas. The whole thing does not fit into a nice neat box, either in support of sulphates being the reason for cooling that otherwise would be warming or that the US really is cooling (to a tiny degree) sulphates or lack of sulphates not withstanding.

As to the Mt Pinatubo example, there is a warming trend to a very small degree according to the Satellite and Balloon data in the period from 1980 until the present. Assume that there is a problem with the data in that there is a background bias due to such things as inceases of air temperature around weather station recording devices because of heat sinks such as paved roads. The data will still show trends especially sharp ones but may not be accurate in the long term.

Comparing the satellite data to the Surface Air Data shows that large changes show up in both data sets. The 1998 very hot year because of a peak in El Nino shows up pretty much the same in both data sets and other trends similarly show up.

The trouble is that the satellite data and the balloon data only goes back to 1979, so the problems with the SAT for the previous 50 or so years cannot be compared to another method of data collection to determine whether there is any trend actually exists. That only gives an accurate picture of global temperature for a bit over 30 years and it seems that the satellite data is mostly ignored or its veracity is called into dispute because of the most minor variations that may have occurred over the collection period.


Regards


Richard


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Originally Posted By: samwik
I've started writing several different replys (in my head), but....

I was thinking of the 20th century temperature record and the downturn between WWII and the 1970's, followed by a sharper upturn (when we cut particulates and sulfates); and wondering why that wasn't an example of how the record shows overall trends (even if somwhat inaccurate).

Jeepers! I can be a real idiot sometimes.
The highlighted part added above should clarify. I'm gonna have to start reading what I write! smile

Fortunately, you knew what I was trying to say.

I'll get back to you on the sulfate/particulate thing.

Now about the temperature....
"Comparing the satellite data to the Surface Air Data shows that large changes show up in both data sets. The 1998 very hot year because of a peak in El Nino shows up pretty much the same in both data sets and other trends similarly show up. " -R.

I'm assuming the Mt. Pinatubo dip also shows up in both surface & satellite data.

I've been going back and forth in my mind trying to compose something that'll convey my thinking on this problem.
Not being very successful, I'll just list a couple of thoughts.

The relative precision of the different data sets seems comparable, so why not assume the surface data is similarily precise going back even before the satellite data?

I'm not familiar with satellite measuring parameters, but I'd guess that only some of the problems with surface measurements might also affect satellite measurements.

The accuracy of these data could be off (hypothetically) by large amounts (even enough to show warming during actual cooling), but do we think this is so?


All (?) the canaries similarily show us there is a general warming. Are there any canaries that point to cooling (even on a local scale)?

I'd argue that our canaries are more accurate measures of temperature than our sensors, but that we can't be nearly as precise about the canaries as we are with our sensors.

We're arguing about the magnitude (not the direction) of temperatue change aren't we?

Taken together, I still feel the accuracy of temp. data couldn't be off by more than 20%.
Do you have any sense of the absolute error?

I'm putting a big emphasis on the difference between accuracy and precision in this post. In my mind there is a difference, like the difference between truth & faith. I hope this comes across above.

I might try to refocus this post later, but for now....

Thanks,
~SA




Pyrolysis creates reduced carbon! ...Time for the next step in our evolutionary symbiosis with fire.

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